"Mary, Did You Know?" -- theologically correct?

[kimmielittle]

If one were to argue from font size, you would be right.

I have never seen these three in the same category.

There was a great show on cable this week on the subjective and objective nature of beauty. While we as a species oft find ourselves in agreement on many issues, cross-cultural analysis shows that most of our ideas of beauty are learned, not objective. As a blue-collar Southerner who was raised by dirt poor, cotton-picking Okies, I have a different view on what constitutes beautiful music and great literature. On the other hand, unlike those that grew up in a different lifestyle, I can appreciate other forms of music and art. The only thing I will never appreciate is being told that I am wrong for my taste. It is my subjective opinion that such statements of opinion being presented as fact are snobbish and elitist.

:clapping::clapping:

 

[MonFrere]

The only thing I will never appreciate is being told that I am wrong for my taste. It is my subjective opinion that such statements of opinion being presented as fact are snobbish and elitist.

I presented some (in my view) superficial comments on the musical superiority of Totus Tuus as compared to Mary Did You Know.

Argue you point. Prove me wrong. Give me something a little bit more than that’s just “my” opinion and all art is subjective anyway - therefore anyone who would have the audacity to say that a piece of music is categorically better than another one is automatically a snob and elitist. I’ve written forcefully but I have not called people snobs or elitists.

BTW - I did NOT say you were wrong for your taste. I don’t think God gives a fig with how sophisticated our musical tastes are developed. But, for those whom he gave the ability - He requires a return. The music you like is the music you like. I’m not upset that you enjoy Mary Did You Know. A lot of people on this thread like it. I can understand why. It’s tuneful and is generally inspirational. Some people on this thread thought the song had some limitations. I think their points were valid. If I am commanded by God to love people with all their limitations and sins – I can certainly live with a piece of music that has limitations. Unfortunately, some people take it very personally when you point out something they like as having limitations. For some reason you started coming after me. When you said that my opinion was just my opinion is when I decided that I am not going to let that point stand - because IMO that opinion is flatly false. The more you come at me with that opinion - the more I’m going to come back and attack it. So, to go back to my original point of this post. Prove that Mary Did You Know is musically superior to Totus Tuus. If you can do that then you can argue music and not just express the opinion of a music lover. If you cannot, then I recommend you just let this go. I’m sure we have an awful lot we can agree on in other topics. I will make it a point to agree with you when such a time occurs.

MonFrere

 

[AmbroseSJ]

I presented some (in my view) superficial comments on the musical superiority of Totus Tuus as compared to Mary Did You Know.

Argue you point. Prove me wrong. Give me something a little bit more than that’s just “my” opinion and all art is subjective anyway - therefore anyone who would have the audacity to say that a piece of music is categorically better than another one is automatically a snob and elitist. I’ve written forcefully but I have not called people snobs or elitists.

BTW - I did NOT say you were wrong for your taste. I don’t think God gives a fig with how sophisticated our musical tastes are developed. But, for those whom he gave the ability - He requires a return. The music you like is the music you like. I’m not upset that you enjoy Mary Did You Know. A lot of people on this thread like it. I can understand why. It’s tuneful and is generally inspirational. Some people on this thread thought the song had some limitations. I think their points were valid. If I am commanded by God to love people with all their limitations and sins – I can certainly live with a piece of music that has limitations. Unfortunately, some people take it very personally when you point out something they like as having limitations. For some reason you started coming after me. When you said that my opinion was just my opinion is when I decided that I am not going to let that point stand - because IMO that opinion is flatly false. The more you come at me with that opinion - the more I’m going to come back and attack it. So, to go back to my original point of this post. Prove that Mary Did You Know is musically superior to Totus Tuus. If you can do that then you can argue music and not just express the opinion of a music lover. If you cannot, then I recommend you just let this go. I’m sure we have an awful lot we can agree on in other topics. I will make it a point to agree with you when such a time occurs.

MonFrere

Go Bro!

Although taste in music certainly varies, subjective beauty is not a hallmark of good liturgical music. Good theology and prayerful lyrics are. That is why the Psalms are the most perfect hymns ever written.

