Mary did what she was told

[raffo]

Didn’t know you were posting at the same time I was.

 

[Leeann]

I once went on a job interview. During the interview, the interviewer handed me a job description, with a list things I was expected to do. You will do this, you will do that.
Due to my free will, I didn’t take the job. I didn’t do any of the things the interviewer said I would do.

Jon

Hi Jon - With regards to your analogy…I really liked it…however, having said that…Mary wasn’t *seeking a position *and she didn’t go on a (*job interview). *The angel (interviewer) came to her on a mission from God to tell her what was going to happen. The majority of the angel’s message (job description) dealt with “the BENEFITS” (perhaps if in your scenario - if a list of the “Benefits” had been explained, as they were explained to Mary - you would have taken the job).

Mary’s free will has never been an area of concern to me personally, as I have always believed she was completely human, *just like the rest of us *and therefore had free will.
My point is that the very “human” Mary of the gospels, the one just like all other humans, you and me…is not the same “Mary” as the one the Catholic church promotes…as their “Mary” apparently did not has the same “sin nature” as the rest of us.

Hope I explained that more clearly.
I have just received a call from one of my daughters - that will necessitate my having to be away from this forum/thread for a few weeks - as I need to go and assist her during some medical treatment she is undergoing …will check in and read when I can, and will definitely come back in upon my return in about 3 wks time.

 

[JonNC]

=Leeann;5917503]Hi Jon - With regards to your analogy…I really liked it…however, having said that…Mary wasn’t *seeking a position *and she didn’t go on a (*job interview). *The angel (interviewer) came to her on a mission from God to tell her what was going to happen. The majority of the angel’s message (job description) dealt with “the BENEFITS” (perhaps if in your scenario - if a list of the “Benefits” had been explained, as they were explained to Mary - you would have taken the job).

Never said my analogy was perfect. You make some good observations.

Mary’s free will has never been an area of concern to me personally, as I have always believed she was completely human, *just like the rest of us *and therefore had free will.
My point is that the very “human” Mary of the gospels, the one just like all other humans, you and me…is not the same “Mary” as the one the Catholic church promotes…as their “Mary” apparently did not has the same “sin nature” as the rest of us.

Hope I explained that more clearly.

You did, and I’ll let Catholics respond. But I think she had the same sin nature, but it was overwhelmed by God’s Grace.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

I meant Leeann’s comments. You sound more logical.

I don’t think Leeann sounds “nasty”. I think she well expresses concerns many non-catholics have about how Catholics respond to their devotion to Mary.

Jon

 

[raffo]

Pardon me for not responding right away. My Hindu friends dropped by bringing some Indian cuisine.

Leeann, my sympathies about your daughter. My family and I will pray for her.

Jon, I assume that you’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 6. Mary-Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church. In case you haven’t, here’s the link vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM. This will explain any comments outside that context is an attack to our Blessed Mother. Let’s just face it, we all biased about something.

As Leeann wrote, she has to run to her daughter’s aid. She herself exemplifies the devotion of a mother, the Heart of Love of the family. Bless her and all loving devoted mothers. Then, let us put that extreme devotion of the Blessed Mother to her son Jesus Christ. For centuries, she’s been telling everyone to pray and believe in Jesus Christ. Two thousand years of nagging our brains out. Of course some kids will humbly say “Yes, Mother.”

 

[Leeann]

You did, and I’ll let Catholics respond. But I think she had the same sin nature, but it was overwhelmed by God’s Grace.

Jon

Hi Jon

I understand what you are saying, however the Catholic church doesn’t teach this with regards to their Mary…they believe and teach that she herself was born free of any sin…Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

 

[JonNC]

=Leeann;5981367]Hi Jon

I understand what you are saying, however the Catholic church doesn’t teach this with regards to their Mary…they believe and teach that she herself was born free of any sin…Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Hi Leeann,
Again, a knowledgable Catholic should respond to this, but she was not immaculately conceived, or sinless from birth by her own doing, or actions, or nature. This is all by the Grace of God.

Jon

 

[Leeann]

Leeann, my sympathies about your daughter.

Thank you raffo, she is doing well again.

