Mary Did You Know???

[MusicMan]

Indeed.

May the peace of Christmas be with all of you this night.

 

[benedictgal]

After Choir practice this morning, several college students from our parish came in to practice a piece for tonight’s Midnight Mass (My group is doing Mass during the day tomorrow).

A couple of these students were alums of my program and asked me to stick around and listen. They’re singing Mary, Did You Know. I made a comment about this thread to one of the students … her response, “But, it’s so beautiful.”

As I listened to their rehearsal, I really got the sense that the song has nothing to do with Mary. The lyricist is only using Mary as a vehicle to speak to us about the wonder of the Incarnation and the life Jesus would lead. It’s not about “Mary, did you know,” but it’s about, “hey, you guys, did you know? Isn’t this a wondrous event?!”

I hate to say this, but, with all due respect, you can put pink lipstick and pearls on a sow, but, in the final analysis, it’s still a pig.

It’s interesting that people will find creative ways to defend this song. But, it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. No matter how pretty a tune is, we really can’t find any justifiable reason to sing something that goes squarely against the teachings of the Church.

With a plethora of solid and doctrinally-rich and traditional Catholic hymns, why would anyone want to use something that is contrary to Church teaching? We have Joy to the World; O Come All Ye Faithful and others. In fact, why not use the propers, like what was done at Midnight Mass in Rome? It was beautiful.

 

[MusicMan]

That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I strongly disagree with your assessment of the piece, and I will make my musical decisions based on my training and background in music – pastoral and education, the expectations of my pastor, and my comprehension of the relevant documents.

I didn’t do this piece this year, but I see nothing in this thread to discourage me from programming it next year.

 

[CWBetts]

That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I strongly disagree with your assessment of the piece, and I will make my musical decisions based on my training and background in music – pastoral and education, the expectations of my pastor, and my comprehension of the relevant documents.

I didn’t do this piece this year, but I see nothing in this thread to discourage me from programming it next year.

So inconsistency with Cathoic doctirne isn’t enough?

 

[MusicMan]

I’ll change the lyric about “will deliver” to “has delivered,” and viola, it fits with our pitiful human need to impose linear time on God.

 

[psr13]

Well, the church we went to had Mary Did You Know before the priest compared the birth of Jesus to a football game.

 

[pnewton]

It’s interesting that people will find creative ways to defend this song. But, it’s like trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. No matter how pretty a tune is, we really can’t find any justifiable reason to sing something that goes squarely against the teachings of the Church.

With a plethora of solid and doctrinally-rich and traditional Catholic hymns, why would anyone want to use something that is contrary to Church teaching? We have Joy to the World; O Come All Ye Faithful and others. In fact, why not use the propers, like what was done at Midnight Mass in Rome? It was beautiful.

I think the point is that it doesn’t squarely go against Catholic doctrine, only in s side-ways, implied way. Still, your second point makes me never even consider the song. I have enough to do squeezing in all the common Christmas carols that people love to sing. I don’t go into solos when good congregational singing is available.

 

[benedictgal]

That’s your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. I strongly disagree with your assessment of the piece, and I will make my musical decisions based on my training and background in music – pastoral and education, the expectations of my pastor, and my comprehension of the relevant documents.

I didn’t do this piece this year, but I see nothing in this thread to discourage me from programming it next year.

But, there is also a very important detail that was left out. One can have pastoral and musical training, but, with all due respect, if doctrinal and theological understanding are missing, then all of the musical background in the world will not justify inclusion of this song.

The song goes against what the Church teaches about the Blessed Mother. It was written by a Protestant who doesn’t understand the Church’s Marian doctrine and dogma because he doesn’t subscribe to it. That should raise a huge red flag.

The fact that people insist on defending this song as suitable for the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass makes me wonder just what authoritative documents of the Holy See they are reading to justify this choice.

I have chosen the music for Sunday Masses, the Chrism Mass, Holy Week, Christmas and ordinations, as well the dedication of the Cathedral. While I am not a musician, I have read the authoritative documents of the Holy See and made my decisions based on what they say. Yes, I locked horns with someone who is a musician, but, she couldn’t justify her choices based on the documents so her selections were rarely used.

At least, thank God, we didn’t hear this song during any of our Masses at my parish.

 

[MusicMan]

I’ve read the documents too, and I’ve been in this business for a long time. It is your opinion that the song is inappropriate. I do not agree with your assessment, nor your justification as to why. It’s really that simple.

 

[benedictgal]

I’ve read the documents too, and I’ve been in this business for a long time. It is your opinion that the song is inappropriate. I do not agree with your assessment, nor your justification as to why. It’s really that simple.

