Mary for our salvation?

[E.E.N.S]

scylla:

This sort of thing is mis-understood, just in the same way St. Louis Grignion de Montfort is misunderstood in his flowery language describing Mary.

St. Louis de Montfort what?!?

(look below) - and I am a convert no less!

 

[E.E.N.S]

EA_Man:

Mary has more power than all of Hell? How can anyone justify a statement like that?

It is largely taken from Genesis 3:15.

 

[Fiat]

EA_Man:

I’ve heard this rationale before. It’s no more convincing now than then.

When you ask family or friend to pray for you, do you say “Unto your protection I fly where I fear nothing, not even the anger of Jesus who will be appeased by one petition from thee.”

I’ll bet you don’t.

But here’s where the rubber really meets the road - please could you tell me how the prayer above is devotion rather than worship?

Mary has more power than all of Hell? How can anyone justify a statement like that?

Thanks

EA_Man:

Non-catholics have a different understanding of worship than we Catholics, and that is why you have trouble seeing this prayer as one of devotion. For a protestant, to worship means to sing songs about, pray to, and have a sermon on. So, when you see Catholics singing songs about Mary, praying for Mary’s intercession, or listening to a homily on Mary, you immediately understood these actions as worship.

For Catholics, worship is best understood as sacrifice, particularly the sacrifice of the Saviour to the Heavenly Father which we find at every single mass. Mass is never offered to Mary.

It is this distinction in worship that creates most of the problems for non-Catholics.

Fiat

 

[sara888]

****Eman

You are twisting and distorting here, who ever claimed Mary has more power than Hell, ?but I wil say after the Holy Trinity, she is next in line that is how powerful she is with God and the church.

I dont need to explain devotion or worship to you, look the definition up and see the difference.

We are still going to God first, and then we ask the Mother of God and the Saints as intercessors to help us. We can love her as we love our own Mother and God wants us to love others first rather than ourselves. Of course the Holy Trinity first and foremost again, to reiterate.****

Its becoming a circular debate, I have shown you twice- reason and the difference between worship and devotion.

Sara

 

[sara888]

**BTW, I did not say it but yes I profess and believe Mary has power over Satan and or hell. God has given her this gift or grace.

Again God is first and foremost,

Sorry but its all true,

Sara**

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

…Mary has more power than all of Hell? How can anyone justify a statement like that?..

What’s so difficult about this statement? Any Christian has more power than all of Hell. We have Jesus! Mary especially so.

 

[MonicaC]

EA_Man:

But here’s where the rubber really meets the road - please could you tell me how the prayer above is devotion rather than worship?

To me this prayer is very devotional. We have to remember that Mary is all about Jesus. Nothing she does is for herself. Even if someone would start in your words worship her alone she would not go for it, you see She can only see her son Our Lord. And Jesus knows this and he loves her for it, so this is why he will hear her prayers for us, just as he would hear any saints prayers for us. It is just that Our Lady is the most reconizible and there for more prayed to. I say pray as in the one most people will ask for help. You see we all need help, I feel like it is a great sin that one thinks that they can do everything on their own. It is prideful to think that you don’t need the intercesion of the saints for your pleas for forgiveness.

Mary has more power than all of Hell? How can anyone justify a statement like that?

Again this is your own pridefulness in thinking that you can see in my heart and those others who do ask for help, and just assume that we are putting someone before Our Lord.

I really hope that you can try to understand were we are coming from. And I will be praying for you.

 

[EA_Man]

Eman

You are twisting and distorting here, who ever claimed Mary has more power than Hell, ?
Sara

because thou (Mary) art more powerful than all hell together

How is that a distortion?

The question is simple: How does anyone claim that Mary is more powerful than all hell together?

or following up on Joe’s point; that any Christian is more powerful than all hell together?

Thanks

 

[EA_Man]

MonicaC:

To me this prayer is very devotional. We have to remember that Mary is all about Jesus. Nothing she does is for herself. Even if someone would start in your words worship her alone she would not go for it, you see She can only see her son Our Lord. And Jesus knows this and he loves her for it, so this is why he will hear her prayers for us, just as he would hear any saints prayers for us. It is just that Our Lady is the most reconizible and there for more prayed to. I say pray as in the one most people will ask for help. You see we all need help, I feel like it is a great sin that one thinks that they can do everything on their own. It is prideful to think that you don’t need the intercesion of the saints for your pleas for forgiveness.

Again this is your own pridefulness in thinking that you can see in my heart and those others who do ask for help, and just assume that we are putting someone before Our Lord.

I really hope that you can try to understand were we are coming from. And I will be praying for you.

No Monica, I’m not assuming anything about YOU.

The question I have is with the words of the prayer: How does anyone claim that Mary has more power than all of hell? Where is the Scriptural evidence for such a claim?

Peace

 

[sara888]

EMAN

**Its not a distortion, I thought you claimed I made that statement in my first post or reply to you. That is what I meant by you are distorting my post’s. So no I did not originally claim that statement, but I 100 percent agree with it.