Jon, I assume that you’ve read the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Paragraph 6. Mary-Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church. In case you haven’t, here’s the link vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2C.HTM. This will explain any comments outside that context is an attack to our Blessed Mother. Let’s just face it, we all biased about something.

As Leeann wrote, she has to run to her daughter’s aid. She herself exemplifies the devotion of a mother, the Heart of Love of the family. Bless her and all loving devoted mothers. Then, let us put that extreme devotion of the Blessed Mother to her son Jesus Christ.

What “extreme devotion” would you be referring too here? Mary cared and nurtured Jesus as her son as many mothers do, with the added assurance given to her by the Angel that this was God’s will.

For centuries, she’s been telling everyone to pray and believe in Jesus Christ. Two thousand years of nagging our brains out. Of course some kids will humbly say “Yes, Mother.”

“For centuries”…becomes…“Two thousand years”…based on the Catholic church teachings with regards to “their Mary”.

 

[FightingFat]

Hi Jon

Yes, if you consider Mary was human like all of us, then certainly she would have the free will to do so, however the Catholic church’s “Mary” was/is apparently *not *human like all of us…they present her as someone born without sin.

Leeann, may I ask if you think this makes her less human than we are?

 

[FightingFat]

…however the Catholic church doesn’t teach this with regards to their Mary…they believe and teach that she herself was born free of any sin…Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

I recognise (and tremble when I read) those tones!

Our Blessed Lady was predestined to become the Mother of God. Just as St. Paul explains to us in Ephesians, that God chose us before the creation of the world and that He has destined us in advance to become His children through Jesus Christ (1:4-5).

As Jon stated, this is possible by the grace of God, she was endowed with a grace distinct from our own which she received at the moment of her conception. This is the same grace we all receive on the day of our Baptism.

Mary’s immaculate conception is implicit in Scripture (as are other doctrines (i.e. teachings) of the Christian faith such as the Trinity and the doctrine of grace.

“Hail Mary, full of grace”- the angel recognises the fullness of sanctifying grace in Mary.

When God calls a person to become an instrument of His saving plan, He does not make use of him or her as a simple physical instrument- here, in the vase of Mary, as a simple instrument of biological generation; God appeals to the free co-operation of her faith, penetrating her with a grace of faith and love which is a grace of divine life inherent in the soul that gives interior grace. Otherwise the annunciation becomes like some Greek myth where the gods come down from Olympus and seduce human females…YHWH works differently to that and the annunciation story stands in opposition to that idea.
This was held by the Fathers; St. Ephraem said when praying to Christ in the fourth century: “You and your mother are the only ones who are entirely beautiful in every respect, for in you, O Lord, there is no spot, and in your mother there is no stain” (Carmina nisibena, XXVII). St. Augustine excluded Mary from general culpability (on the nature of grace, XLVI) “We know that she received superabundant grace to win an absolute victory over sin from the fact that she had the merit to conceive and bear Him who was incontestably without sin”.

 

[Leeann]

*Originally Posted by Leeann
Hi Jon

Yes, if you consider Mary was human like all of us, then certainly she would have the free will to do so, however the Catholic church’s “Mary” was/is apparently not human like all of us…they present her as someone born without sin.*

Leeann, may I ask if you think this makes her less human than we are?

I believe that question is already answered in the portion of my post that you quoted.
(underlined now).

Two different Marys…two different religions.

 

[FightingFat]

Yes, if you consider Mary was human like all of us, then certainly she would have the free will to do so, however the Catholic church’s “Mary” was/is apparently not human like all of us…they present her as someone born without sin.

I believe that question is already answered in the portion of my post that you quoted.
(underlined now).

Two different Marys…two different religions.

Forgive me, I am not trying to be difficult, just making sure I understand exactly what you are saying- I didn’t want to make a wrong assumption. It seems you are saying yes then, she is less than human if she was born immaculately. Can I ask if you think Jesus was less than human, because you surely believe that He was born without sin?

 

[Leeann]

Forgive me, I am not trying to be difficult, just making sure I understand exactly what you are saying- I didn’t want to make a wrong assumption. It seems you are saying yes then, she is less than human if she was born immaculately. Can I ask if you think Jesus was less than human, because you surely believe that He was born without sin?

You want me to compare Mary with Jesus?

Jesus’ conception and His birth are well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s conception and birth isn’t.