The documents that I have read are the authoritative ones from the Holy See, including what Pope St. Pius X wrote, which was reconfirmed by the Servant of God Pope John Paul II:

1. In continuity with the teachings of St Pius X and the Second Vatican Council, it is necessary first of all to emphasize that music destined for sacred rites must have holiness as its reference point: indeed, “sacred music increases in holiness to the degree that it is intimately linked with liturgical action”[11]. For this very reason, “not all without distinction that is outside the temple (profanum) is fit to cross its threshold”, my venerable Predecessor Paul VI wisely said, commenting on a Decree of the Council of Trent[12]. And he explained that “if music - instrumental and vocal - does not possess at the same time the sense of prayer, dignity and beauty, it precludes the entry into the sphere of the sacred and the religious”[13]. Today, moreover, the meaning of the category “sacred music” has been broadened to include repertoires that cannot be part of the celebration without violating the spirit and norms of the Liturgy itself.

St Pius X’s reform aimed specifically at purifying Church music from the contamination of profane theatrical music that in many countries had polluted the repertoire and musical praxis of the Liturgy. In our day too, careful thought, as I emphasized in the Encyclical Ecclesia de Eucharistia, should be given to the fact that not all the expressions of figurative art or of music are able “to express adequately the mystery grasped in the fullness of the Church’s faith”[14]. Consequently, not all forms of music can be considered suitable for liturgical celebrations.

Now, this is what Pope St. Piux X wrote in his letter:

Nothing should have place, therefore, in the temple calculated to disturb or even merely to diminish the piety and devotion of the faithful, nothing that may give reasonable cause for disgust or scandal, nothing, above all, which directly offends the decorum and sanctity of the sacred functions and is thus unworthy of the House of Prayer and of the Majesty of God.

…1. Sacred music, being a complementary part of the solemn liturgy, participates in the general scope of the liturgy, which is the glory of God and the sanctification and edification of the faithful. It contributes to the decorum and the splendor of the ecclesiastical ceremonies, and since its principal office is to clothe with suitable melody the liturgical text proposed for the understanding of the faithful, its proper aim is to add greater efficacy to the text, in order that through it the faithful may be the more easily moved to devotion and better disposed for the reception of the fruits of grace belonging to the celebration of the most holy mysteries.

1. Sacred music should consequently possess, in the highest degree, the qualities proper to the liturgy, and in particular sanctity and goodness of form, which will spontaneously produce the final quality of universality.

It must be holy, and must, therefore, exclude all profanity not only in itself, but in the manner in which it is presented by those who execute it.

When holding up the song that you are defending to the standards set by both Pontiffs, it doesn’t add up. In fact, it is the kind of music that is not fit to cross the threshhold.

 

[Kolbelover]

Benedictgal is 100% correct (as usual!) with respect to using this song during the Mass… it is not allowed. period.

I am a Choir Director and was put in a very uncomfortable position with respect to this song this year:

One of my young choir members worked up this song with our former director (from whom she takes voice lessons) to sing for the vigil Mass. I was approached to let her do it. Some background info: Our parish has been divided along the lines of folks who liked the old music that was used for Mass (90% contemporary) and what we do now (75% traditional, 25% contemporary…100% in accordance with church teaching!)… The previous director was way out of line in trying to “pull strings from afar”, but i also had a 15 year old girl’s feelings to consider. Not to mention those of her parents, and a good percentage of our church population. I decided (against my better judgement) to allow her to sing it 20 minutes BEFORE Mass started, as people were beginning to get settled in. I felt this was an acceptable compromise, but I have been second-guessing myself ever since.

suffice to say, it will not been done AT ALL next year

For all of us who have strong opinions about the music we use for Mass, please pray for your Choir Directors. They face the impossible task of trying to please everyone…and while that is NOT the goal of their Ministry, it can wear a person out over time. In cases where abuses have gone on over an extended period of time, it can take months or even years to affect positive change.

 

[Newbie2]

When holding up the song that you are defending to the standards set by both Pontiffs, it doesn’t add up. In fact, it is the kind of music that is not fit to cross the threshhold.

Hogwash. You’re reading into these documents what you want to prove your point, not unlike Protestants who read into scripture anti-Marian suppositions!

Show me a bishop’s letter or even one from a priest somewhere that says “Mary did you know” doesn’t belong in Christmass mass or some mass during Advent.

In addition, you claim that:

It was written by a Protestant who doesn’t understand the Church’s Marian doctrine and dogma because he doesn’t subscribe to it.

I assume you know this person personally? Can you name one other song he’s written without looking it up? I wouldn’t paint protestants with such a broad brush if you don’t know them personally. Understanding and subscribing to are not mutually exclusive things.

