Mary did not have sin

[LionHeart777]

And what did Jesus know Moses meant?

OK, let’s rewind a bit, that post didn’t do much and was perhaps evasive…if it was I apologize.

We’re still hung up on Genesis 2 it seems, in which you see evidence that Adam and Eve were intimate before the fall. I don’t see how you could know that for sure from the text. Here it is again:

21 Then the Lord God cast a deep sleep upon Adam: and when he was fast asleep, he took one of his ribs, and filled up flesh for it. 22 And the Lord God built the rib which he took from Adam into a woman: and brought her to Adam. 23 And Adam said: This now is bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called woman, because she was taken out of man. 24 Wherefore a man shall leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they shall be two in one flesh. 25 And they were both naked: to wit, Adam and his wife: and were not ashamed.

(drbo.org/chapter/01002.htm) (accessed 6/ 20/ 10)

Now, the 2 becoming one flesh seems to pertain to intercourse, and perhaps, at least in Christian Theology even more. For example, it could include the rights one has over one’s spouses’ body (mutually given away to each other in the Sacrament of Marriage):

3 Let the husband render the debt to his wife, and the wife also in like manner to the husband. 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband. And in like manner the husband also hath not power of his own body, but the wife. 5 Defraud not one another, except, perhaps, by consent, for a time, that you may give yourselves to prayer; and return together again, lest Satan tempt you for your incontinency.

(drbo.org/chapter/53007.htm) (accessed 6/ 20/ 10) (emphasis mine)

This verse came to mind when I was thinking about the 2 becoming one flesh:

28 So also ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife, loveth himself. 29 For no man ever hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, as also Christ doth the church:

(Ephesians 5:28-29) (drbo.org/chapter/56005.htm) (accessed 6/ 20/ 10)

 

[eucharisteo]

Ohhh
I am mistaken then!
Idolatry= is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object,
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: **Do you have any graven images? **

Yes, it’s called my bible. I place in next to my Mary statue and worship it, splash holy water on it and then praise the wonderful existence of my goddess, Mary.

Hey, i used to believe all the same things you believe with some exceptions, you were going to hell and i wasn’t. Very true statement. You, along with the Catholics were going to hell. But of course the Catholics would get their first.

Bible=inspire Word of God
Religion=A religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

okaaaaaaaya

So now that i have given you clear definitions, lets continue…to follow what you accused me off

touchy aren’t we. Didn’t eat your Wheaties I presume.

So under the title of this forum “Religion”, i put “The Bible” (to imply that is what is believe in, which you said its idolatrous) that has to do with conduct, beliefs, purpose, etc… is based on the BIBLE which is the inspired word of GOD 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
21 For it was not through any human whim that men prophesied of old; men they were, but, impelled by the Holy Spirit, they spoke the words of God.

nothing new yet. still waiting for the punchline

My source of inspiration is the bible, my wisdom, my learning and seeking. Some read their horoscopes, or enter into other faiths and read other books(Koran), me i read the Bible and seek guidance from it. Am i to understand that salvation is through a denominations teaching and not through the teachings of the bible? Please explain.

So you seek your guidance from a book and not God? okay. but I’m following you so far.

My friend you accuse me of idolatry through your human reasoning yet i answer you through scripture, can you retort through scripture… reminds me of the time the Pharisees accused Christ of wrong doing( Mt 12:1-21; 22-37 ; 38-50)

Oh, now i see, your a god because I question your reasoning after you prove you worship a book and not God. Good we had this little chat. So I acknowledge that you’re an idolatrous worshiper of a particular book you call a bible. Glad we had this chat and that you’re clear about this now. Good luck with that.

No where in the bible does it say to use only the bible. It does however state to follow the teachings and traditions passed down by the apostles. Hmmmn, unless your bible deleted more bibles that was finally eliminated out of the KJV after they realized they were still using the deuterocanon. Did you know that the original KJV contains the deuterocanonical books of the old testament? KJV 1611 edition. Check it out. You can borrow mine.

