Mary did not have sin

[andrewv33]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Mary DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN! You have practice a poor biblical exegesis. NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children.

Forget the common misqouted biblcial verses and terms. "Do you mean these- Matthew 13:55-56;Matthew 12:46-49;Mark 3:31-34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19-21; John 7:5; 1 Corinthians 9:5, Jude 1, (Acts 15:13; compare Acts 12:2)"

Because it does not say she gave birth to other children. Show me where it does,so I to can join the ranks of thousands of different churches. I detect a little condescension on your behalf, i am sorry if you feel distressed in some way… Lets move on then
***God commanded to be fruitful and historically from Adam onwards it was the norm to have many kids! Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.
Gen 1:28 ; Gen 8:17 ; Gen 9:1… and so on. Every descendant from Adam down to the Jews today have had many children in their family. Also the birth of Christ is more important than the birth of his brothers and sisters…no? As the bible is silent on having birthdays it is also silent on the other births after Christ, yet it does refer to his brthers and sisters . ***

It does not necessarily follow that Mary
Quote:
DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN!

Assumption? Ooppose to the assumption she did? That in itself is poor biblical exegesis. Even the early Protestant reformers disagree with the modern belief Mary had other children.

**Assumption you say? I dont know, i only sated the verses that mention Christ had brothers and sisters, BUT if the bible used the term “brother and sister” loosely throughout to define more than one meaning then i would have a different position. IT DOES NOT and therefore i do not read into the text and ignore others to validate an idea that i like/hope to believe or be part of the many denominations as you put it.

*I take the bible as is… THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR FOR ME! * 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Can you argue and show me in the bible this plainly, that Mary the mother of Christ can be a mediator for me as well as Christ?
If you can i will change my Religion status from Bible to Catholic!**

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Amen Brother!

 

[AmateurPianist]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Mary DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN! You have practice a poor biblical exegesis. NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children.

Forget the common misqouted biblcial verses and terms.

Because it does not say she gave birth to other children. Show me where it does,so I to can join the ranks of thousands of different churches.

It does not necessarily follow that Mary
Quote:
DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN!

Assumption? Ooppose to the assumption she did? That in itself is poor biblical exegesis. Even the early Protestant reformers disagree with the modern belief Mary had other children.

You aren’t quoting correctly but anyway…

Back up please

You are the one claiming

Mary DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN!

Reason you are providing

NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children.

Using your exact logic I will claim

Mary WAS NOT ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN

Reason

NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary was assumed into heaven

So which is it then…

Either
(1) Just because it is not specifically mentioned in Scripture it does not follow it is not true.

In which case it is possible Mary did have other children and it is possible she was assumed into heaven.

Or

(2) If it is not specifically mentioned in Scripture that it can not be true

In which case Mary was not assumed into heaven and Mary did not have other children.

Please tell me how one is to handle this case then.

 

[andrewv33]

psalm 135 is a very good example of repetitious prayer. “For his mercy endureth forever”. all 27 verses this phrase is repeated. Peace

what bible are you reading?
i have KJV and i cannot see “For his mercy endureth forever”

 

[teachccd]

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
This is plain simple text! Easy to understand! When you pray dont use repetition!
I speak to you and i do not change or twist the bible through human login or twist it by reason or philosophy… Remember we need to have a relationship with God

Does your bible include Psalm 136? Might you read it and then tell me what happened??

 

[teachccd]

***I take the bible as is… THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR FOR ME! ***1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

***Can you argue and show me in the bible this plainly, that Mary the mother of Christ can be a mediator for me as well as Christ? ***
If you can i will change my Religion status from Bible to Catholic.

I don’t know… Maybe the wedding at Cana we can see how they went to Mary and she mediated between the servants and Jesus. Her last recorded words in Scripture were, “Do whatever he tells you.” They went to her, she asked Jesus and he performed the miracle… see you at Mass! … teachccd

 

[teachccd]

Oh and I asked you earlier, Andrewv33, where in the bible is the term bible? I’m still waiting for your answer. You may have to change your religion status regardless since “bible” is unscriptural as far as the term is concerned. Where did the term “Bible” come from? Traditions of men perhaps? Shame, my friend since we should not believe anything not expicitly mentioned in Scripture. …teachccd

 

[teachccd]

***I take the bible as is… THERE IS ONLY ONE MEDIATOR FOR ME! ***1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

Yes we believe that as well but doesn’t Saint Paul exhort us to pray for one another? Now why would he say that if I should only go to Jesus or God? Am I not wasting my time having someone else pray for me? Can’t God just hear my petitions without others praying for me? Did Paul get it wrong? Did he miss the memo? For crying out loud, could Paul have been Catholic?!?!?!?

