Mary did not have sin

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If this is to me, yes I believe they had sex before the fall. Notice this veres –

Ge 1:28 Then God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

My guess is this verse was before the fall. Note God’s command. That involves sex, correct?
Yeah, it was, there were three total I think. “Be fruitful and multiply”, I would say, is definately a command to reproduce.

I will go back and take a look at the first three chapters again. However, why is it important? The subject was Mary as the ark of the New Covenant, which I believe has been established in this thread as an ancient belief (outside the Bible the 1st I am aware of is St. Irenaeus.) Within the Bible, Steve Ray, in the article I quoted from, makes the Biblical case so it could be that Luke, in his Gospel account, also alludes to this teaching by his parallels to the ark we read about in the OT.
 
Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD?Are there any exceptions to the word ‘All’?
What about Jesus Christ? Did He in His humanity ever sin?
What about babies and those with a mental retardation who have no reasoning power? Have they sinned? Have children below the age of reason sinned? Have comatose and senile people sinned? As you can see, there are exceptions.

Luke 1:6, regarding Zachary and Elizabeth, the parents of John the Baptist, “Both were just before GOD, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord”.

Luke 1:15, regarding John the Baptist, “For he shall be great before the Lord; he shall drink no wine or strong drink, and shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mothers womb”.

Do these verses sound as if Zachary, Elizabeth, and John the Baptist have sinned?

You can readily see that there are many exceptions to the term ‘All have sinned’. Since I have shown there are many exceptions to the word ‘ALL’, why then should anyone not allow one more exception, the Mother of GOD? CATHLOIC TREASER CHEST
just checking if I can post! 👍
 
If you guys really want to have some fun, start on this page and work your way backwards. See how long it takes you before you can find a post that has anything to do with the topic of the thread. I just got reamed for being off topic on a thread I started myself (by the moderators, no less). We were nowhere near as off topic as I find on this thread. Anyway, have fun.
 
***Return to topic (***Mary did not have sin) or thread will be closed.
 
**Mary did not have sin. Mary is the new Eve and Jesus is the new Adam. In order for the Son of God to be conceived Mary must have been sinless. God must have willed it so that she would be able to make the perfect choice by aligning her will with God’s will. For me this was a difficult thing to understand, but I submit to the teaching of the Church on the matter after recognizing the authority of the Church, not the bible. It makes sense, but it’s just not stated explicitly in scripture in a way that all get it. Why? It’s a mystery to me.
**
 
There’s three things about Mary that you seem to be putting together. The OP is about Mary not sinning. The other two are the virgin conception and birth of Jesus from Mary and Mary’s perpetual virginity.

The only one I believe is the one stated in the Bible: is the virgin conception and birth of Jesus from the womb of Mary.
What is the meaning of “Hail Mary, full of grace”. Why did Mary find favour in God’s eyes and be chosen to bring forth the Messiah into the world in human form? These biblical truths corroborate / confirm, the Immaculate nature of Mary.

If someone want’s to know how, and if their quest is a genuine search for truth, then they can be assured of a response from The Holy Spirit, who will give crystal clarity. I share below my inspiration on “the immaculate nature of Mother Mary”:

God is infinitely just and fair and allows each one of us to choose freely between Good and Evil. This process of making the right choice is equally influenced by two opposites, viz., the flesh and the spirit. The ones who get it right the first time will get it right always. Though everyone is born with the stain of original sin, it can affect a person only after he or she makes the first choice wrongly, after being prompted by the flesh. Mother Mary got it right the first time and hence every time.
 
What is the meaning of “Hail Mary, full of grace”. Why did Mary find favour in God’s eyes and be chosen to bring forth the Messiah into the world in human form? These biblical truths corroborate / confirm, the Immaculate nature of Mary.
Is this the verse you are speaking about?

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Lu 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored <5487> one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted
<5487> in the Beloved.

Notice the same Greek word is used in Luke 1 and Eph 1. The only two places in the NT they are used. The Luke 1 is about Mary. The Eph 1 is about all true believers. Jesus inhabits sinners who trust Him. Mary is a wonderful example of this.