 

[Brendan]

From my point of reference, I think the song is “asking” Mary “did she/you know”? The words are not saying she didn’t. .

But one of the things that they are ‘asking’ her is blantly false.

Did you know that the son you just delivered will soon deliver you?

Christ would NOT ‘soon deliever’ her. She had already BEEN delivered, the merits of the Cross had already and fully been applied to her at the moment of her conception.

 

[pnewton]

Christ would NOT ‘soon deliever’ her. She had already BEEN delivered, the merits of the Cross had already and fully been applied to her at the moment of her conception.

But the cross had** not** yet happened, so Jesus would soon deliver her who had been delivered. The grammar used is as accurate as saying she had already been delivered, that is to say, neither is accurate. It is a temporal issue that is resolved only by God being who He is.

 

[Brendan]

But the cross had** not** yet happened, so Jesus would soon deliver her who had been delivered. The grammar used is as accurate as saying she had already been delivered, that is to say, neither is accurate. It is a temporal issue that is resolved only by God being who He is.

But the MERITS of the Cross are Enternal, and had already been applied to her.

So you are very, very wrong. The child Mary delivered would NOT soon deliver her, the child ALREADY HAD!!!. There is no other understanding that a Catholic legitimately hold.

Nothing remained in Mary for the child to deliver her from that was not already done.

 

[Gertabelle]

**To put things in terms that you may understand – **do you want to study your theology from an enthusiast or someone schooled in theology, a leader in their field, and someone who has pondered deeply about the theological issues of his time. For me to say that “Mary, Did You Know?” was superior to Totus Tuus would be for me to betray my lifetime of study in the field of music.

**Another possibility is that there is a possibility that someone can be more knowledge able on a topic than another. ** False piety is also based upon pride.

MonFrere

:bowdown:

Well I guess I’ll just burn my Bachelor of Music degree and throw away all my composition manuscripts, opera scores, and piano music – all of which I thoroughly studied as part of my undergraduate degree (I couldn’t commit to a major, so I studied all three privately at the college of music at my university). I will sell my piano, guitars, harp, recorders, flute, and violin, and never sing another note, nor conduct another choir, nor write another piece of music. Good thing an expert such as yourself came along to point out my inferiority.:bowdown2: (and “in terms I could understand” :extrahappy

And to further prove my ignorance (old History of Music professor would have LOVED this discussion ), I stand by my original assertion that your opinion that Gorecki’s piece is empirically superior to Lowry’s is, in fact, mere opinion, and is based solely on the criteria determined by the one holding the opinion. According to your criteria, your opinion is correct. Congratulations.

As for false piety, not sure who you’re pointing the finger at, but it’s best to be careful what you write. Uncharitable posts are not tolerated by the moderators of these forums.

And now, back to the dissertation work

Gertie

 

[MonFrere]

And to further prove my ignorance (old History of Music professor would have LOVED this discussion ), I stand by my original assertion that your opinion that Gorecki’s piece is empirically superior to Lowry’s is, in fact, mere opinion, and is based solely on the criteria determined by the one holding the opinion. According to your criteria, your opinion is correct.

I have said a couple times, maybe more, that if you would take a poll of educated musicians there would be, in my estimation, an overwhelming majority who would say Gorecki’s Totus Tuus is musically superior to Mary, Did You Know. I absolutely could not understand an opinion going any other way. I am amazed that a trained musician would actually argue with something so obvious. My opinion really should not be controversial in the least.

I do know that there are cultural elites (true ones, not a peon like myself) that are making it their business to demote everything European or Western; because to do so would be to demote the only civilization that was built from the foundation of Christianity. In order to do this there is the need to relativize cultures making them all equal. Nothing can be deemed superior; especially anything European or Christian. Perhaps when you got your education you were taught from this spring. If you were, I understand where you are coming from. Because it is only then that one can compare a piece of music from pop culture to a piece from a composer steeped in the western tradition of art and come to the assumption that they can be fairly and favorably compared.

