Mary ever-virgin?

[scm]

Huiou Theou:

EXACTLY the point. IF Joseph DID have a son by Mary, that son would have the throne.

Jesus was not Joseph’s son by sexual intercourse – he was not literally Davids Son.
Jesus had only an adoptive (stepson) claim on the throne of David.

Remember Isaac and Ishmael?
Ishmael was a half-son of the marriage, because he was not son of Sarah.

Ishmael lost, because Abraham had a son by his true-wife.
Isaac was the son of BOTH Abraham and Sarah.

Just so, If there was a son by Mary and Joseph, this son would a greater claim on the throne. Especially since the throne was inherited from Joseph.

I don’t think Joseph would have risked God’s anger.

Admitedly I am jumping in to the end of this thread, but I had understood that BOTH Mary and Joseph were of the line of David. Mary through Nathan and Joseph through Solomon. So Jesus’s claim to the throne is through Mary.

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread.

 

[RyanL]

scm:

Admitedly I am jumping in to the end of this thread, but I had understood that BOTH Mary and Joseph were of the line of David. Mary through Nathan and Joseph through Solomon. So Jesus’s claim to the throne is through Mary.

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread.

Yes and no. Yes, both lineages are traced to David. No, Jesus’ claim to the throne is through Mary and Joseph. As Joseph is Jesus’ father (not biological), Jesus is legally entitled to inheritance rights through Joseph.

RyanL

 

[Zooey]

scm:

Admitedly I am jumping in to the end of this thread, but I had understood that BOTH Mary and Joseph were of the line of David. Mary through Nathan and Joseph through Solomon. So Jesus’s claim to the throne is through Mary.Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread.

It is true that Mary & Joseph were both descended from David. But Joseph was closer to the throne (because of Solomon). So, a blood son of Joseph would have a claim to the throne.
Mary’s line was also direct from David, however. Yes, Jesus’ right to the throne is through Mary, but Joseph’s family also had the claim.
Think of it like the English royals.Princess Anne’s children are in the line of succession, but they can’t inherit, because the her brothers have children who rank higher. (Not a perfect comparison, but close as I can think of in our times).

 

[timothy2]

mikeabele:

I was just shocked at how little the Bible had to say about virgin Mary, compared to how much the RCC says about it. The Douay-Rheims Bible says that she did not stay a virgin after Christ’s virgin birth:

Matt 1:24,25
24 And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25 And he knew her not till she brought forth her first born son: and he called his name Jesus.

Mary also had other children:

John 2:12
After this, he went down to Capharnaum, he and his mother and his brethren and his disciples: and they remained there not many days.

John 7:2-10
2 Now the Jews feast of tabernacles was at hand. 3 And his brethren said to, him: Pass from hence and go into Judea, that thy disciples also may see thy works which thou dost. 4 For there is no man that doth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, manifest thyself to the world. 5 For neither did his brethren believe in him. 6 Then Jesus said to them: My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7 The world cannot hate you: but me it hateth, because I give testimony of it, that the works thereof are evil, 8 Go you up to this festival day: but I go not up to this festival day, because my time is not accomplished. 9 When he had said these things, he himself stayed in Galilee. 10 But after his brethren were gone up, then he also went up to the feast, not openly, but, as it were, in secret.

Galatians 1:19
19 But other of the apostles I saw none, saving James the brother of the Lord.

Acts 1:14
14 All these were persevering with one mind in prayer with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

Matt 13:54-57
54 And coming into his own country, he taught them in their synagogues, so that they wondered and said: How came this man by this wisdom and miracles? 55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary, and his brethren James, and Joseph, and Simon, and Jude: 56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence therefore hath he all these things? 57 And they were scandalized in his regard. But Jesus said to them: A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.

The Scripture is plain, Mary was a virgin when she bore Christ, afterwards she had a normal marital relationship with her husband Joseph and had at least 6 children.

Some would say that Mary had to remain a virgin or this would defile the womb that bore Jesus, the Scripture says:

Hebrews 13:4
4 Marriage honourable in all, and the bed undefiled. For fornicators and adulterers God will judge.

Now where does the Scripture state that Mary remained a virgin? For Scripture cannot contradict itself.

This is pretty compelling evidence to support the doctrine that Mary did not remain a virgin. It seems that one would have to willingly reject the clear teaching of Scripture to think otherwise.

MARANATHA!

 

[Zooey]

timothy2:

This is pretty compelling evidence to support the doctrine that Mary did not remain a virgin. It seems that one would have to willingly reject the clear teaching of Scripture to think otherwise.MARANATHA!

On the contrary!! The evidence is very strong that she did remain a virgin!!
There is good information in the CA tract, called “Brethren of the Lord”, but, put simply, the fact is that the verses (that Mike cited) are not saying that Jesus had brothers; they are saying that He had family members, who were known to people that were speaking here.Well–no surprise! Of course He had family. But they were not blood siblings!! (They wer most likely cousins).
One of the things that we have to keep in mind, is that the ancient world did not distinguish exactly the relationships of people when speaking of relatives. “Brethren” is a generic term for male relatives.
God bless.