Notice Mary was chosen ‘among’ not ‘above’. She was called out from among all women. Only one woman could bear Jesus.

The ‘found favor’ verse:

Lu 1:30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found <2147> favor <5485> with God.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace <5485>, that we may obtain mercy and find <2147> grace <5485> to help in time of need.

Notice: anyone who comes to the Throne of Grace gets what Mary got: “finding favor”.

Mary was one of us. What a brilliant and merciful and gracious and loving plan of God our Father.
 
What is the meaning of “Hail Mary, full of grace”. Why did Mary find favour in God’s eyes and be chosen to bring forth the Messiah into the world in human form? These biblical truths corroborate / confirm, the Immaculate nature of Mary.

If someone want’s to know how, and if their quest is a genuine search for truth, then they can be assured of a response from The Holy Spirit, who will give crystal clarity. I share below my inspiration on “the immaculate nature of Mother Mary”:

God is infinitely just and fair and allows each one of us to choose freely between Good and Evil. This process of making the right choice is equally influenced by two opposites, viz., the flesh and the spirit. The ones who get it right the first time will get it right always. Though everyone is born with the stain of original sin, it can affect a person only after he or she makes the first choice wrongly, after being prompted by the flesh. Mother Mary got it right the first time and hence every time.
More important,now why on earth would God instruct the Jews to build a beatiful ark covered with gold,inside and outside and nothing defile to touch it? The 10 commandments,manna and the sheperd’s staff (God/Jesus) yet have a defiled (sinner/Mary) conceive God in the flesh?

That makes no sense at all.
 
Is this the verse you are speaking about?

Luke 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.

Lu 1:28 And having come in, the angel said to her, “Rejoice, highly favored <5487> one, the Lord is with you; blessed are you among women!”
Eph 1:6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made <5487> us accepted
<5487> in the Beloved.

Notice the same Greek word is used in Luke 1 and Eph 1. The only two places in the NT they are used. The Luke 1 is about Mary. The Eph 1 is about all true believers. ** Jesus inhabits sinners who trust Him. Mary is a wonderful example of this.**Notice Mary was chosen ‘among’ not ‘above’. She was called out from among all women. Only one woman could bear Jesus.

The ‘found favor’ verse:

Lu 1:30 Then the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found <2147> favor <5485> with God.

Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace <5485>, that we may obtain mercy and find <2147> grace <5485> to help in time of need.

Notice: anyone who comes to the Throne of Grace gets what Mary got: “finding favor”.

Mary was one of us. What a brilliant and merciful and gracious and loving plan of God our Father.
(Emphasis mine)

Interesting how the author states this as a fact, ignoring what both men in the East and in the West have held, arguably since the time Luke penned his Gospel. I suppose their “evidence” is their erroneous intepretation of the verse we have discussed in Romans.

It is easy to demonstrate that the early Church believed that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant. If one goes back through the thread they will find the citations from the Early Church Fathers that demonstrate this.

Also relevent is the early teaching on Mary as the new Eve. Why? IMO, because the 1st Eve was created free from any stain of sin. I think people who claim that Mary sinned are missing a deeper mystery (to use St. Irenaeus’ word.)

Steve Ray seems to do a good job showing that Luke made parallels between the ark and Mary.

“It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.”

Here are some more parallels taken from the same article:

"Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.

When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, ‘How can the ark of the Lord come to me?’ Elizabeth uses almost the same words: ‘Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’ Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.

When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.

When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.

The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22)."

This second citation talks about the parallels between David and the ark and the visitation described in Luke’s account.

(Both citations from: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp , accessed 6/ 23/ 10) (Blue color mine)

These, in my mind, are beutiful examples of the depth and richness that characterizes Catholic Theology. As one can see, there is evidence in both Scripture and Tradition. But still, many Protestant brethren would have us to believe their interpretation of the “all have sinned” verse in Romans to include absolutely no exceptions (besides Jesus of course.)
 
