Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
The RCC does not teach Mary’s parents were sinless. And? Please stick to the issue,Mary,not her parents.
I am sticking to the issue. Mary’s parents are necessarily a part of this issue. Because you seem to believe that God cannot cause perfection to be conceived by a sinner. In fact, earlier, you called that idea “absurd” and “contradictory,” remember?
No they are not part of the issue. You mean God cannot separate Mary from the rest of humanity? Accoding to you apparently not!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
God had a SINNER conceive PERFECTION? Is it me or is that belief ABSURD and contradictory?
So then here is my question: If Mary’s parents were sinners, and Mary was sinless, then how does your logic follow? How can God have sinners [Mary’s parents] conceive perfection [the sinless mother of God] ?? Don’t you see that it is your belief which is contradictory?
And God is not capable of allowing Mary to be born without sin,even her parents were sinners? Why do you place limts on God?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
LOL Contradictory in my beliefs? Hate to rain on your parade,but your belief is novel to the ancient church. Take the time to read church history and acknowledge how contradictory your position is to ancient Christianity.
Actually, it is your position that is contrary to the early church. Augustine himself taught that no person born of natural procreation (“of a man and a woman”) is free from sin. With the exception of Christ alone, everyone since Adam and Eve were born in this way, including Mary. He called the immaculate birth of Jesus a “novelty” and this could not be the case, if only a generation earlier his mother had experienced conception and birth apart from sin.
WRONG! I do not thnink so! My position is EXACTLY what the early church taught. As for Augustine? Then explain the following:
“Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so,
I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?” (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).
“It is therefore an observed and settled fact, that no man born of a man and a woman, that is, by means of their bodily union, is seen to be free from sin. Whosoever, indeed, is free from sin, is free also from a conception and birth of this kind. Moreover, when expounding the Gospel according to Luke, he says: It was no cohabitation with a husband which opened the secrets of the Virgin’s womb; rather was it the Holy Ghost which infused immaculate seed into her unviolated womb. For the Lord Jesus alone of those who are born of woman is holy, inasmuch as He experienced not the contact of earthly corruption, by reason of the novelty of His immaculate birth; nay, He repelled it by His heavenly majesty.” (Augustine, A Treatise on the Grace of Christ, and on Original Sin).
The truth of the matter is thus: Mary was blessed, but not sinless. Christ himself is the only one who, as Augustine said, was not conceived by means of the bodily union of a man and a woman, and therefore it is him alone who is “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners” (Heb. 7:26). I hope that you will come to know the truth as it is in Jesus.
U-huh…and look at what Augustine has to say as well
“Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both” (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).
“That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, indeed, she is the Mother of that very head” (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).
Sorry,but you dead wrong and your belief is novel,accept the truth.