 

[andrewv33]

Matthew 26:44 from the King James Version: “And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.”

Maybe you had your thumb in the way!!

you seem to take things out of context!!! even when it is plain english…
Munster’s Hebrew Gospel reads, “he said the same prayer”; not in the selfsame words, or in the express form he had before delivered it; for it is certain, that his second prayer is not expressed in the same form of words as the first: but the sense is, that he prayed to the same purpose; the matter and substance of his prayer was the same…

 

[andrewv33]

Yes, it’s called my bible. I place in next to my Mary statue and worship it, splash holy water on it and then praise the wonderful existence of my goddess, Mary.

Hey, i used to believe all the same things you believe with some exceptions, you were going to hell and i wasn’t. Very true statement. You, along with the Catholics were going to hell. But of course the Catholics would get their first.

Glad to see that you are providing me with biblical scripture to base your ideas on and accusations of me…
Peace and Love Brother!

 

[LionHeart777]

Continued:

Anyway, I’m just kind of thinking and/or speculating here and I’m not necessarily sure how much I am in or out of line w/ Catholic teaching (hopefully someone correct me if I am out of line.)

So, the 2 becoming 1 flesh, don’t see it happening at a specific time, from Genesis 2, rather I kind of see Scripture just teaching us about woman coming from man and the man leaving father and mother and cleaving to his wife and being joined together and becoming one flesh because of this; hence the word “Wherefore”, in the passage.

To be honest, I’m not positive that I know the meaning of the passage. But, I don’t see that it has to be read as Adam and Eve for sure having intercourse before the fall, whereas, if I understand you correctly, you seem to.

 

[LionHeart777]

Andrewv33,

You wrote:

I am mistaken then!
Idolatry= is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object,
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Do you have any graven images?

Are you aware of the disctinction between latria and dulia in Catholic theology?

According to your understanding of this passage, do you believe God commanded a man to violate this very commandment by making the Cheribum on the Ark of the Covenant? I don’t beleive He did. But,they are a likeness of something in heaven above are they not? Maybe it is your understanding of what that commandment means that needs to be revised?

 

[eucharisteo]

Glad to see that you are providing me with biblical scripture to base your ideas on and accusations of me…
Peace and Love Brother!

Hyperbole

need a dictionary? I’ll loan you mine, but you can use the internet, what am I thinking. silly man.
And yes, you can call me brother, brother. Though we are separated brothers and sisters in Christ I presume you realize this truth. that means you must not be from my previous faith, the “Church of Christ”. Ironically, the Catholic Church also refers to itself as the Church of Christ. Interesting.

I’m not sure which scripture you would like for me to quote. I know from experience that nothing I say will affect you anyway, so why bother. You mind has been made up, the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide you, the bible does, or did you forget telling us that? Nonetheless, you’ll see me throw a few passages in here and there. I might as well since I’ve been studying scripture since 1976. The fact that I was going to be a preacher means absolutely nothing I know, but oh well, gotta start somewhere.

 

[Webby]

Hyperbole

need a dictionary? I’ll loan you mine, but you can use the internet, what am I thinking. silly man.
And yes, you can call me brother, brother. Though we are separated brothers and sisters in Christ I presume you realize this truth. that means you must not be from my previous faith, the “Church of Christ”. Ironically, the Catholic Church also refers to itself as the Church of Christ. Interesting.

I’m not sure which scripture you would like for me to quote. I know from experience that nothing I say will affect you anyway, so why bother. You mind has been made up, the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide you, the bible does, or did you forget telling us that? Nonetheless, you’ll see me throw a few passages in here and there. I might as well since I’ve been studying scripture since 1976. The fact that I was going to be a preacher means absolutely nothing I know, but oh well, gotta start somewhere.