In your bible who hold the keys to Hell.?

God or his appointed apostle Peter.??

Just curious.

Sara**

 

[MonicaC]

EA_Man:

No Monica, I’m not assuming anything about YOU.

The question I have is with the words of the prayer: How does anyone claim that Mary has more power than all of hell? Where is the Scriptural evidence for such a claim?

Peace

Well, if that is the case. Mary is part of the spirital body of Christ, so that being said don’t you think that No one or thing in hell can have more power than her, I mean since she is part of Christ.

 

[EA_Man]

Joseph Bilodeau:

What’s so difficult about this statement? Any Christian has more power than all of Hell. We have Jesus! Mary especially so.

This is an interesting claim that I cannot let go unanswered.

One of the major claims of Catholic doctrine is the claim that Matthew 16; where Jesus says that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His church, points to the Magesterium and the Papacy.

But here you state that ANY Christian is already so equipped - being stronger than hell.

If that is true, then what need does any Christian have of the Magesterium since as you indicate we’re already stronger than all of hell?

Peace

 

[EA_Man]

sara888:

EMAN

**Its not a distortion, I thought you claimed I made that statement in my first post or reply to you. That is what I meant by you are distorting my post’s. So no I did not originally claim that statement, but I 100 percent agree with it. **

In your bible who hold the keys to Hell.?

God or his appointed apostle Peter.??

Just curious.

Sara

Jesus Christ holds the Keys to Death and Hades.
Revelation 1:18

Peace

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

…or following up on Joe’s point; that any Christian is more powerful than all hell together?..

What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us. What will separate us from the love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? As it is written: “For your sake we are being slain all the day; we are looked upon as sheep to be slaughtered.” No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, 10 nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

On a personal note, as we do not know each other, I would consider it a great courtesy if you would not use a diminitive form of my name. Thank you.

 

[EA_Man]

MonicaC:

Well, if that is the case. Mary is part of the spirital body of Christ, so that being said don’t you think that No one or thing in hell can have more power than her, I mean since she is part of Christ.

I see no Scriptural warrant for this claim.

Perhaps if you provided one I would be convinced.

Prove all things; hold fast to what is good. 1 Thessalonians 5:21

Peace

 

[sara888]

. EMAN

**
.Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. 1John 4:4**

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

In a race, all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Sara

 

[EA_Man]

Joseph Bilodeau:

On a personal note, as we do not know each other, I would consider it a great courtesy if you would not use a diminitive form of my name. Thank you.

My apologies, I’ll try to be more couteous.

On the verses that you provided;

They refer to the security of our relationship with Jesus Christ.
I would agree that hell cannot separate us from the love of Christ, however that does confer to us power over hell. That power belongs to Christ alone.

Peace

 

[Sherlock]

EA_Man:

How am I putting words into someone’s mouth?

I prefaced my remark with an “IF”.

That indicates a conditional construction.

It is entirely possible, even probable that Sara is not in the place that I described.

I did not make the statement that Sara was giving Mary preeminence over Jesus, I said “IF”.

Now you may think that that lacks clarity, but it does not lack in charity; as does a broadbrush categorization of “Protestant thinking”.

Peace

I do see a lack of charity. Sara’s post that you responded to did not indicate that she was giving Mary preeminence over Jesus, but you responded as if she had. To then dodge out of that by pointing to the word “if” is disingenuous—am I to believe that you were merely reminding her of the bloody obvious, just out of the blue, and independent of her post?

As for my “broadbrush categorization”: hey, I used to be a Protestant, and so I am simply giving you the results of my observations. And yes, in my experience there is a tendency to see many theological matters from an “either/or” mindset. If you want to argue that, start another thread and I’d be happy to expand on my observations. Since I am hardly the first Catholic to note this tendency, I’m wondering on what basis you are dismissing this as a “broadbrush” categorization.

 

[EA_Man]

sara888:

. EMAN

.Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world. 1John 4:4

Luke 10:19
Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

In a race, all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

Sara

All great verses, but none of them support the contention that Mary has power over hell. Only Christ has conquered hell. I see no evidence that Christ has conferred this authority on anyone else.

Peace

 

[EA_Man]

Sherlock:

I do see a lack of charity. Sara’s post that you responded to did not indicate that she was giving Mary preeminence over Jesus, but you responded as if she had. To then dodge out of that by pointing to the word “if” is disingenuous—am I to believe that you were merely reminding her of the bloody obvious, just out of the blue, and independent of her post?

As for my “broadbrush categorization”: hey, I used to be a Protestant, and so I am simply giving you the results of my observations. And yes, in my experience there is a tendency to see many theological matters from an “either/or” mindset. If you want to argue that, start another thread and I’d be happy to expand on my observations. Since I am hardly the first Catholic to note this tendency, I’m wondering on what basis you are dismissing this as a “broadbrush” categorization.

So either I’m thinking like a Protestant or I’m thinking like a Catholic?

Hmmm, an interesting observation; I’ll have to think about the irony of that for awhile.

Peace