"Mary, Did You Know?" -- theologically correct?

[millersatthefar]

That song makes me nauseous. It is sappy, syrupy, and grossly overblown in it’s style and usually in its orchestration. My biggest problem is in its (not so) subtle diminuation of the Blessed Mother. Not every attack on her is a full frontal attack. Sometimes these little attacks, like the “Nativity” movie are more damaging when taken in their entirety. That song should never darken the door of a Catholic Church.

 

[simple_soul]

Indeed I can

When He was born, He was so beautiful.
He took her breath away, He stole her heart away.
She held Him close, to shield her baby boy;
this Holy Child, her life, her joy.

And when He smiled at her;
their eyes locked in a glance.
And not by chance she saw His love,
His selfless love shine from His Sacred Face;
So full of grace.
And Mary knew that she could never look away.

When just a little boy, He brought her flowers.
or helped her with some chore
around the house, always giving more.
She held Him close, to shield her baby boy;
this Holy child, her life, her joy.

And when He smiled at her.
their eyes locked in a glance.
And not by chance, she saw His love; His selfless love
shine from His Sacred Face; so full of grace.
and Mary knew that she could never look away.

She watched Him as He grew,
into a handsome man.
He took her breath away, He stole her heart away.
She had to let Him go, she could not
shield her baby boy.
And one day they crucified her life, her joy.

Through pain, He smiled at her.
Their eyes locked in a glance.
And not by chance, she saw His love,
His selfless love, shine from His Sacred Face;
bruised but full of grace.
And Mary knew she still could never look away.
Her eyes are on him to this day.
As our guide, she leads the way
in hopes that we, like her, will never look away.

Hi LilyM,

I agree this is sooo beautiful!!!

Did Nancy Krebbs record this song?
If not do you know where I could find a good recording of it being sung?
My daughter and I would love to add it to our list of favorits.

Thank you so much for sharing.

 

[MonFrere]

Indeed I can

When He was born, He was so beautiful.
He took her breath away, He stole her heart away.
She held Him close, to shield her baby boy;
this Holy Child, her life, her joy.

Thanks you LilyM!! You have proved my point! When confronted with better lyrics you go deeper into the mystery of the Incarnation and as a result you have a better song. I’m not even saying this song is great – but, it is good; unlike the problematic - Mary Did You Know?

MonFrere

 

[Linda_Marie]

How could Mary not have known?

Archangel Gabriel visits her in person, Elizabeth calls her the Mother of God, Archangel Gabriel comes to Joseph in a dream, not once but twice, first to tell him to take Mary to wife and the second to flee to Egypt. At His Presentation at the Temple, the prophet Simeon proclaims Him to be the Salvation of the World.

This song pretty much paints her as an imbecile, imo and places the singer in a position of superiority that looks down on Mary. That’s how it comes off to me, anyway.

Using the KJV:

bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Luke+1&version=9
26And in the sixth month the angel Gabriel was sent from God unto a city of Galilee, named Nazareth,

27To a virgin espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin’s name was Mary.

28And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

29And when she saw him, she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

30And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.

31And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.

** 32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. **

34Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?

35And the angel answered and said unto her, **The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. **
36And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren.

37For with God nothing shall be impossible.

38And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.

bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=luke&version1=9

41And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:

42And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

43And whence is this to me, that the **mother of my Lord **should come to me?

bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=luke+2&version1=9

25And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him.

26And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord’s Christ.

27And he came by the Spirit into the temple: and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him after the custom of the law,

28Then took he him up in his arms, and blessed God, and said,

**29Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word:

30For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,

31Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;

32A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. **
33And Joseph and his mother marvelled at those things which were spoken of him.

34And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

35(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

 

[simple_soul]

Thanks you LilyM!! You have proved my point! When confronted with better lyrics you go deeper into the mystery of the Incarnation and as a result you have a better song. I’m not even saying this song is great – but, it is good; unlike the problematic - Mary Did You Know?

MonFrere

Dear MonFrere,

I do not know how you think this proves your point.

When I sing and listen to “Mary did you know?” I reflect and hear the same things that I reflect and read in the lyrics of the song that LilyM Posted. (I hope this makes sense)

To me both songs say the same thing one just says it with less words and maybe a little simpler.

Again just my 2 cents

God bless

 

[pnewton]

EXACTLY!! And this is the extent of Mariology in Protestantism. THEY HAVE NO STATEMENT.

I was a Protestant for over 30 years and in all those years the only time Mary was mentioned was when the Catholic Church was mentioned and her errors. They are kind of stuck during Christmas time being that she was the one who gave birth to Jesus – but if the conversation gets into any detail the comment must be made that she was a sinner, just like us.

MonFrere

Every song does not need to make a statement about everything. Absence of a doctrinal statemen about one area in a song does not make it inappropriate or else no song would be appropriate. It is a Christmas song, not a Marian hymn. Unless something is theologically incorrect, it is fine. Theologically incomplete is irrelevant.

 

[pnewton]

Those of you that do not like it, don’t listen to it. That was not the question of the thread. Is the song theologically incorrect? Not is it sappy and not is it theologically incomplete.