Romans 3:10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not even one;

Anyone who follows God’s word should agree with the above verse that even Mary herself was NOT sinless. Nobody is sinless except Jesus. That’s why Jesus had to come !!!

 

[andrewv33]

Andrewv33,

You wrote:

Are you aware off the disctinction between latria and dulia in Catholic theology?

According to your understanding of this passage, do you believe God commanded a man to violate this very commandment by making the Cheribum on the Ark of the Covenant? I don’t beleive He did. But,they are a likeness of something in heaven above are they not? Maybe it is your understanding of what that commandment means that needs to be revised?

we are really of the topic now, but i will answer you i dont know for how long.
RECAP
You declared that i practice idolatry because in the Religion section i have “The Bible”, yet i answered to you and you did not reply but continued to go off the subject even further… and now you seem to continue…
I must say that you are taking the cherub out of context and at no point in time in the bible has anyone knelt down and worshiped the cherub, or should i say through the cherub
Twisting words and taking verses out of context is very dangerous and leads to errors in understanding and judgement…please open a forum discussion and i am always happy to talk to all my different denomination friends
I have thrown down the challenge… what do you say?

 

[eucharisteo]

Andrewv33,

You wrote:

Are you aware of the disctinction between latria and dulia in Catholic theology?

According to your understanding of this passage, do you believe God commanded a man to violate this very commandment by making the Cheribum on the Ark of the Covenant? I don’t beleive He did. But,they are a likeness of something in heaven above are they not? Maybe it is your understanding of what that commandment means that needs to be revised?

Exactly the same point I typically make. Unfortunately, people like this are have such a darkened spirit that they can’t pull themselves out of the abyss long enough to actually try to think things through. All these made up Catholic terms just frustrates them… I’m waiting for the day they reget the trinity…oh wait, that’s already happened. Oh well, the next thing is that they’ll deny the divinity of Christ…oh wait,… I forgot again… that’s been done too. So I guess they’ll say we are also gods too … oh wait, that’s happened too. i could keep going on and on, having studying so many different faiths and seeing the heresy so clearly represented and finding even leaders that behind the doors will admit to not believing certain doctrinal positions but restrain for reasons usually about keeping their position or job in that particular community.

I think after all of those confusing man made doctrines I’ll stick with what Paul tells us, to hold fast to the teachings and traditions passed down to us. Makes more sense to me in light of Math 23, chair of Moses, clarification of who has the authority, not what. But we should read that so literal should we? It just makes us all so uncomfortable once we realize our worlds would crumble right under our feet. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, literally, from leading so many different ministries teaching bible. I am Catholic now from the top of my head to the tip of my toes. It’s wonderful to have the fullness of faith working in my life now. Praise God, I have a mother in heaven that loves us too and leads us to Christ, her son our life. Mary is our spiritual mother who’s fiat saved the world in that she aligned her will with the God’s will. I’m sorry that you don’t see the difference. It’s very sad and brings tears to my eyes for your poverty. [edited to add for Protestants or those that think they are just Christians]

 

[andrewv33]

Romans 3:10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not even one;

Anyone who follows God’s word should agree with the above verse that even Mary herself was NOT sinless. Nobody is sinless except Jesus. That’s why Jesus had to come !!!

AMEN to that

 

[Nicea325]

Hello and thank you for taking the time to respond to me.
Please do not take what i said out of context since i have already answered you in post #90 and #91 with biblical verses! What is say is not contrary to the bible and the verses i have provided are in simple language.

Then show me where Jesus taught the Bible-Only doctrine?

 

[LionHeart777]

As many Early Church Father’s, who were certainly not ignorant of Scripture, believed and taught otherwise, maybe it is your particular interpretation of this passage that should be suspect?

Another early witness to the fact tha Mary did not sin (taught by both Catholic and Orthodox Christians):

St. Ambrose of Milan in his Commentary on Psalm 118, (inter A.D. 387-388) wrote:

Come, then, and search out Your sheep, not through Your servants or hired men, but do it Yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sara but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (2).

