Mary did not have sin

[Nicea325]

Ohhh
I am mistaken then!
Idolatry= is usually defined as worship of any cult image, idea, or object,
Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Do you have any graven images?

You sure are and by a mile! Tell me what sat on top of the Ark of the Convenant? TWO CHERUBIMS,the second choir of angels according to ancient traditions. Is that not **likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, **? Yep!

So according to you God must contradict Himself-eh? BTW: The bible was not wriiten in English,so first learn what Hebrew/Aramaic words meant to the Jews.

So now that i have given you clear definitions, lets continue…to follow what you accused me off
So under the title of this forum “Religion”, i put “The Bible” (to imply that is what is believe in, which you said its idolatrous) that has to do with conduct, beliefs, purpose, etc… is based on the BIBLE which is the inspired word of GOD 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yes ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God…However, the first word reads ALL,not ONLY. Sorry,but you like so many have taken that verse waaayyyy out-of-context.

 

[andrewv33]

A few points:

1. You brought up the other topics, I didn’t want to let your claims go unchallenged
2. I never, at any time, said that you practiced idolatry. Please go back and check.
   ** #127 you quoted of another post**
3. I don’t kneal down and “worship” (latria) Mary, nor is this permitted.
   now you crack me up!!!
   so what do you call this then if you are not allowed to kneel?
   jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/worshipping_mary200.jpg

---

Please show me exactly how I “twisted” those words and took them out of context. I never said anyone should “worship” any Cherubim (in another thread if you wish.)

 

[Nicea325]

I am sorry but i do not know where you want to go with this?
Are you wanting to imply that Christ preached his own dogma that was not based on the bible (old testament) as it was known then?

Jesus is more than the Bible. The Bible is JESUS in the Flesh,so why would He contradict Himself? You evidently believe the Bible-Only is the only authority and appeal,thus I am asking you to show us where Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples one must ONLY follow the written words (Bible)?

BTW: How many books did Jesus’ OT Bible contain?

 

[Webby]

So Jesus was no one? Where does this scripture make this distinction? Indeed Mary needed a savior. The Catholic Church teaches that she was preserved from sin and this was merited her only through the Cross of Christ… teachccd

Jesus is God. Not no one. But THE ONE and ONLY. That verse refers to all of mankind.

And yes you’re right !, the catholic teaches that…unfortunately…but not the Bible.
.

 

[Webby]

Jesus is more than the Bible. The Bible is JESUS in the Flesh,so why would He contradict Himself? You evidently believe the Bible-Only is the only authority and appeal,thus I am asking you to show us where Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples one must ONLY follow the written words (Bible)?

2 John 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
**
Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.**

 

[Nicea325]

Back to the topic at hand. God instructed the Ark of the Covenant to be lined with gold inside and out. It was to remain pure and no one was to even touch it. This was how the written Word of God was to be carried. Carried in a pure vessel and treated with the utmost reverence. Now are we to believe that the living Word of God would be carried in a stained vessel? It would have been likened to the Ten Commandments being tossed in an old shoe box. Did God change His mind? Would He want His written Word revered more highly that His living Word? Hmmm…

Logic would have it that God can do anything as Scripture states (Luke 1:37). So would it be impossible that God would create a sinless, unstained vessel in which to carry His Word? In 2 Samuel 6 we find David asking how it is that the ark of the Lord should come to him. In Luke 1:43 we find Elizabeth asking the parallel question about Mary. David leaped in front of the ark and John the baptist leaped in Elizabeth’s womb.

Typology is a very important aspect of the art and science of biblical interpretation. The OT foreshadows the New and the New fulfills the Old. If the Ark of the Covenant was to be held in higher esteem than the vessl of the living Word of God then we have a unique example of how the fulfillment was of lesser importance than the foreshadowing.

It’s easy to throw the baby out with the bath water and belittle the Mother of our Lord for the sake of being too “Catholic”. But the fact remains that our God is ineffable and He cannot be affected by our thoughts and feelings. Why do we honor Mary so highly? Because God did. Can you give me a higher honor than being asked to bring the second Person of the Trinity into the world? Can you give me a higher honor than knowing that the very flesh that covered God grew from you? Was not Mary given the most honorable task in human history? Is there anything that could even come close to carrying God in your womb?

As Catholics we could never even entertain the thought that Jesus would be reduced to someone less than the stone tablets of the Old Testament. Jesus is truly the Holy of Holies and only a pure tabernacle would suffice if we are to know the history of how God wanted His word to be carried…

Isn’t typology a wonderful gift that we have to see the whole picture? We use it in hundreds of ways to see the fulfillment of the New Testament. And what a glorious picture it paints… teachccd

Amen brother! Problem is that the above just makes to much sense;thus it is much easier to stick to "johnny-come-lately’ traditions,then accept what the ancient church was already teaching.

Some argue that the new ark is not Mary, but the body of Jesus. Even if this were the case, it is worth noting that 1 Chronicles 15:14 records that the persons who bore the ark were to be sanctified. There would be no sense in sanctifying men who carried a box, and not sanctifying the womb who carried God himself! After all, wisdom will not dwell “in a body under debt of sin” (Wis. 1:4 NAB).