 

[andrewv33]

Does your bible include Psalm 136? Might you read it and then tell me what happened??

Repetitive prayer by pagans!
1Ki 18:26 And they took the bullock which was given them, and they dressed it, and called on the name of Baal from morning even until noon, saying, O Baal, hear us. But there was no voice, nor any that answered. And they leaped upon the altar which was made.

In every instance in the bible, even examples of Christ i have not see repetitive prayer.

Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Mat 6:8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
Mat 6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 6:11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Mat 6:12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
Mat 6:13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Very hypocritical of you to show me in the Old testament the argument of repetitive prayer yet you denounce the sabbath from the old testament! So you pick and choose what soots you best hmmmmm… But in The New Testatment you refuse even the basic example of how to pray by having a normal communication with God as you would with a person face to face… i just dont get the logic? sorry

So who are the heathen and how did they pray?
Here is a whole book on pagan prayers
seeliecourt.net/panpipe/oldchan.html
Similar?
freewebs.com/sacredstrands/paganprayerbead101.htm
History 101 the catholics did not invent rosary=Hail Mary it is adopted by Catholics and this tradition is well documented that the heathens used them in their repetitive prayer, i have been to these Buddhist temples and seen their monks use them… i was shocked at the similarity of how they pray.
I look at what the bible teaches, when it says DO NOT PRAY LIKE THE HEATHENS AND PAGANS how many of you have actually inquired and read how they pray? They did this long before you and Christ, if you mimic them than you do like them! The bible says it clear! now please lets get back to the subject!

 

[andrewv33]

Oh and I asked you earlier, Andrewv33, where in the bible is the term bible? I’m still waiting for your answer. You may have to change your religion status regardless since “bible” is unscriptural as far as the term is concerned. Where did the term “Bible” come from? Traditions of men perhaps? Shame, my friend since we should not believe anything not expicitly mentioned in Scripture. …teachccd

You must be kidding me…what traditions has to do with the bible… you truly perplex me

Bible=biblios from greek, also Greek phrase Ta biblia (“the books”) was "an expression Hellenistic Jews used to describe their sacred books several centuries before the time of Jesus…

 

[andrewv33]

Yes we believe that as well but doesn’t Saint Paul exhort us to pray for one another? Now why would he say that if I should only go to Jesus or God? Am I not wasting my time having someone else pray for me? Can’t God just hear my petitions without others praying for me? Did Paul get it wrong? Did he miss the memo? For crying out loud, could Paul have been Catholic?!?!?!?

I am sorry you you are so off the topic… i am more than happy to discuss this topic if you create one… lets focus on the task at hand.
The reason being we digress and lose sight of what is important…
Focus my friend focus:thumbsup:

 

[eucharisteo]

Dear friend indeed we are getting side tracked! But here is your answer!
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
This is plain simple text! Easy to understand! When you pray dont use repetition!
I speak to you and i do not change or twist the bible through human login or twist it by reason or philosophy… Remember we need to have a relationship with God **Psa 139:17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!
Psa 139:18 If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end. **

Be careful not to fall into this trap of being “Thinkers and Philosophers”
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Do you not realize that “The Bible” stated as your religion is idolatry? That means you worship an inanimate object. Which fundamentalist faith do you represent?

 

[teachccd]

I am sorry you you are so off the topic… i am more than happy to discuss this topic if you create one… lets focus on the task at hand.
The reason being we digress and lose sight of what is important…
Focus my friend focus:thumbsup:

I was only commenting on your reference. I quoted you, my friend. But it is obvious that you cannot answer me so we’ll leave it at that!