(Emphasis mine)

Interesting how the author states this as a fact, ignoring what both men in the East and in the West have held, arguably since the time Luke penned his Gospel. I suppose their “evidence” is their erroneous intepretation of the verse we have discussed in Romans.

It is easy to demonstrate that the early Church believed that Mary was the Ark of the New Covenant. If one goes back through the thread they will find the citations from the Early Church Fathers that demonstrate this.

Also relevent is the early teaching on Mary as the new Eve. Why? IMO, because the 1st Eve was created free from any stain of sin. I think people who claim that Mary sinned are missing a deeper mystery (to use St. Irenaeus’ word.)

Steve Ray seems to do a good job showing that Luke made parallels between the ark and Mary.

“It’s easy to miss the parallel between the Holy Spirit overshadowing the ark and the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary, between the Ark of the Old Covenant as the dwelling place of God and Mary as the new dwelling place of God.”

Here are some more parallels taken from the same article:

"Mary arose and went to the hill country of Judea. I have been to both Ein Kerem (where Elizabeth lived) and Abu Ghosh (where the ark resided), and they are only a short walk apart. Mary and the ark were both on a journey to the same hill country of Judea.

When David saw the ark he rejoiced and said, ‘How can the ark of the Lord come to me?’ Elizabeth uses almost the same words: ‘Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’ Luke is telling us something—drawing our minds back to the Old Testament, showing us a parallel.

When David approached the ark he shouted out and danced and leapt in front of the ark. He was wearing an ephod, the clothing of a priest. When Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, approached Elizabeth, John the Baptist leapt in his mother’s womb—and John was from the priestly line of Aaron. Both leapt and danced in the presence of the ark. The Ark of the Old Covenant remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months, and Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months. The place that housed the ark for three months was blessed, and in the short paragraph in Luke, Elizabeth uses the word blessed three times. Her home was certainly blessed by the presence of the ark and the Lord within.

When the Old Testament ark arrived—as when Mary arrived—they were both greeted with shouts of joy. The word for the cry of Elizabeth’s greeting is a rare Greek word used in connection with Old Testament liturgical ceremonies that were centered around the ark and worship (cf. Word Biblical Commentary, 67). This word would flip on the light switch for any knowledgeable Jew.

The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9–11). Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21–22)."

This second citation talks about the parallels between David and the ark and the visitation described in Luke’s account.

(Both citations from: catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0510fea5.asp , accessed 6/ 23/ 10) (Blue color mine)

These, in my mind, are beutiful examples of the depth and richness that characterizes Catholic Theology. As one can see, there is evidence in both Scripture and Tradition. But still, many Protestant brethren would have us to believe their interpretation of the “all have sinned” verse in Romans to include absolutely no exceptions (besides Jesus of course.)
Thanks for sharing this.
 
These, in my mind, are beautiful examples of the depth and richness that characterizes Catholic Theology. As one can see, there is evidence in both Scripture and Tradition.
Thank you very much LionHeart for sharing these most beautiful truths which were unknown to me (and to most of us catholics I think). May your tribe increase.

warm regards
Pitcharan:)
 
More important,now why on earth would God instruct the Jews to build a beatiful ark covered with gold,inside and outside and nothing defile to touch it? The 10 commandments,manna and the sheperd’s staff (God/Jesus) yet have a defiled (sinner/Mary) conceive God in the flesh?

That makes no sense at all.
Very rightly put. Thanks and regards. Pitcharan:)
 
Originally Posted by Nicea325
More important,now why on earth would God instruct the Jews to build a beatiful ark covered with gold,inside and outside and nothing defile to touch it? The 10 commandments,manna and the sheperd’s staff (God/Jesus) yet have a defiled (sinner/Mary) conceive God in the flesh?
That makes no sense at all.
Very rightly put. Thanks and regards. Pitcharan
👍
 
You’re welcome Picharan. I just cut and pasted a couple of excerpts from Steve Ray’s article. The link is there for anyone to read the whole thing.

Nicea325, interesting question.
 
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