 

[Nicea325]

2 John 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son.
**
Revelation 22:18 I testify to everyone who hears the prophetic words of this book: If anyone adds to them**, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book.

Exactly Andrew! If anyone adds to them something you are guilty of doing. You are adding something Jesus never taught: The Bible-Only.

WRONG Andrew! Revelation 22:18 is not about the current Bible we own,but ONLY the book of Revelation. The verse does not support your argument of Jesus teaching the Bible-Only.

No offense Andrew,but you practice eisegesis. You read into the text something that simply is not there. You expresses your own opinions, bias, etc., rather than the true meaning of what the author had intended.

 

[LionHeart777]

Andrewv33,

In post 127 I was quoting you, please show me where I stated that your were either an idolator or practiced idolatry?

You originally said this to me:

“You declared that i practice idolatry because in the Religion section i have ‘The Bible’, yet i answered to you and you did not reply but continued to go off the subject even further… and now you seem to continue…” (color mine)

That was not me, it was someone else who made a comment to you regarding your “Religion section.”

I didn’t say we aren’t allowed to kneel I said we aren’t allowed to kneel down and “worship” (latria) Mary.

 

[benidict]

what bible are you reading?
i have KJV and i cannot see “For his mercy endureth forever”

duay rheims, it may be set up a little different in your bible. it is probably psalm 136 in the kjv. peace

 

[Nicea325]

Jesus is God. Not no one. But THE ONE and ONLY. That verse refers to all of mankind.

And yes you’re right !, the catholic teaches that…unfortunately…but not the Bible.
.

And yes you’re right! your man-made church does not teach it WAS the Catholic Church which owned and TAUGHT the Bible long before any man-made church existed so get your facts straight!

Unfortunately your church does not teach from the Bible,because it is very clear we are NOT a religion of the book,but of the person: Christ. Christ founded a CHURCH,not a book faith only.

 

[eucharisteo]

I had a lot of objections to work through when I converted from Protestantism, and I first considered Orthodoxy, as perhaps I was so repulsed by certain Catholic teachings. There are answers to certain charges that are leveled against us by some Protestants (like the ones we are encountering in this thread) is what I found out from listening to Catholics themselves, and there is evidence for what we believe both in Scripture and Tradition. Without the latter, it becomes easier to misinterpret Scripture and for error to creep in.

That’s interesting. I too was considering Orthodoxy as well. I am drawn to their ancient liturgy because of the Greek and ancient service. The same teachings offended me, but when my very anti-Catholic wife explained some of the Marian doctrine to me better and in a way that I could understand it I realized that I was being closed minded out of fear… Fear rooted in not wanting to offend God or Mary if she in fact could see and hear me. I came to believe in the communions of saints first because of the catacombs and the “cloud of witness” explanations. It made sense. From there it just grew in steps of faith. I was sure I’d go to the Orthodox sooner or later, but after studying history much deeper than I had ever done before I realized the primacy of the bishop of Rome was also part of the tradition. It was a matter of perspective and frankly what I realized to be pride and anger driving the Orthodox away, in my opinion. But I also saw equally overly prideful was Catholics throughout history doing the same thing and even worse. It took me a little while after the advice of several Orthodox priests to discern in a way that took into consideration all of my misgivings. I could write a book as you could probably too. Maybe we could start a club and collect dues. Oh well. Thanks for sharing.

 

[eucharisteo]

Andrewv33,

In post 127 I was quoting you, please show me where I stated that your were either an idolator or practiced idolatry?

You originally said this:

“You declared that i practice idolatry because in the Religion section i have ‘The Bible’, yet i answered to you and you did not reply but continued to go off the subject even further… and now you seem to continue…”

That was not me, it was someone else who made a comment to you regarding your “Religion section.”

I didn’t say we aren’t allowed to kneel I said we aren’t allowed to kneel down and “worship” (latria) Mary.

That was supposed to be directed at me I believe. But he over reacted to my poking fun at his “handle” as someone used the term denoting which faith he practices.

 

[LionHeart777]

That was supposed to be directed at me I believe. But he over reacted to my poking fun at his “handle” as someone used the term denoting which faith he practices.

Sorry to tattle

Off topic:

your name, is the “eo” on the end a Spanish suffix?

