Mary Co-Redemptrix ... Pope says No and I am confused

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

Will there be anything else?

Sounds like you want to wind it down. I am fine with that.

I think you should wrestle with the questions I posed.

Not to prove I am right.

But just to get you thinking in terms of layers and/or senses of Scripture.

This will open up a whole new dimension.

Your handle or CAF name is “EndTimes”.

Well if you study the EndTimes,
this way of thinking will open new doors for you.

The late John Cardinal Henry Newman phrases this concept or principle this way . . . .

. . . .thus is the future of the Christian Church typified in the past Jewish history.

The CCC opens up these senses to you in concept in CCC 113-117 (going by memory so I might be off one).

Listen to Dr. Brant Pitre’s end times works.
Read his book.

Jesus, the Tribulation, and the End of the Exile: Restoration Eschatology and the Origin of the Atonement Paperback – March 1, 2006​

by Brant Pitre (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0801031621/ref=dbs_a_def_awm_hsch_vapi_taft_p1_i5

(Ouch! $550+ bucks! I got my copy for $16.00)

Listen to Dr. Scott Hahn’s series of audios on the Book of Revelation. And Heaven’s Mass. Several times.

Teach yourself to think this way, and
justification (the PARTICIPATION aspect),
Redemption (the PARTICIPATION aspect),
Christ’s body and blood (the PARTICIPATION aspect),
God’s Fatherhood (the PARTICIPATION aspect),
the Priesthood (the PARTICIPATION aspect),
etc. will all become easy to see.

It will open new riches to you when you read Sacred Scripture.

Participation is tough because that means we are called to be accountable.

May God continue to be with you EndTimes in your studies.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[EndTimes]

Sounds like you want to wind it down. I am fine with that.

Thank you for picking up on that…

I’ve said my peace/piece all throughout this thread…

 

[Cathoholic]

EndTimes . . .

I’ve said my peace/piece all throughout this thread…

Well thanks for your excellent (name removed by moderator)ut.

I mean that by the way.

As for me? I will keep adding little bits and pieces so this thread can be used by people usefully in the future on searches on this topic.

 

[annad347]

I would suggest that you re-read my post. Nowhere did I say that one could not go to the King; nowhere did I say that the only way to get a request heard is by petitioning the Queen Mother.

and I said if no where did I write did… if not that you did.

I also said what you do or don’t do is between you and God… which is the same thing you just said to me.

so if you are going to invite me to reread your post to understand what you are saying… please have the respect to do the same thing for me.

I never said anyone said anything, I said it was my opinion and that some people were just one Pope away from saying it, not that they did… okay, I didn’t say some in the 2nd post (blame that on spell check), but the first time I said what I said, I did say some.

What you do, or don’t do is between God and you. Just like what I do or don’t do is between The King and I ( get it, The King and I… the movie, its a joke don’t take it personal) between God and I.

even made a cute joke about it, can’t believe no one thought that was funny. The King and I… The King, The Lord, God… get it? The King and I… (taps the mic) hello is this thing on?

 

[annad347]

I can see your love of God from your posts. You are a fine Christian.

Thank you, I see it in you as well.

I never said anyone said Mary was a redeemer… I said they were one Pope away from saying she is.

I also said I didn’t read the entire thread but the few post I remember reading it was stated that Mary didn’t have the title officially because there wasn’t a Pope willing to give it to her yet, but it didn’t matter cause she already had the title… which lead me to my other thought.

And St. Paul sees the WHOLE Church as having a participation in that too!

so in essence we are all co-Redemptix. (sp?), which I agree with… we are all members of God’s church… and have a responsibility to help each other in the name of The Lord.

and for the record, not that it matters to anyone other then Catholics, I was baptized Catholic.

 

[Cathoholic]

annad347 . . .

so in essence we are all co-Redemptix. (sp?), which I agree with

I am glad you can see that annad347.

For you to see (what I call)
"The Gospel of Participation"
is very spiritually deep.

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ must have been (is) very good to you to gift you with that vision.

A lot of good Christians don’t have those gifts.

Another tangent to this, is that we are not all endowed with the same share of Christ taking us into His one, once for all Redemption.

The Church makes the point implicitly for example, that the Blessed Virgin Mary has a much deeper share than Cathoholic.

VATICAN II Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son, as the most holy mother of God who was involved in the mysteries of Christ: she is rightly honoured by a special cult in the Church. – Lumen Gentium 66

CCC 618 excerpt — In fact Jesus desires to associate with his redeeming sacrifice those who were to be its first beneficiaries. 456
This is achieved supremely in the case of his mother, who was associated more intimately than any other person in the mystery of his redemptive suffering.457

CCC 968 Her role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."511

LUKE 2:34-35 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against 35 (and a sword will pierce through your own soul also), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”

(Allow me to use myself in a self-deprecating manner here for rhetorical effect. This way nobody else takes it “personal”.)

NOT LUKE 2:34-35 34 and Simeon blessed them and said to Mary his mother, “Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising of many in Israel, and for a sign that is spoken against 35 (and a sword will pierce through Cathoholic’s own soul also to this same degree that you will even), that thoughts out of many hearts may be revealed.”