 

[teachccd]

You must be kidding me…what traditions has to do with the bible… you truly perplex me

Bible=biblios from greek, also Greek phrase Ta biblia (“the books”) was "an expression Hellenistic Jews used to describe their sacred books several centuries before the time of Jesus…

So your religion is Jewish? What about the term Trinity? Is that in the bible? Actually you truly perplex me…

 

[teachccd]

In every instance in the bible, even examples of Christ i have not see repetitive prayer.

Really? Then someone should have mentioned to Jesus not to repeat prayers in Matthew 26:44… Scripture states that Jesus repeated the same prayer three times. Wasn’t once enough. ? Did he forget what He preached in the same book Chapter 6 verse 7?

So there. You now have your example… God bless…teachccd

 

[andrewv33]

Really? Then someone should have mentioned to Jesus not to repeat prayers in Matthew 26:44… Scripture states that Jesus repeated the same prayer three times. Wasn’t once enough. ? Did he forget what He preached in the same book Chapter 6 verse 7?

So there. You now have your example… God bless…teachccd

I read it but it is a weak example…

1st he went to pray…
Then he returned and found the disciples sleeping
2nd then he went a second time and that was a different prayer.
Then he returned again and found them sleeping again!!! and left them sleeping!!!
3rd he weent to pray again but does not repeat the same prayer over and over and over again, he has a normal discussion with God.
The only repetition i see in the KJV is the he returned to pray 3 times… Why do you twist the words even as plain as they are in the bible? You can clearly see that the words that are in prayer are NOT REPETITIVE. … 1st he said “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” and 2nd he said "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
" the 3rd time we do not have scriptural reference … So where is he repeating the prayer…

Seriously what bible are you using? please let me know mine is the KJV

 

[teachccd]

Back to the topic at hand. God instructed the Ark of the Covenant to be lined with gold inside and out. It was to remain pure and no one was to even touch it. This was how the written Word of God was to be carried. Carried in a pure vessel and treated with the utmost reverence. Now are we to believe that the living Word of God would be carried in a stained vessel? It would have been likened to the Ten Commandments being tossed in an old shoe box. Did God change His mind? Would He want His written Word revered more highly that His living Word? Hmmm…

Logic would have it that God can do anything as Scripture states (Luke 1:37). So would it be impossible that God would create a sinless, unstained vessel in which to carry His Word? In 2 Samuel 6 we find David asking how it is that the ark of the Lord should come to him. In Luke 1:43 we find Elizabeth asking the parallel question about Mary. David leaped in front of the ark and John the baptist leaped in Elizabeth’s womb.

Typology is a very important aspect of the art and science of biblical interpretation. The OT foreshadows the New and the New fulfills the Old. If the Ark of the Covenant was to be held in higher esteem than the vessl of the living Word of God then we have a unique example of how the fulfillment was of lesser importance than the foreshadowing.

It’s easy to throw the baby out with the bath water and belittle the Mother of our Lord for the sake of being too “Catholic”. But the fact remains that our God is ineffable and He cannot be affected by our thoughts and feelings. Why do we honor Mary so highly? Because God did. Can you give me a higher honor than being asked to bring the second Person of the Trinity into the world? Can you give me a higher honor than knowing that the very flesh that covered God grew from you? Was not Mary given the most honorable task in human history? Is there anything that could even come close to carrying God in your womb?

As Catholics we could never even entertain the thought that Jesus would be reduced to someone less than the stone tablets of the Old Testament. Jesus is truly the Holy of Holies and only a pure tabernacle would suffice if we are to know the history of how God wanted His word to be carried…

Isn’t typology a wonderful gift that we have to see the whole picture? We use it in hundreds of ways to see the fulfillment of the New Testament. And what a glorious picture it paints… teachccd

 

[teachccd]

I read it but it is a weak example…

1st he went to pray…
Then he returned and found the disciples sleeping
2nd then he went a second time and that was a different prayer.
Then he returned again and found them sleeping again!!! and left them sleeping!!!
3rd he weent to pray again but does not repeat the same prayer over and over and over again, he has a normal discussion with God.
The only repetition i see in the KJV is the he returned to pray 3 times… Why do you twist the words even as plain as they are in the bible? You can clearly see that the words that are in prayer are NOT REPETITIVE. … 1st he said “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.” and 2nd he said "O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
" the 3rd time we do not have scriptural reference … So where is he repeating the prayer…

Seriously what bible are you using? please let me know mine is the KJV

Matthew 26:44 from the King James Version: “And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.”