 

[scm]

Zooey:

It is true that Mary & Joseph were both descended from David. But Joseph was closer to the throne (because of Solomon). So, a blood son of Joseph would have a claim to the throne.
Mary’s line was also direct from David, however. Yes, Jesus’ right to the throne is through Mary, but Joseph’s family also had the claim.
Think of it like the English royals.Princess Anne’s children are in the line of succession, but they can’t inherit, because the her brothers have children who rank higher. (Not a perfect comparison, but close as I can think of in our times).

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread. And please know that I am TRYING to understand all of this, so I may be about to make an outrageous statement, forgive me.

In Jerimiah 22:30 The Lord cursed Jehoiachin, decendent of Solomon and ancestor of Joseph. Joseph may have a legal right to the throne, but the Lord said none of Jehoiachin’s decendents will sit on the throne. So how can you say that Jesus can claim the throne through Joseph, or for that matter any of Joseph’s children if he had any?
It looks to me that only through Mary does Jesus have a right to the throne.

 

[jax8686]

Heres a foot note on Jeremiah 22:30

11 [30] Childless: Jehoiachin is so considered because none of his descendants will be king. From the Book of Ezekiel, who dates his oracles according to Jehoiachin’s fictitious regnal years, it is evident that the people expected Jehoiachin to return. The above prophecy of Jeremiah was uttered to dispel this hope (Jeremiah 28:4). Of the seven sons born to Jehoiachin in exile, none became king. His grandson Zerubbabel presided for a time over the Jewish community after the return from exile, but not as king

But if you look at Jeremiah 33:17-26 you see The Lord saying something different… im not sure what to take of it, but thats where God opened my bible too… tell me if that doesnt sound like God is giving an exception to his rule maybe? or he was clarifying…? im not sure, gimme what you got.

And SCM, i get your point, and no, Jesus was not a direct succesor of Joseph, he was an adopted successor. so technically he was not a literal descendant of Joseph, but He still claimed His throne throught Josephs lineage. The curse that Jehoiachim would never have a descendant through his line does not mean it will not be claimed through it.

 

[MattG]

RyanL:

Mike,

Remember, you need to discuss politely. That includes not making blatently spurious charges. Not only did I give you more than this, I parallelled texts from Exodus, 1 Samuel, 2 Samuel, and Luke. Now I’m going to give quotes from Luke, Dueteronomy, Genesis, Ruth, Isiah, Jerimiah, and Ezekiel, as well as Jewish Midrash and Targum (which are essential for Jews), to show that Mary was the spouse of the Holy Spirit, and that our Savior is not illegitimate (which is exactly what a child born out of wedlock is), contrary to what you may believe.

RyanL

There is another prophetic passage in Ezekial and I think I have seen in a Marian Litany, “Mary, the East Gate,” which may refer to this from Ezekial.
44:1 Then he brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, facing the east; but it was closed.
44:2 He said to me: This gate is to remain closed; it is not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.

 

[Zooey]

scm:

Forgive me if this was already covered in the thread. And please know that I am TRYING to understand all of this, so I may be about to make an outrageous statement, forgive me.
In Jerimiah 22:30 The Lord cursed Jehoiachin, decendent of Solomon and ancestor of Joseph. Joseph may have a legal right to the throne, but the Lord said none of Jehoiachin’s decendents will sit on the throne. So how can you say that Jesus can claim the throne through Joseph, or for that matter any of Joseph’s children if he had any?It looks to me that only through Mary does Jesus have a right to the throne.

No, that’s OK, I’ve made the same point myself, in regard to slightly different issues. The thing is, that we think of the line of succession being neat & tidy (like the English, who I wish I never mentioned, but it was the only example I could think of!). The facts are different. There wereseveral ways that someone might come into the kingship. Joseph was closer in line than Mary; still, there was the matter of Jehoiakhim/Jeconia. But here is the neat thing: no one (no ordinary mortal,that is)could really qualify for King of Israel, not as things had occurred up to this time. The only way it was possible, & meet all the qualifications, was that it had to be Jesus. David’s family had been promised a kingdom forever, but no mere human fully qualified (or can). Only Jesus, Son of God & Son of Mary had the complete right credentials for the job.

 

[allhers]

Even if it were not in the Bible, which many have shown you over and over that it is, the Perpetual Virginity of the Blessed Mother has been proclaimed dogma by the Church that Jesus founded, and we believe all that she (and by she, I mean, the Church) teaches. They hand on faithfully all that He taught.