Jesus’ sinlessness is well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s sinlessness isn’t.

Jesus’ role as being human and the necessity for this being so is also well documented in scripture.

Mary’s role as *being human *is also documented clearly in scripture.
However the *Catholic church’s *Mary has nearly obliterated her humanness over the years, with its own teachings attributed to her and developed over the centuries and taught as truth.

Jesus’ divinity is also documented well in scripture.

That is as far as I can go in comparing Jesus with Mary …can I ask you if you think Mary was/is equal and able to be compared to Jesus?

 

[FightingFat]

You want me to compare Mary with Jesus?

Jesus’ conception and His birth are well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s conception and birth isn’t.

Jesus’ sinlessness is well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s sinlessness isn’t.

Jesus’ role as being human and the necessity for this being so is also well documented in scripture.

Mary’s role as *being human *is also documented clearly in scripture.
However the *Catholic church’s *Mary has nearly obliterated her humanness over the years, with its own teachings attributed to her and developed over the centuries and taught as truth.

Jesus’ divinity is also documented well in scripture.

That is as far as I can go in comparing Jesus with Mary …can I ask you if you think Mary was/is equal and able to be compared to Jesus?

Clearly not, because of the hypostatic union.

Leeann you didn’t answer my question however, Jesus you agree is sinless, yet the idea of Mary being sinless lessens her humanity for you. Does Jesus sinlessness lessen His humanity?

 

[Leeann]

*Originally Posted by Leeann
You want me to compare Mary with Jesus?

Jesus’ conception and His birth are well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s conception and birth isn’t.

Jesus’ sinlessness is well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s sinlessness isn’t.

Jesus’ role as being human and the necessity for this being so is also well documented in scripture.

Mary’s role as being human is also documented clearly in scripture.
However the Catholic church’s Mary has nearly obliterated her humanness over the years, with its own teachings attributed to her and developed over the centuries and taught as truth.

Jesus’ divinity is also documented well in scripture.

That is as far as I can go in comparing Jesus with Mary …can I ask you if you think Mary was/is equal and able to be compared to Jesus?*

Clearly not, because of the hypostatic union.

Then why pose your question in this manner?

FightingFat: Leeann you didn’t answer my question however, Jesus you agree is sinless, yet the idea of Mary being sinless lessens her humanity for you. Does Jesus sinlessness lessen His humanity?

You *prefaced *your question about Jesus’ sinlessness and humaness with a reference to Mary…clearly indicating a *comparison between the two *and I have answered your question to the best of my ability…stopping when I got to the “divine” part, as the two can’t be compared.

 

[FightingFat]

*Originally Posted by Leeann
You want me to compare Mary with Jesus?

Jesus’ conception and His birth are well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s conception and birth isn’t.

Jesus’ sinlessness is well documented in scripture.
The Catholic church’s Mary’s sinlessness isn’t.

Jesus’ role as being human and the necessity for this being so is also well documented in scripture.

Mary’s role as being human is also documented clearly in scripture.
However the Catholic church’s Mary has nearly obliterated her humanness over the years, with its own teachings attributed to her and developed over the centuries and taught as truth.

Jesus’ divinity is also documented well in scripture.

That is as far as I can go in comparing Jesus with Mary …can I ask you if you think Mary was/is equal and able to be compared to Jesus?*

Then why pose your question in this manner?

You *prefaced *your question about Jesus’ sinlessness and humaness with a reference to Mary…clearly indicating a *comparison between the two *and I have answered your question to the best of my ability…stopping when I got to the “divine” part, as the two can’t be compared.

I don’t know why you’re being so evasive in answering a simple question, honestly, I am only trying to help you better understand what we believe, not convince you or change your mind, I know better than that! As I see things, the conversation has run thus:

Leeann: “The Catholic Church has made Mary less than human because it says she was born without sin”

Mary’s free will has never been an area of concern to me personally, as I have always believed she was completely human, just like the rest of us and therefore had free will.
My point is that the very “human” Mary of the gospels, the one just like all other humans, you and me…is not the same “Mary” as the one the Catholic church promotes…as their “Mary” apparently did not has the same “sin nature” as the rest of us.