Maybe you had your thumb in the way!!

 

[LionHeart777]

Andrew33,

Maybe we should start another thread on repititions and vain repetitions. You have been given examples in the OT and your reply was basically to call our position hypocritical because we don’t follow everything in the OT. No we don’t, no Christian does, or if they do then would be a Judaizer. We both know that we are not under the Law of Moses. We both still follow parts of the OT (i.e.: “Do not murder”) I trust, albeit not the Law of Moses. If there was something inherintly wrong with repetitive prayer than repetitive prayer would not be part of Scripture. So, you have shown us that the Bible condemns vain repetitions. Catholics agree as Jesus Christ clearly taught this. You have not established that our prayers are vain. Would you call prayer to the Living God vain? I certainly would not. Also, the Rosary started as prayer beads by monks. Sorry to go back there but I don’t want to leave things unrefuted and you, if I remember correctly, introduced this topic.

Regarding the one mediator, we have no problem with Christ being the only mediator as Hebrews clearly. We just disagree with what this means? He is indeed a unique mediator and the only one of His kind as the Scriptures teach:

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

(St. John 14:6) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+14&version=KJV)

9I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

(St. John 10:9) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2010:9&version=KJV)

25Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

(Hebrews 7:25) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews%207:25&version=KJV)

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

(1 Timothy 2:5) (biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Timothy+2:5&version=KJV)

But as one poster pointed out for you, there are others who can intercede for us before God in some respect. If others can intercede for us before God are they not mediators between God and man in at least some capacity?

1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

(biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Timothy%202:1&version=KJV)

• all web pages on this post accessed 6/ 20/ 10

 

[eucharisteo]

The bottom line Mary was a sinner, based on biblical statement, she had more children as per the bible scripture and she therefore CANNOT BE VIRGIN ANYMORE!

She also states in the bible that she is not above GOD! she is his servant! Therefore she cannot be a mediatrix.

geocities.co.jp/Technopolis-Mars/5614/pmary.htm

All based on biblical authority I take it, aye?

did you study bible at the bible school of preaching and auto mechanics? No protestant in all honesty would stand up and say such things without having definitive answers. Your assumptions based on your biblical references are inadequate to make such authoritative statements. Which faith do you claim to be…no matter time and reading will reveal your own theology, If only i didn’t loath fundamentalism so much now I’d scream “Amen”, but once I learned the lies taught and made up personal interpretations by my former faith teachers, I would be much kinder than I come across had it not been for my upbringing in that poverty of what you call Christianity.

The things you try to teach with such authority reveals a certain arrogance unmatched. My preachers at least admit that based on the scripture Mary’s virginity is unknown one way or the other. Not understanding scripture is why you believe she was full of sin like you. Now that is really arrogant.

 

[andrewv33]

Do you not realize that “The Bible” stated as your religion is idolatry? That means you worship an inanimate object. Which fundamentalist faith do you represent?

Ohhh
I am mistaken then!
Idolatry= is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object,
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: **Do you have any graven images? **

Bible=inspire Word of God
Religion=A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

So now that i have given you clear definitions, lets continue…to follow what you accused me off
So under the title of this forum “Religion”, i put “The Bible” (to imply that is what is believe in, which you said its idolatrous) that has to do with conduct, beliefs, purpose, etc… is based on the BIBLE which is the inspired word of GOD 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
21 For it was not through any human whim that men prophesied of old; men they were, but, impelled by the Holy Spirit, they spoke the words of God.

My source of inspiration is the bible, my wisdom, my learning and seeking. Some read their horoscopes, or enter into other faiths and read other books(Koran), me i read the Bible and seek guidance from it. Am i to understand that salvation is through a denominations teaching and not through the teachings of the bible? Please explain.

My friend you accuse me of idolatry through your human reasoning yet i answer you through scripture, can you retort through scripture… reminds me of the time the Pharisees accused Christ of wrong doing( Mt 12:1-21; 22-37 ; 38-50)