 

[MonFrere]

Every song does not need to make a statement about everything. Absence of a doctrinal statemen about one area in a song does not make it inappropriate or else no song would be appropriate. It is a Christmas song, not a Marian hymn. Unless something is theologically incorrect, it is fine. Theologically incomplete is irrelevant.

Here’s what I wrote earlier. Maybe you missed this particular post.

I agree with your points. I’m just making some others that hopefully will bring some balance to a song that IMO has some legitimate limitations. In my Protestant days I played this song for a Christmas Eve service. Since then, I’ve learned and have become acquainted with songs that are much superior. Why choose something that’s much less when there are so much better to choose from. Hmmm… that’s not really my point; I’m saying that in the great scheme of things, there may be a place for this song – but that people should realize that this is not musically, lyrically and theologically the best from which there is to choose.

As a music director of our parish I make the decision to sing less that the best songs all the time. If a choir member or a parish member approaches me and wants to sing a hymn I don’t think is the best, I generally allow it. On this particular song I’m arguing points that emphasize the areas where this song comes up short.

I don’t agree with your statement --** Unless something is theologically incorrect, it is fine.**. Taking it to an extreme we could sing a song to Lucifer and as long as it wasn’t theologically incorrect we could sing it. There are some songs where the lyricist is very unskilled - and although the theology isn’t wrong - it may be OK – but why sing it? What I’m doing on this thread it to hold up an ideal. The song of this thread IMO is up for legitimate criticism. Is it the worst song ever written – hardly; it’s got a pleasant tune and tries to present an uplifting message. But THAT’S AS FAR AS IT GOES. I don’t think those two point make for a very high bar – the song is pleasant and it makes me feel good. Your standard for music is as high as your morning coffee. I think we can do a WHOLE LOT BETTER.

MonFrere

 

[pnewton]

I don’t agree with your statement --** Unless something is theologically incorrect, it is fine.**. Taking it to an extreme we could sing a song to Lucifer and as long as it wasn’t theologically incorrect we could sing it.

A song to Lucifer would almost have to be theologically incorrect. Okay, maybe the one about sitting on a tack.

I note from your post you speak a music director picking songs. I never supported the idea that this song would be good for Mass, just for listening around the house. That was the gist of the original question. I think some of the anger about this song has to do with thinking that it would be used in Mass. The two are separate issues and I see them intertwining some.

 

[MonFrere]

A song to Lucifer would almost have to be theologically incorrect. Okay, maybe the one about sitting on a tack.

A theologically correct song about a great fallen angel is certainly possible.

I note from your post you speak a music director picking songs. I never supported the idea that this song would be good for Mass, just for listening around the house. That was the gist of the original question. I think some of the anger about this song has to do with thinking that it would be used in Mass. The two are separate issues and I see them intertwining some.

I mentioned that all things being equal this song is worthy of listening. I’d give it a C; if I were a teacher. Nothing exceptional. Not strong theologically. Musically tuneful without being exceptional Lyrically, some nice ideas but nothing all that profoundly put together. You’ve got to give this piece a C because otherwise you take away from songs that ARE truly exceptional - that are theologically rich - that are theologically profound - that are musically superior. To my this is beyond debate because it’s so obvious.

MonFrere

 

[DaveBj]

snip

This song pretty much paints her as an imbecile, imo and places the singer in a position of superiority that looks down on Mary. That’s how it comes off to me, anyway.

Sorry, but I have to respond, because that statement is just plain wrong. The song actually says nothing about Mary. It says a lot about the curiosity of the point of view of the song-writer. It says, “Mary, did you know,” not "Mary, you didn’t know, so I have to tell you.

Full disclosure: this song falls into the Southern Gospel genre. I love Southern Gospel, in part because I grew up in it, but I can’t think of a single SG song that I would want to include in the Mass. That said, there is a lot of love for God and Jesus expressed in the SG repertoire. If you don’t like SG in general, and “Mary, Did You Know?” in particular, nobody is holding a gun to your head and making you listen to it. But one should not criticize what one does not understand.

DaveBj

 

[pnewton]

I mentioned that all things being equal this song is worthy of listening. I’d give it a C; if I were a teacher. Nothing exceptional. Not strong theologically. Musically tuneful without being exceptional Lyrically, some nice ideas but nothing all that profoundly put together. You’ve got to give this piece a C because otherwise you take away from songs that ARE truly exceptional - that are theologically rich - that are theologically profound - that are musically superior. To my this is beyond debate because it’s so obvious.

MonFrere

I hope you understand that what you call beyond debate is still just an opinion. Some of the items you mention are nothing more than taste. I am sure everyone else recognizes it and excepts that their opinion is not an objective reality. Asparigus is really not a better vegetable than broccoli, beyond debate. Arguements may be made about it being more expensive or used in higher class restraunts, but it is still not an objective fact. Yes, it is beyond debate, but not because it is obvious, but because it is subjective. One can not intelligently argue subjective tastes.

 

[pnewton]

Full disclosure: this song falls into the Southern Gospel genre. I love Southern Gospel, in part because I grew up in it, but I can’t think of a single SG song that I would want to include in the Mass

Southern Gospel often takes a hit by those who do not like it. I am not a fan of Wagner, but I would not call him inferior because I do not like his music.