(Jurgens, William A. The Faith of the Early Fathers Volume 2, The Liturgical Press, Collegeville, MN: 1979. Pages 165-166.)

(Thank God for Jurgens’ Doctrinal Indexes at the back of each book in this series.)

 

[andrewv33]

Hyperbole

need a dictionary? I’ll loan you mine, but you can use the internet, what am I thinking. silly man.
And yes, you can call me brother, brother. Though we are separated brothers and sisters in Christ I presume you realize this truth. that means you must not be from my previous faith, the “Church of Christ”. Ironically, the Catholic Church also refers to itself as the Church of Christ. Interesting.

I’m not sure which scripture you would like for me to quote. I know from experience that nothing I say will affect you anyway, so why bother. You mind has been made up, the Holy Spirit doesn’t guide you, the bible does, or did you forget telling us that? Nonetheless, you’ll see me throw a few passages in here and there. I might as well since I’ve been studying scripture since 1976. The fact that I was going to be a preacher means absolutely nothing I know, but oh well, gotta start somewhere.

I am sorry but you should not feel frustrated.
Going back to what you said, i think i am missing something, you are telling me not to focus on the bible and move away from it and start reading something else and another doctrine that is not found in the bible in order for the Holy Spirit to guide and and unite me with the Holy Mother in Heaven that is above Christ? Yes…

 

[teachccd]

Romans 3:10 As it is written: “ There is none righteous, no, not even one;

Anyone who follows God’s word should agree with the above verse that even Mary herself was NOT sinless. Nobody is sinless except Jesus. That’s why Jesus had to come !!!

So Jesus was no one? Where does this scripture make this distinction? Indeed Mary needed a savior. The Catholic Church teaches that she was preserved from sin and this was merited her only through the Cross of Christ.

Your scripture quote is taken from Psalm 14 where David is lamenting over the vast corruption of the world. In genesis Chapter 6 we find that God was so taken by the world’s corruption that He decided to destroy all mankind. BUT he found favor with Noah therefore showing that he was righteous before God. We must read scripture in its context and in light of the big picture. Part of biblical interpretation is knowing the author’s intention as it is expressed in the times that it was written. Text taken out of context becomes a pretext. We need to avoid that… teachccd

 

[LionHeart777]

we are really of the topic now, but i will answer you i dont know for how long.
RECAP
You declared that i practice idolatry because in the Religion section i have “The Bible”, yet i answered to you and you did not reply but continued to go off the subject even further… and now you seem to continue…
I must say that you are taking the cherub out of context and at no point in time in the bible has anyone knelt down and worshiped the cherub, or should i say through the cherub
Twisting words and taking verses out of context is very dangerous and leads to errors in understanding and judgement…please open a forum discussion and i am always happy to talk to all my different denomination friends
I have thrown down the challenge… what do you say?

A few points:

1. You brought up the other topics, I didn’t want to let your claims go unchallenged
2. I never, at any time, said that you practiced idolatry. Please go back and check.
3. I don’t kneal down and “worship” (latria) Mary, nor is this permitted.

Please show me exactly how I “twisted” those words and took them out of context. I never said anyone should “worship” any Cherubim (in another thread if you wish.)

 

[Nicea325]

You aren’t quoting correctly but anyway…

Back up please

You are the one claiming

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
Mary DID NOT HAVE OTHER CHILDREN!

Reason you are providing

Reason? Hre let me help you out,since so many Protestants are missing the bigger picture. It is called Apostolic Traditions stemming from the early church.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicea325
NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary gave birth to other children.

Using your exact logic I will claim

Exactly! Logical because you failed to acknowledge my comment even the early reformers did not teach what modern Protestants teach. Why do you not rebuke Luther? Or Calvin?