 

[LionHeart777]

That’s interesting. I too was considering Orthodoxy as well. I am drawn to their ancient liturgy because of the Greek and ancient service. The same teachings offended me, but when my very anti-Catholic wife explained some of the Marian doctrine to me better and in a way that I could understand it I realized that I was being closed minded out of fear… Fear rooted in not wanting to offend God or Mary if she in fact could see and hear me. I came to believe in the communions of saints first because of the catacombs and the “cloud of witness” explanations. It made sense. From there it just grew in steps of faith. I was sure I’d go to the Orthodox sooner or later, but after studying history much deeper than I had ever done before I realized the primacy of the bishop of Rome was also part of the tradition. It was a matter of perspective and frankly what I realized to be pride and anger driving the Orthodox away, in my opinion. But I also saw equally overly prideful was Catholics throughout history doing the same thing and even worse. It took me a little while after the advice of several Orthodox priests to discern in a way that took into consideration all of my misgivings. I could write a book as you could probably too. Maybe we could start a club and collect dues. Oh well. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you as well. It’s tragic that the split happened otherwise there would be no confusion on where we were to go. I too became convinced of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome (successor of St. Peter) from what I saw in the writings of some Early Church Father’s (oops just called a man “father”.)

 

[andrewv33]

Jesus is more than the Bible. The Bible is JESUS in the Flesh,so why would He contradict Himself? You evidently believe the Bible-Only is the only authority and appeal,thus I am asking you to show us where Jesus taught His Apostles and disciples one must ONLY follow the written words (Bible)?

BTW: How many books did Jesus’ OT Bible contain?

I am really finding it hard to understand where you are going, or did you want me to ask you where you are going with your point. Sorry.
Yes i did state that The Bible is a instructional, inspirational book, where one can learn more about God! that is what i am saying… i do not know where else one can learn about God?

I love how you insert “Written” and try to quote add that as my quote… in any case the pharisees tried to use the bible against Christ by applying and twisting the deeper meaning.

I do not know what is it you are trying to prove but the New and Old Testament are the inspired words of God and I am just saying, that is a good source of food for our soul, our mind. You obviously have other ideas and other avenues where you can feed your spirit and soul with similar literature… share with me.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

I am really finding it hard to understand where you are going, or did you want me to ask you where you are going with your point. Sorry.
Yes i did state that The Bible is a instructional, inspirational book, where one can learn more about God! that is what i am saying… i do not know where else one can learn about God?

I love how you insert “Written” and try to quote add that as my quote… in any case the pharisees tried to use the bible against Christ by applying and twisting the deeper meaning.

I do not know what is it you are trying to prove but the New and Old Testament are the inspired words of God and I am just saying, that is a good source of food for our soul, our mind. You obviously have other ideas and other avenues where you can feed your spirit and soul with similar literature… share with me.

I think Nicea is trying to say that the Bible isn’t the only source of divine revelation. As Catholics, we believe Sacred Tradition to be on the same level of Sacred Scripture. It too is divine revelation and inerrant.

 

[eucharisteo]

Thank you as well. It’s tragic that the split happened otherwise there would be no confusion on where we were to go. I too became convinced of the primacy of the Bishop of Rome (successor of St. Peter) from what I saw in the writings of some Early Church Father’s (oops just called a man “father”.)

Oh no, it’s “Father’s Day” Run!!!

 

[andrewv33]

That was supposed to be directed at me I believe. But he over reacted to my poking fun at his “handle” as someone used the term denoting which faith he practices.

I find it deeply disturbing on the emphasis that one need a requirement of what religion he is?
I am truly bewildered…

But if you like so many here are in such pain to know what religion i am i will tell you.
I hope this will make it easier for you, but i am guessing it will not.

If i was to belong to a religious denomination it would be - Act 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

 

[Webby]

And yes you’re right! your man-made church does not teach it WAS the Catholic Church which owned and TAUGHT the Bible long before any man-made church existed so get your facts straight!

Unfortunately your church does not teach from the Bible,because it is very clear we are NOT a religion of the book,but of the person: Christ. Christ founded a CHURCH,not a book faith only.

When Luke & Matthew writing were writing Biblical scripture. Where was the catholic church? Nowhere. It was nowhere and did not exist.

Back then, there was NO Catholic church. NO Tradition. It was just the apostles/disciples & biblical scripture.

One thing for certain. The Bible never officiated any pope or leader of the ‘clan’. Nor any succession to that vainly claimed leadership. INstead Jesus said the greatest must be the servant of all. Why then would there even be a LEADER???

Can you go up to a man whose father has departed on a long trip and tell him that you have right of inheritance because for some unknown reason, his father made YOU his rightful heir? Logically you can. But wait till his father returns and you’ll know what you’ll be getting.

.

 

[LionHeart777]

When Luke & Matthew writing were writing Biblical scripture. Where was the catholic church? Nowhere. It was nowhere and did not exist.

Back then, there was NO Catholic church. NO Tradition. It was just the apostles/disciples & biblical scripture.

One thing for certain. The Bible never officiated any pope or leader of the ‘clan’. INstead Jesus said the greatest must be the servant of all. Why then would there even be a LEADER???

.

St. Ignatius of Antioch called the Church Catholic in the second century A.D. He was a Bishop of Antioch, the 1st Bishop of Antioch being St. Peter. So, St. Peter and St. Ignatius belong to the same Church and this Church came to be called Catholic.

One of the titles for the Pope is “The Servant of the Servants of God.”

Christ established (at some point) St. Peter as the visible head of the Church (see St. Mathew 16:18) I digress.