Also, we are the living Church, still guided by the Holy Spirit. So Mike, apparently you just want to try to disprove it and you can’t, sorry, we have been around for over 2000 years now, you’re kicking against it as St. Paul (Saul) was, remember when Jesus asked him -“why are you persecuting ME?” perhaps it is just time for you to admit you are wrong, go lick your wounds and submit, we would welcome you home with open arms. Or welcome you in, whichever.—one other thing, which I am sure was addressed on here, but it caught my eye because someone said it to me before, months ago, …You quoted this verse too Mike, I guess you were trying to tell us not to receive Jesus in Holy Communion. :tsktsk:
Jeremiah7:18—that refers to this–Queen of Heaven-the Assyro-Babylonian Ishtar, goddess of fertility, whose worship was introduced under King Manasseh, and was revived after Josiah’s death. Cakes, shaped like stars (Ishtar was identified with the planet Venus, were offered in her honor.)— This is what verse 21 says…Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Isreal: Heap your holocausts upon your sacrifices; eat up the flesh!
Plus, one last thing, read further in Jeremiah, 7:24–But they obeyed not, nor did they pay heed. They walked in the hardness of their evil hearts and turned their backs, not their faces, to me

 

[Axion]

below is the verse most often quoted by people claiming that Mary had other children.

Matthew 13.55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not **all ** his sisters with us?"

If all the people listed as Brothers and Sisters of Jesus were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children after Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! A ridiculous number. How strange that NONE of this army of children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

 

[jax8686]

How strange that NONE of this army of children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

the next oldest was 12 years younger than Jesus of course ?? (typical protestant replies :nope: )

 

[Zooey]

Axion:

below is the verse most often quoted by people claiming that Mary had other children.
Matthew 13.55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not **all **his sisters with us?"
If all the people listed as Brothers and Sisters of Jesus were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children after Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! A ridiculous number. How strange that NONE of this army of children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

Even more: If that verse is to be taken as proof Mary had other children, what about the rest of it, that calls Jesus “the carpenter’s son”…That *doesn’t *mean that Jesus was Joseph’s Son!! But, same verse, same interpretation…
And in Acts 1, they are all in the upper room, & it says, Mary the mother of Jesus was there w/ His “brethren”…“the number…about 120”. One hundred & twenty brothers??? Oy!!!..There’s a family scene for you!!!
I really think there has to be a willful act of accepting this kind of nonsense as logical. You can’t use the same words to mean 2 opposite things at the same time. (Well, yeah, you can; it just won’t make any sense!!!)

 

[TOME]

Can we claim Mary to be Ever Virgin from a scriptural basis? I say yes based on the text themselves in light of 1st Century Palestian Jewish Culture and a little interpretation from the Old Testament. First, there is the refrence of Joseph and Mary having no sexual relationship “until” she gave birth. In the bible the use of “Until” has refrence only up to that point and no infrence after that particular time can be made. Second, about Jesus’ brothers and sisters. A couple of thing. One in Aramaic, as in some African Languages of today, there is no specific words differentiatind siblings and cousins. Also, throughout the NT there is no question that Jesus is Mary’s son, however, refering to Jesus as the Carpetner’s son could be taken as a insult (remember they came from small towns where Jesus’ parantage could have been part of the town gossip - a nice way of saying there was the rumor that Joseph was not the Father) However, this and the mention of Mary with Jesus’ brothers and sisters could be a refrence that they were half siblings Joseph being the Father. This is based on the culture of the time - when Mary and Jesus’ brothers and sisters appeard to take Jesus away, this was behavior clearly against the customes of the time if they were younger siblings - it just did not happen. Older siblings, however,

 

[TOME]

forgive me if my thred is turning into a carpet) older siblings, esp. males could act in this fashion, but Mary clearly was not their biological mother. At the cross, had Mary had other children, she would have become their responsibility, not John’s.So it’s very much possible that Jesus had brothers and sisters from Joseph’s previous marriage (widowers could remarry and often did - not widows however in that culture) but this would explain Jesus’ brothers and sisters while re enforcing the truth that Mary is ever Virgin. Finally some prayerful interpretation of Ezekiel 44:1 - 3. In his vision Ezekiel is instructed that “This gate is to remain closed;not to be opened for anyone to enter by it; since the Lord, the God of Israel, has entered by it, it shall remain closed.”

 

[timothy2]

Axion:

below is the verse most often quoted by people claiming that Mary had other children.

Matthew 13.55 Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not his mother called Mary? And are not his brothers James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56 And are not **all ** his sisters with us?"

If all the people listed as Brothers and Sisters of Jesus were actually siblings, Mary would have had to have had at least SEVEN surviving children after Jesus (meaning about TWENTY babies considering infant mortality at the time)! A ridiculous number. How strange that NONE of this army of children appears or hinders Mary and Joseph from dropping everything to chase after Jesus when He is found in the temple at age 12.

Your speculation that Mary would have had 20 children to have had 7 that lived is pure speculation.

My wife and I have 5 children, 24 grand children, and 1 great grandchild… One of our daughters is expecting number ten. My father was one of 13 children. So, I hardly think of seven children as being “ridiculous”.

Preston

 

[jax8686]

Yes Timothy, it may be pure speculation, but Axion has a ponit in comparing infant mortality over 2000 years. Mary had her firstborn son in a barn… and i doubt they had hospitals with midwives and incubators, medicine, etc then… 7 out of 20 is not unreasonable