Quote:

Mary WAS NOT ASSUMED INTO HEAVEN

And why? Because the doctrine is to "Catholic’ for you and conflicts with your modern novelties? Apostolic Tradition has also played a huge on the development of doctrines. By the way, using your logic, SCRIPTURE DOES NOT EXPLICITLYPROVIDE THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE…DOES IT?

Reason

Quote:
NO WHERE does Scripture state Mary was assumed into heaven

JUST LIKE IT DOES NOT PROVIDE THE CANON OF SCRIPTURE?

So which is it then…

Either
(1) Just because it is not specifically mentioned in Scripture it does not follow it is not true.

In which case it is possible Mary did have other children and it is possible she was assumed into heaven.

Or

(2) If it is not specifically mentioned in Scripture that it can not be true

In which case Mary was not assumed into heaven and Mary did not have other children.

Please tell me how one is to handle this case then.

On the contrary,which is it? Did Apostolic Traditions also aide and provide many of the core doctrines? The Trinity? Yep! The Incarnation? Yep! The canon of scripture? Yep! And oh yeah…that Mary had no children and was ASSUMED. And why? Apostolic Traditions which like so many Protestants kick to the curb with the bogus doctrine called Sola Scriptura.

 

[teachccd]

I am sorry but you should not feel frustrated.
Going back to what you said, i think i am missing something, you are telling me not to focus on the bible and move away from it and start reading something else and another doctrine that is not found in the bible in order for the Holy Spirit to guide and and unite me with the Holy Mother in Heaven that is above Christ? Yes…

I’m sorry. I was prostrating myself in front of my statue of Mary and was overcome by the incense. Now are you proposing that we Catholics should blow the dust off of our forbidden Bibles and read them instead of the man made false doctrines that we have been following all these centuries? Some nerve. I’ll bet that you next suggest that I sell my golden calf. Like that will ever happen…

 

[LionHeart777]

Exactly the same point I typically make. Unfortunately, people like this are have such a darkened spirit that they can’t pull themselves out of the abyss long enough to actually try to think things through. All these made up Catholic terms just frustrates them… I’m waiting for the day they reget the trinity…oh wait, that’s already happened. Oh well, the next thing is that they’ll deny the divinity of Christ…oh wait,… I forgot again… that’s been done too. So I guess they’ll say we are also gods too … oh wait, that’s happened too. i could keep going on and on, having studying so many different faiths and seeing the heresy so clearly represented and finding even leaders that behind the doors will admit to not believing certain doctrinal positions but restrain for reasons usually about keeping their position or job in that particular community.

I think after all of those confusing man made doctrines I’ll stick with what Paul tells us, to hold fast to the teachings and traditions passed down to us. Makes more sense to me in light of Math 23, chair of Moses, clarification of who has the authority, not what. But we should read that so literal should we? It just makes us all so uncomfortable once we realize our worlds would crumble right under our feet. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt, literally, from leading so many different ministries teaching bible. I am Catholic now from the top of my head to the tip of my toes. It’s wonderful to have the fullness of faith working in my life now. Praise God, I have a mother in heaven that loves us too and leads us to Christ, her son our life. Mary is our spiritual mother who’s fiat saved the world in that she aligned her will with the God’s will. I’m sorry that you don’t see the difference. It’s very sad and brings tears to my eyes for your poverty. [edited to add for Protestants or those that think they are just Christians]

I had a lot of objections to work through when I converted from Protestantism, and I first considered Orthodoxy, as perhaps I was so repulsed by certain Catholic teachings. There are answers to certain charges that are leveled against us by some Protestants (like the ones we are encountering in this thread) is what I found out from listening to Catholics themselves, and there is evidence for what we believe both in Scripture and Tradition. Without the latter, it becomes easier to misinterpret Scripture and for error to creep in.

 

[andrewv33]

Then show me where Jesus taught the Bible-Only doctrine?

I am sorry but i do not know where you want to go with this?
Are you wanting to imply that Christ preached his own dogma that was not based on the bible (old testament) as it was known then?