Educators, especially those in the elite schools - that teach the educators for the less elite schools - are in the opinion forming business. They elites are on a campaign of hatred to eliminate the influence of Christianity and western culture by first putting it on a equal playing field with all other cultures - and then to destroy it. A lot of people have been drinking the kool-aid not realizing it – so credit has got to be given to the elites for being so subtle and smooth in their propaganda campaign. So, subtle that, in fact, they believe that a fine piece of art music can’t possibly be deemed superior to a (admitted by several members of this CAF forum to be problematic) piece of music from pop culture AND in the process grill the person trying to uphold the goodness of western art and music and accuse him of being proud, a snob, and (the most bizarre of them all) an elitist. Such is the power of those who have an agenda to form opinion.

MonFrere

 

[pnewton]

But the MERITS of the Cross are Enternal, and had already been applied to her.

So you are very, very wrong. .

Extra “very” always makes for better points. I am not very wrong. I am not wrong. I understand what you are saying and I understand the Catholic teaching. What I do not agree with you on is what the song is saying. But never mind. I have found when people come across with statements like “you are very, very wrong” there is not arguing with them.

Don’t listen if you think it is so bad.

 

[Gertabelle]

I have said a couple times, maybe more, that if you would take a poll of educated musicians there would be, in my estimation, an overwhelming majority who would say Gorecki’s Totus Tuus is musically superior to Mary, Did You Know. I absolutely could not understand an opinion going any other way. I am amazed that a trained musician would actually argue with something so obvious. My opinion really should not be controversial in the least.

MonFrere

It is not your opinion that is controversial, but the attitude with which you have expressed your opinions on this thread.

Honestly, dear one, I fear you take your training and knowledge way too seriously. Personally, I deeply dislike the song “Mary, Did You Know?” Even if it is theologically passable, I don’t like it. I began this thread to request information about its theological validity, not it’s musical ranking in the world of music history. A group at my parish is going to sing this song before Christmas mass, and I was seeking some background on the song.

In fact, I did not ever say in any of my posts that I even liked the song, let alone that I thought it was better than anything else. The only reason I even began responding to your posts was the tone I perceived in them. My point was never that “Mary, Did You Know” was a better song than Gorecki’s or anyone else’s.

I’ll admit, I “heard” condescension in your posts, and it irked me. I’m done being so completely off topic on this thread. You can start your own thread to discuss what constitutes musical excellence, and I will gladly come over and rock the boat. Personally, I’ll agree that Gorecki’s piece is more musically sophisticated (and better listening in my opinion). But as for which piece is musically superior, I will continue to leave that judgment in the ears and heart of the listener.

My philosophy is that musical experiences are not for the purpose of intense concentration and analysis. Music as an art form exists only in time. Notation is not music, any more than choreographic notes are dance. Music (and dance) only exist when it is being heard. If someone hears a piece of music and it touches them deeply, who are we to argue that the song is musically inferior to anything else in existence? Music theorists are welcome to deconstruct every note ever written to their heart’s content. But all that deconstruction will never explain the “purpose” of music, its persistant place of honor (with regard to the relegation of resources) in human existance, nor the human need for music, or its ability to touch the human heart. These variables are what make music (and the arts in general) always out of the grasp of those who would try to definitively quantify every aspect of it, including labeling one piece of music indisputably better than another.

But that’s just my own opinion, and now I really need to put my analyzing and writing abilities back to work on my dissertation. No more playing around here (at least not with this “off” topic).

Gertie

 

[MonFrere]

It is not your opinion that is controversial, but the attitude with which you have expressed your opinions on this thread.

Gertie,

Thanks for your reply. It clarified things quite a bit.

I request one more response from you to this post, and then off to your dissertation.

Last, evening I read this thread from the beginning and did indeed spot your being the originator of this thread. I also noted your “lack of enthusiasm” for Mary, Did You Know.

Finally, what you wrote is this last reply about your approach to music did I begin to understand your musical worldview. It is an educated worldview and it is a informed worldview. I appreciate and respect that. I wish you the very best in your musical profession.