 

[MonFrere]

I hope you understand that what you call beyond debate is still just an opinion. Some of the items you mention are nothing more than taste.

I’m sorry but I do not agree here. All art is not equal. There are objective criteria that one can use to evaluate art. If you put this song through objective criteria to evaluate art next to others, let’s say Totus Tuus of Gorecki -* Mary, Did You Know* will come up short - EVERY TIME. This isn’t just “my opinion vs your opinion”. There’s too much of this relativistic mush going around today that’s favorably comparing very poor art to true works of art that is simply and OBJECTIVELY wrong. My evaluation of this piece is probably generous compared to how others who have studied and have made art their profession. If you cannot take the opinion of others who will tell you that this piece is “limited” in its artistic expression – then your ability to perceive true works of art is going to be continually impressed with inferior work. In the eternal scheme of things this is no big deal; but to believe that this is just “my opinion vs your opinion” is wrongheaded.

MonFrere

 

[MonFrere]

Sorry, but I have to respond, because that statement is just plain wrong. The song actually says nothing about Mary. It says a lot about the curiosity of the point of view of the song-writer. It says, “Mary, did you know,” not "Mary, you didn’t know, so I have to tell you.

Actually, Linda Marie’s interpretation of the words is a legitimate one to take. It’s not wrong; it’s a possible interpretation. As I said before - if the songs says NOTHING ABOUT MARY (as you state) - and Mary is simply the “personal vehicle for the words to be sung to” – then, yea, Mary is just any old person who is basically being taught by the person doing the singing. If THIS isn’t a subtly put down of Our Lady I don’t know what it – it may be an unintentional put down - but it is still a put down. Protestants just don’t know what to do with our Blessed Mother and IMO this song proves it. Our Lady deserves much better treatment than this.

MonFrere

 

[Pons]

Immaculate Conceoption isn’t written in scripture. Where are you getting your information?

To boil it down to one word, “kecharitomene”.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Tezza;6006871:

hahaha…the people in my choir call me the Catholic police. I brought up this issue as well.

Immaculate Conception…she was already saved. The merit of Christ’s death and resurrection was applied to her prior to being touched by sin. For us, it’s after.

So, yeah, not theologically accurate.

I personally like the song (theological inaccuracies aside), just not for Mass.

Immaculate Conceoption isn’t written in scripture. Wher are you getting your information?

bluelake

Neither is the theological term “trinity”. However, the basis for this belief is there.

 

[MariaG]

I absolutely love that song. I never can listen to it sung without crying, most especially sung by Wynona Judd.

I do not find it belittling to Mary at all. Probably because in my mind, I see it as very similar to the second song posted.

And the line, save her soon, I always see as a reference to the cross. Not a denial of her Immaculate conception but another question along the lines of the great things her Son was going to do.

The word escapes me as to what kind of prayer it is, contemplative?, but I have always loved to pray the Rosary and put myself in different peoples shoes. When contemplating the sorrowful mysteries, I always cry when I imagine sitting at the cross as Mary did, watching her Son being crucified.

That song, is very similar for me, in the emothions it brings up. While it may not mean the same thing to everyone, I can’t help but think that anytime someone thinks of Mary, she will always point to her son, and that can only be a good thing.

Theologically correct:shrug: Depends on how one interprets it. For me, I see no problems. It is poetry.

God Bless,
Maria

 

[NHInsider]

Actually, Linda Marie’s interpretation of the words is a legitimate one to take. It’s not wrong; it’s a possible interpretation. As I said before - if the songs says NOTHING ABOUT MARY (as you state) - and Mary is simply the “personal vehicle for the words to be sung to” – then, yea, Mary is just any old person who is basically being taught by the person doing the singing. If THIS isn’t a subtly put down of Our Lady I don’t know what it – it may be an unintentional put down - but it is still a put down. Protestants just don’t know what to do with our Blessed Mother and IMO this song proves it. Our Lady deserves much better treatment than this.

MonFrere

Actually, devotional expressions that suggest that Mary had, for example, foreknowledge of the details of Jesus’ mission, or that she could comprehend the incomprehensible Mystery of the Incarnation, or any other such notion, in my opinion undermines the awesomeness of what she actually did, which was to give her assent to the unknowable, incomprehensible request that God made of her, and then live in faithful service to His will throughout the rest of her life.

And maybe it’s just because I’ve BEEN a mother, but I do think that the song is moving precisely in the ways that it emphasizes the genuine humanity of both Mary and Jesus.

There are two dangers in our struggles with the Mystery of the Incarnation. One is that we focus on the true Man and lose sight of the Divine. The other is that we focus on True God and lose sight of the Human. Both have led, historically, to heresy. A song that brings this into sharp relief in words ordinary people can understand (when you kiss your little Baby, you kiss the face of God, etc) has actual catechetical value.

 

[MonFrere]

A song that brings this into sharp relief in words ordinary people can understand (when you kiss your little Baby, you kiss the face of God, etc) has actual catechetical value.

I think that is a very valid point. I just hope that mine are not going unnoticed.

MonFrere