If she is without sin, the only other person I know to compare her to in that respect is Jesus. Obviously, Mary is not GOD-man and thus very different from Jesus, but in this respect, the respect of sin, the Church says she was conceived immaculately and Jesus we know was born without sin, I ask you therefore, if being without sin makes Mary less than human, how you see Jesus. Is He less than human? Yes or no.

 

[Leeann]

I don’t know why you’re being so evasive in answering a simple question, honestly, I am only trying to help you better understand what we believe, not convince you or change your mind, I know better than that!

Thank you FightingFat, but you don’t have to try to help me better understand what you believe…that has already been posted quite clearly by Raffo in post #25 - the vatican website with the Catechism of the Catholic church Para.6 - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church (Catholic church).

As to you being confused and thinking that I am being evasive in answering your simple question, I believe that has been clarified by yourself, in what you have posted below. It shows what you have accidentally, incorrectly interpeted and applied to what I actually posted.

by FightingFat: As I see things, the conversation has run thus:

Leeann: “The Catholic Church has made Mary less than human because it says she was born without sin”

Firstly, by the way that you’ve posted the above, with my name attached to it - it would appear to those just coming in now - that I actually at some point posted that comment - which I never have.

I had to go back and read through to see where this notion about Mary being *less than human *came from…and it is something that *you *have been putting forward…not me…if you read through carefully what I have posted…you will see that I truly believe in Mary’s humanity.

Originally posted by Leeann:Mary’s free will has never been an area of concern to me personally, as I have always believed she was completely human, just like the rest of us and therefore had free will. My point is that the very “human” Mary of the gospels, the one just like all other humans, you and me…is not the same “Mary” as the one the Catholic church promotes…as their “Mary” apparently did not has the same “sin nature” as the rest of us.

I was actually going in the other direction entirely…stating that the Catholic church has attempted to make Mary MORE than human.
Now that this has been clarified for you - and me - can you see that your question below simply doesn’t make sense with the “less than human” angle to it?
Read it again.

Question from FightingFat: If she is without sin, the only other person I know to compare her to in that respect is Jesus. Obviously, Mary is not GOD-man and thus very different from Jesus, but in this respect, the respect of sin, the Church says she was conceived immaculately and Jesus we know was born without sin, I ask you therefore, if being without sin makes Mary less than human, how you see Jesus. Is He less than human? Yes or no.

Furthermore…since I don’t hold too, or believe in what “the Church” says with regards to “their” Mary…how or why would you expect me to answer that question in any other way than I have already answered it , as stated before, to the best of my ability?

 

[Irish_Catholic_1]

Have you ever come across this idea from Fundamentalists? Mary was told by God she would carry Jesus and her acquiescence was irrelevant? Mary was not ASKED to bear the Messiah, she was TOLD she would. She simply acknowledged it would be done according to His will, not hers.

Any help? What Scripture should I be looking at here?

When she said “Let it be done unto me…”, that was obviously a choice and an act of her free will

 

[FightingFat]

Thank you FightingFat, but you don’t have to try to help me better understand what you believe…that has already been posted quite clearly by Raffo in post #25 - the vatican website with the Catechism of the Catholic church Para.6 - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church (Catholic church).

As to you being confused and thinking that I am being evasive in answering your simple question, I believe that has been clarified by yourself, in what you have posted below. It shows what you have accidentally, incorrectly interpeted and applied to what I actually posted.

Firstly, by the way that you’ve posted the above, with my name attached to it - it would appear to those just coming in now - that I actually at some point posted that comment - which I never have.

I had to go back and read through to see where this notion about Mary being *less than human *came from…and it is something that *you *have been putting forward…not me…if you read through carefully what I have posted…you will see that I truly believe in Mary’s humanity.

I was actually going in the other direction entirely…stating that the Catholic church has attempted to make Mary MORE than human.
Now that this has been clarified for you - and me - can you see that your question below simply doesn’t make sense with the “less than human” angle to it?
Read it again.

Furthermore…since I don’t hold too, or believe in what “the Church” says with regards to “their” Mary…how or why would you expect me to answer that question in any other way than I have already answered it , as stated before, to the best of my ability?

OK so you’re saying that the Church says Mary is MORE than human?

 

[FightingFat]

When she said “Let it be done unto me…”, that was obviously a choice and an act of her free will

Is that you Tom?