NOT CCC 968 Cathoholic’s role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way he cooperated by his obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior’s work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason he is a brother extrodinaire’ to us.

Of course our Lord did not take His most holy sacred flesh from “Cathoholic”.

No. Jesus took His Sacred Flesh from the Blessed Virgin Mary. The same Blessed Virgin who when there, was never wavering in adoration, love, and devotion to Her fully Divine and fully Human Son.

I do disagree that some people will be calling the Blessed Mother our Redeemer (except in the context of “co” or “cum” - Coredemptrix as many of the Popes and Church documents have explicitly stated and as the Bible has implicitly stated) which people like me already do.

 

[annad347]

I do disagree that some people will be calling the Blessed Mother our Redeemer (except in the context of “co” or “cum” - Coredemptrix as many of the Popes and Church documents have explicitly stated and as the Bible has implicitly stated) which people like me already do.

and I’m afraid one day someone will. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone doesn’t already believe it… but since that is not stated, hinted or even thought to be made official in the Catholic church I’m good.

 

[otjm]

Okay, I owe an apology for reading too quickly.

Given the emphasis of collegiality per Vatican 2, I would not presume that a Pope - this one, the next one, or someone down the line from them would decide on their own to use either Co-Redemptrix, or for that matter, Reparatrix (another one floating around out there). And given a reasonably long history of not officially giving either of those titles to Mary, I suspect that there would not be a consensus. That there has been a discussion on-going for more than a couple of centuries indicates some substance to the idea; that it has failed to come to the fruition desired by those who hold forth on it should also be acknowledged.

Which is another way of saying it is not on my worry list.

Or want list.

 

[otjm]

Looks like the book possibly may be out of print?

 

[Cathoholic]

otjm . . .

Looks like the book possibly may be out of print?

It is out of print.

And the used prices now are outrageous.

But if you go to Amazon and read the reviews, it tells you how you can get a pdf copy of Dr. Pitre’s doctoral dissertation. Which is all this book is – a book form of his doctoral dissertation.

Or you can watch from time to time on your favorite used book websites. (Also try calling Loome Theological booksellers and asking them if they have that in stock).

Sooner or later someone will put the book back in print (Pitre should write a second updated edition and re-print the book that form. He undoubtedly has been exposed to more rifinements since then and I am sure his additions to the book would be worthy of including).

 

[Dolphin]

I could be wrong but last I knew Mary didn’t die on the cross to redeem sins. But I could be wrong…

 

[Cathoholic]

Dolphin . . . .

I could be wrong but last I knew Mary didn’t die on the cross to redeem sins. But I could be wrong…

Yes but did you know a sword pierced Her own soul too?

And were you aware that this piercing the Blessed Virgin Mary underwent not only affected Her personally but was so that the secret thoughts of many would be laid bare?

 

[Dolphin]

If Mary said no to the angel and would not accept being impregnated by the Holy Spirit, someone else would have said yes. As such, redemption depended on someone saying yes but not Mary specifically

 

[Cathoholic]

Dolphin . . . .

If Mary said no to the angel and would not accept being impregnated by the Holy Spirit, someone else would have said yes. As such, redemption depended on someone saying yes but not Mary specifically

How do you know?

 

[Dolphin]

Because if nobody said yes then Jesus isn’t born and humanity isn’t saved. God wouldn’t create an impossible plan

 

[Cathoholic]

Dolphin . . .

Because if nobody said yes then Jesus isn’t born and humanity isn’t saved. God wouldn’t create an impossible plan

Other than your own thoughts, what are you basing this on?

Humanity did not DESERVE salvation.

If the Blessed Mother did not say “yes”, you have no evidence of some sort of “plan b” here.

 

[Cathoholic]

Dolphin . . .

As such, redemption depended on someone saying yes but not Mary specifically

Bold mine.

You are correct here Dolphin. Redemption DID depend on someone saying “yes”. (And that “someone” of course is the Blessed Virgin Mary.)

That is WHY Her role as Coredemptrix begins at the Annunciation. Even before Calvary.

VATICAN II - This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation. . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate , Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix. [16]
This, however, is so understood that it neither takes away anything from nor adds anything to the dignity and efficacy of Christ the one Mediator.[17]

No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source.

The Church does not hesitate to profess this subordinate role of Mary, which it constantly experiences and recommends to the heartfelt attention of the faithful, so that encouraged by this maternal help they may the more closely adhere to the Mediator and Redeemer. - Excerpt from section 62 DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH - LUMEN GENTIUM

 

[Dolphin]

Why would an almighty God in His infinite love and mercy who wants to share that will all of humanity for eternity have His plan be ruined because a non-divine human said “ehh nah”

 

[Dolphin]

Isn’t that saying she is equal to Jesus? Co-Presidents are 50/50. You are saying Mary/Jesus are 50/50? God could have sent His son to earth without a human birth I would assume (since God is all powerful) but the human birth shows humility. So Mary wasn’t needed yes?

 

[Cathoholic]

Dolphin . . . .

Why would an almighty God in His infinite love and mercy who wants to share that will all of humanity for eternity have His plan be ruined because a non-divine human said “ehh nah”

To display an even more Almighty plan where the love for God was so deep and by free will, that there was no “ehh nah”.