About my “condescension”. Generally, I do not take such a strong stand as I did in this thread. The point that irked me was when I was told basically that in spite of my experience and training all I had to offer on this thread was simply my opinion – therefore; it’s equal to all others because opinion is opinion. That’s a falsehood of serious and tragic implications. That’s when this thread got “off topic”. That’s when I decided to become more forceful and put some strength behind my opinion. I can honestly say that I did not do this with any thought of superiority. When I said last evening that I’m a peon; I really mean that. In the great scheme of things I’m a very average guy just doing what he can to make this world a bit better than when I came here. But when I make an opinion on a musical topic - it is an informed and educated opinion of one who has been involved in music for several decades. My opinion, therefore, has value and is not equal to one who doesn’t have the same experience education and information. When someone comes at me promoting such an attitude - I attack; and I attack hard.

Thank you for admitting the obvious concerning the two pieces. All I will say is that if you would have first admitted MY POINT – I would have readily admitted an understanding that even though music can be judged by objective standards - there is a strong subjective element to the formation of ones opinion.

Having said all that I still hold to my strong opinion that

Without any equivocation “Totus Tuus” is musically superior "Mary, Did You Know?"

I do not do this to irk you. I do this to hold to my point that my opinion is educated and informed and deserves more respect than for anyone to come at me and say – Well, that’s just YOUR opinion.

Very best,
MonFrere

 

[kimmielittle]

It is not your opinion that is controversial, but the attitude with which you have expressed your opinions on this thread.

Honestly, dear one, I fear you take your training and knowledge way too seriously. Personally, I deeply dislike the song “Mary, Did You Know?” Even if it is theologically passable, I don’t like it. I began this thread to request information about its theological validity, not it’s musical ranking in the world of music history. A group at my parish is going to sing this song before Christmas mass, and I was seeking some background on the song.

In fact, I did not ever say in any of my posts that I even liked the song, let alone that I thought it was better than anything else. The only reason I even began responding to your posts was the tone I perceived in them. My point was never that “Mary, Did You Know” was a better song than Gorecki’s or anyone else’s.

I’ll admit, I “heard” condescension in your posts, and it irked me. I’m done being so completely off topic on this thread. You can start your own thread to discuss what constitutes musical excellence, and I will gladly come over and rock the boat. Personally, I’ll agree that Gorecki’s piece is more musically sophisticated (and better listening in my opinion). But as for which piece is musically superior, I will continue to leave that judgment in the ears and heart of the listener.

My philosophy is that musical experiences are not for the purpose of intense concentration and analysis. Music as an art form exists only in time. Notation is not music, any more than choreographic notes are dance. Music (and dance) only exist when it is being heard. If someone hears a piece of music and it touches them deeply, who are we to argue that the song is musically inferior to anything else in existence? Music theorists are welcome to deconstruct every note ever written to their heart’s content. But all that deconstruction will never explain the “purpose” of music, its persistant place of honor (with regard to the relegation of resources) in human existance, nor the human need for music, or its ability to touch the human heart. These variables are what make music (and the arts in general) always out of the grasp of those who would try to definitively quantify every aspect of it, including labeling one piece of music indisputably better than another.

But that’s just my own opinion, and now I really need to put my analyzing and writing abilities back to work on my dissertation. No more playing around here (at least not with this “off” topic).

Gertie

Great post!

 

[pnewton]

Without any equivocation “Totus Tuus” is musically superior "Mary, Did You Know?"

I do not do this to irk you.

Then do not use large, bold font. In this venue, it is considered shouting and a little on the rude side. If you think your point is so objectively true, you shouldn’t need such tactics.

 

[MonFrere]

Then do not use large, bold font. In this venue, it is considered shouting and a little on the rude side. If you think your point is so objectively true, you shouldn’t need such tactics.

I do not THINK it’s objectively – I KNOW it’s objectively true.

 

[MonFrere]

And another thing …

I was thinking in the car and thunk me some thoughts. A couple points.