 

[CWBetts]

I assume you know this person personally? Can you name one other song he’s written without looking it up? I wouldn’t paint protestants with such a broad brush if you don’t know them personally. Understanding and subscribing to are not mutually exclusive things.

A,ot of Catholics (myself included) don’t understand the Marian doctrines well enough to adequitele defend them. When the average Protestant thinks we worship Mary,I yhink it is a fair to assumr Protestants don’t ubderstand the Narian doctrines either.

 

[MusicMan]

I agree wholeheartedly with newbie2’s assessment. Benedictgal’s opinion is that the song is unfit, and then using the directives of those Pontiffs to back her claim. The problem is that she hasn’t quoted an established set of criteria to determine the fitness of a piece to cross the threshold. The criteria are her own.

Furthermore, I have said repeatedly, the song has nothing to do with Mary or doctrines related to her. The lyricist is simply using Mary as a vehicle to teach the listener about the life and wonder of the incarnation of Christ. It’s about HIM, folks, not Mary.

 

[Lujack]

A,ot of Catholics (myself included) don’t understand the Marian doctrines well enough to adequitele defend them. When the average Protestant thinks we worship Mary,I yhink it is a fair to assumr Protestants don’t ubderstand the Narian doctrines either.

Does the average Protestant think we worship Mary, or does the average evangelical Protestant think we worship Mary? I live in the Northeast, and most Protestants I know are Lutherans, Episcopalians, or Anglicans, who don’t have any real problem with the Catholic Church. Evangelical Protestants (especially Southern ones) are a different matter, though.

 

[DiZent]

I’ve heard the song by 2 different Catholic artists. Angelina changed the words of the incorrect line to: …this Child that you’ve delivered had once delivered you. The other version done by Jesse Manibusan did not change the line, but the words Mary, Santa Maria, Madre de Dios, ruega, regua por nosotros are sung in the background (I’m sure there is a musical term for this - 2 songs sang together - not exactly a duet but something like that). Anyway, both of these versions are beautiful. Our choir sang it during the music program before Midnight Mass.

 

[Writer]

Hello Everyone,

It has been almost a day now since the recent Sunday Mass, and I still cannot get my ears feeling clean after hearing what I was subjected to.

Our new music director, who apparently believes that “Sing A New Church” is the international anthem of the Catholic Church, this time put us through ----

Wait for it! -------

“Mary Did You Know?”

(Shudder!)

Now if you all will excuse me, I am going to try and wash again with holy water and then join the Society of St. Pius X

I have to admit that I kind of (gulp) like “Mary, Did You Know?” I think it makes some good points. Not entirely sure, though, that’s it is appropriate for Mass, but I personally would not have objected.

I recently started a thread concerning “Sing a New Church.” I’d suggest that is really the dangerous hymn. After exchanging communications with our Archbishop, I’m looking to write an article concerning the hymn and the errors it preaches. I’ve contacted a Catholic magazine as to whether they have any interest in this subject, and I’m still waiting to hear back at this point.

 

[benedictgal]

I agree wholeheartedly with newbie2’s assessment. Benedictgal’s opinion is that the song is unfit, and then using the directives of those Pontiffs to back her claim. The problem is that she hasn’t quoted an established set of criteria to determine the fitness of a piece to cross the threshold. The criteria are her own.

Furthermore, I have said repeatedly, the song has nothing to do with Mary or doctrines related to her. The lyricist is simply using Mary as a vehicle to teach the listener about the life and wonder of the incarnation of Christ. It’s about HIM, folks, not Mary.

It’s rather fascinating that once people cannot find authentic, authoritative documents of the Holy See to support their aseertions, they start to hurl insults. Fascinating.

The simiple fact that this song goes against what the Church teaches regarding Marian doctrine and dogma is reason enough to not use it for any Catholic service.

Kolbelover hit the nail on the head. He is a choir director and, as from what he has written, strives to follow the Church’s directives on music 100%. His assertion, as a choir director, that this song is unfit for use in the Mass proves the point.

For a song to be included within the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, it must conform to Catholic doctrine. It must conform to the teachings of the Church. The song in question is highly suspect. One doesn’t need to personally know the composer to have a strong sense that this song is 180 degrees to the opposite of the Church’s teachings on Mary. The composer is Protestant, and, while, naturally, he is not supposed to know, let alone, understand, Marian doctrine as the Church sees it, this composition is not suitable for the Mass. The writings of both Pope St. Pius X and Servant of God Pope John Paul II validate this point, even though there are some who refuse to connect the dots because of some attachment to the song or just to make an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

[CWBetts]

In reference to my last post, I assure you I wasn’t drunk when i was trying to type that garbled mess!!

 

[Michael_Francis]

Closed pending review by Moderator.