About being condescending … I do not think I was being condescending to anyone here on this forum. I was making my point strongly and forcefully. I was attacking ideas and not people; even though those ideas were addressed to specific people. If anyone’s person was attacked it was me. And I think I behaved myself well, in that I did not retaliate by attacking back. My focus has always been on the points I’ve been trying to make.

Personally, I’ll agree that Gorecki’s piece is more musically sophisticated (and better listening in my opinion). But as for which piece is musically superior, I will continue to leave that judgment in the ears and heart of the listener.

Reading between the lines here I sense that you agree with me; but to flat out type it would be too much. If you will read what I wrote I never said MDYN wasn’t a piece without any merit. It has merit. What I really think is irking the daylights out of people is the fact that I say without equivocation that one piece is superior to another. Everyone here seems to be heaping on and saying that I cannot speak with such assurance. IMO you are copping out by saying “musical superiority” is something for the listener to determine. People can naturally know what they like and do not like, what naturally pleases them or doesn’t please them. They can rank things in an order of their personal preference. But, unless trained, they accurately cannot judge or determine them in relation to their superiority for the simple reason they don’t have the tools as to how to make a reasoned judgment. IMO - musically superior was an ill chosen word for what you were trying to express. Let’s apply this to wine tasting. People who drink wine and appreciate it like what they like. They can rank various wines to the degree it pleases them. But to know what a superior wine is is for another category of folk - those who have studied and informed themselves as to how to discern what makes a particular vintage superior to another. I simply conclude by saying if my statement (that which I have several time put in BOLD LARGE TYPE; which I won’t do again as to not make poor brother pnewton cringe) is so false why can no one prove what it is false - and why instead do I get accused of all manner of sin.

There are Catholic who are writing books such as: WHY CATHOLICS CANNOT SING. I’m not going to agree or disagree with the author’s premise but I’ll simply say that there has got to be some reason or some information out there that would cause a person to write on this topic. And if you talk to serious Catholics they will almost down to a person say that our contemporary music for liturgy is a very weak body of work. How could this not be the case when a musically weak and theologically deficient piece of music is justified as being OK in spite of its limitations. If we accept pieces that our theologically minded members AND our musically informed members see as deficient is it no wonder that our liturgical music is indeed a very weak body of work. We’re perpetuating this because of complacency in accepting the inferior. And when I, or any other informed person, points this out they are attacked as being condescending. Goodness gracious – cannot we see that this is a circle that’s going to go nowhere toward bringing our music to a state of excellence.

I know Gertie may not like my attitude - that’s OK (I don’t think it’s going to be forever), she got other things on her mind right now - but from the little glimmers she has given in this thread I know that we are in the same camp and perhaps on another day and another topic we will be singing the same tune because we are both in the same choir and singing the same part – bringing our musical gifts to the service of the Church.

MonFrere

 

[kimmielittle]

~sigh~

The topic is:“Mary, Did You Know?” – theologically correct?

We know that it isn’t.

Appreciation of music is completely subjective to the performer / listener…and a different subject.

I hope this helps

 

[MonFrere]

Appreciation of music is completely subjective to the performer / listener…and a different subject.

Different subject. Yes; but this is hardly the first thread that has morphed into another topic. No need to sigh.

Music is NOT completely subjective. I’m sorry. There’s objective criteria to evaluate the elements of musical composition. The reason it’s all “subjective” to you is simply because you have never formally studied it to understand it to be able to discern its objective parts and structure. So, to you it’s all subjective. That’s fine. Your life I’m sure is full and rich without knowing anything about this. My life is full and rich and I’ve never formally studied theology. But it’s because of ignorance that you make this comment; not an ignorance becauset you’re not intelligent. I gather you’re a bright person from the comments you make. It’s an ignorance because you’ve just not given it the time. But that’s OK. My profession is based upon people like you who would like to learn a bit more so I can give them objective information to add to their subjective experience. People actually pay me for this. I give it here for free - and I’m a snob because it goes against your subjective experiences. The reason no one can prove my infamous statement wrong is EXACTLY because of your total subjective experience of music you have no tools from which to argue your side. Because you do not have any objective understanding or experience in music you assume that I cannot either — and so, round and round we go.

I’m beginning to realize that music is no different than religion or theology. People can only accept something if they open themselves to learn. Of course I say this realizing that with the one finger I point at anyone reading this thread – there are three pointing back at me.

Again, what I’m saying is painfully obvious to me; but it seems that there’s not much of a mood for learning on the topic this thread has morphed into at this time. But believe it or not - it has been a learning experience for me. I’m glad I stuck it out to the end (at least this far).

Best to you kimmie.

MonFrere

 

[inkaneer]

From my point of reference, I think the song is “asking” Mary “did she/you know”? The words are not saying she didn’t. My personal opinion is that she didn’t fully know what was in store for her in anguish and heartbreak in seeing her Son crucified. There are a few lines in Scripture that lead one to think she didn’t. ie. The Finding of the Child Jesus in the Temple, “Why have you treated us this way”. His answer, “Did you not know I must be about my Father’s business?” At the Presentation of the Infant Jesus at the Temple eight days after His birth, The Prophetess Anna tells Mary a “Sword will pierce your heart”. Simeon? says he can now die in peace because he has seen his savior. “Mary took these words and pondered them in her heart”.

I agree 100% We have the benefit of being able to look back on 2000 years of christianity and the knowledge that comes with that history. But what did Mary really know? As recorded in the Gospel her conversation with the angel Gabriel was very brief and her response was a response based on faith rather than knowledge. She knew that her baby would be the Messiah but she did not know how it would all play out. My view of the song is a modern day person trying to reach back in time to that moment in the stable in Bethlehem as Mary looks down on her newborn son and comtemplates what all new parents comtemplate, what the future will bring. The songwriter asks the questions that he already knows the answers to and seemingly wanting to know if Mary knows too. But the questions are really rhetorical questions directed to the listener to comtemplate. I see no theological incorrectness in the song. Some of the lyrics can be interpreted or understood differently by various groups. But the same is true of the scriptures too. Does anyone therefore question whether the scriptures are theologically correct?

 

[phrederik]

i love this song! i’m amazed that people question its correctness. Mary was born without original sin so that the Lord would have an appropriate first home on earth, without His death on the cross, she, like all of mankind, would not have been ‘delivered’ to heaven as the gates were closed

peace of Christ!

 

[Cracker_Mom]

Different subject. Yes; but this is hardly the first thread that has morphed into another topic. No need to sigh.

Music is NOT completely subjective. I’m sorry. There’s objective criteria to evaluate the elements of musical composition. The reason it’s all “subjective” to you is simply because you have never formally studied it to understand it to be able to discern its objective parts and structure. So, to you it’s all subjective. That’s fine. Your life I’m sure is full and rich without knowing anything about this. My life is full and rich and I’ve never formally studied theology. But it’s because of ignorance that you make this comment; not an ignorance becauset you’re not intelligent. I gather you’re a bright person from the comments you make. It’s an ignorance because you’ve just not given it the time. But that’s OK. My profession is based upon people like you who would like to learn a bit more so I can give them objective information to add to their subjective experience. People actually pay me for this. I give it here for free - and I’m a snob because it goes against your subjective experiences. The reason no one can prove my infamous statement wrong is EXACTLY because of your total subjective experience of music you have no tools from which to argue your side. Because you do not have any objective understanding or experience in music you assume that I cannot either — and so, round and round we go.

I’m beginning to realize that music is no different than religion or theology. People can only accept something if they open themselves to learn. Of course I say this realizing that with the one finger I point at anyone reading this thread – there are three pointing back at me.

Again, what I’m saying is painfully obvious to me; but it seems that there’s not much of a mood for learning on the topic this thread has morphed into at this time. But believe it or not - it has been a learning experience for me. I’m glad I stuck it out to the end (at least this far).

Best to you kimmie.

MonFrere

I appreciate your responses.I think it’s OK for a conversation to take a turn.
There is an arguement for different levels of music. There are compositions that are musically superior to others. You only have to open a Catholic hymnal to figure that out.
There’s no accounting for taste though. Or what may move one person emotionally.Music goes beyond the intellectual & academic.