Mary for our salvation?

[sara888]

**Its just logic, you are overlooking, the verse’s in the bible that tell you man has power over Satan, so why would it not be posssible the Mother of God also have this power.? Eman think about it.

If only one Catholic were left in the world ,he would be the universal church.

Sara**

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

EA_Man:

This is an interesting claim that I cannot let go unanswered.

One of the major claims of Catholic doctrine is the claim that Matthew 16; where Jesus says that the Gates of Hell shall not prevail against His church, points to the Magesterium and the Papacy.

But here you state that ANY Christian is already so equipped - being stronger than hell.

If that is true, then what need does any Christian have of the Magesterium since as you indicate we’re already stronger than all of hell?

Peace

See post 54, above.

Any Christian does indeed have the potential for more power than Hell. This can be expressed mathematically in the form:

God > Hell

The point being that all real power comes from God and Hell is a state of separation from God. Oh, certainly, Hell and its denizens have some natural powers based on the natures in which God created them, but this is nothing (really, mathematically nothing) compared to the power of the Body of Christ, which is the Church.

Which is also why Christians need the Magisterium, the Papacy, the Sacraments, the Communion of Saints and every other treasure and weapon with which Jesus has enriched and armed His Church. For a Christian to decline to conform to the Church with regard to these is to separate himself to some extent from the Body of Christ. To a much smaller degree than the Sepatation that is Hell, to be sure, but just as to choose Hell is to reject the power of the Body of Christ, so to reject the Magisterium, the Papacy, the Sacraments, etc., is to reject a significant part of the power of the Body of Christ to which any Christian should have access.

 

[scylla]

Maybe I should have been more clear E.E.N.S.,
I meant that St. Louis Grignion de Montfort is sometimes mis-understood by others in what he is saying, not St. Louis Grignion de Montfort misunderstanding Mary.

God Bless
Scylla

 

[blackfish152]

**

Didn’t Moses do the same thing [mediate for forgiveness of sins, post # 25] when God wanted to punish the people for there lack of faith, when he had to remind God that he made a promise to them that they will see the promise land.

---

Moses is a type for Christ, not Mary. Moses is the Head of Israel so to speak, as Christ is the head of Body, the Church, and he was able to be the mediator to the Lord, Exodus 34:9, “Pardon our iniquity and our sin, and take us for your inheritance.” This prefigures Christ Role (not Mary), as mediator for a sinful people,

 

[blackfish152]

**

The nineteenth century was a much more flowery age than ours in the area of prose,(post # 15)

**

---

This I would accept. However I feel that prayer must have a high degree of theological precision

It fosters a misconception of the person of our sole mediator-Jesus Christ. And this post sums that up.
**

Mary, being a mere mortal, is more approachable than the eternal, unfathomable God, even though he did come to us as a Man.

**

** **There is the catch, he **came as man. **So he could be our “sole mediator”. As scripture says, there is one mediator between God and Humankind, Christ Jesus, himself Human. (1Tim2:5) We must approach him for our salvation-him alone, there is “salvation in no other name”

Again I think this post was very wise.

**

Humility and meekness should never be twisted so…we’re afraid to approach Him. Scripture says “boldly” approach the throne of Grace…in confidence

** that Jesus is not condemning, and understanding. Post # 19)

Mary cannot mediate in the sense that Christ can. She can however approach God on our behalf with our prayers (which she makes her own), in her own most excellent way as Queen of Heaven, and theotokos. However I cannot believe that she can obtain the “pardon of my sins.”

I think this is a theological distortion by some loved up writer. (No disrespect to Our Blessed Mother, or the writer) She may be able to obtain Mercy for us, from Jesus, in the sense that she could plead with him to give us some more grace for us to be converted from our hardness of heart, , but she cannot mediate the forgiveness of sins themselves.

 

[DavidB]

Dan-Man916:

That is because i think you have a fundamental difference in the understanding of the Body of Christ, Communion of Saints, Nutpial mystery of Christ and the Church, and Theosis, whereby we participate in Christ’s divine nature.

I “understand” your perspective, I just don’t accept it or perhaps apply it to the degree you do. That’ll become more clear in my next response.

Dan-Man916:

Then, with all due respect, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Sacrament of Marriage and its relation to the inner life of the Trinity. I believe Ephesians 5 forms the basis for it. What we to do others, we do to Jesus. How we relate to others directly affects our relationship to Jesus. It is through the Body of Christ that we participate in relationship to Christ. I recommend John Paul II’s work, Theology of the Body. It explains it in full detail. (or at least read the highlights, it’s very long).

I understand that what we do for the least of our brothers, we’ve done it unto Christ, and I agree with everything you’ve just said, but my point was that our relationships with each other do not substitute for having a direct and active relationship with Jesus Himself. We can not avoid Jesus and ask others to approach Him for us. That’s a travesty of His human life and eternal sacrifice. And that’s what that prayer is saying.

*I don’t ask my wife to ask Jesus for forgiveness for me. I ask Him myself. *
That’s unfortunate. I pray for my wife and daughter’s sanctification and salvation everyday. That necissarily involves forgiveness of sins and Hope of mercy in Christ’s promises to us.

But your comment has nothing to do with my point. I also pray for my wife and children daily, that they would mature in Christ and grow into the fullness of Christ’s nature. And ‘yes’, if I’ve sinned against them I directly ask them for forgiveness. And I pray that God would forgive their sins and draw them to repentance when they have sinned. But I can’t ask my wife to ask Jesus for me to forgive me of my sins, I need to do that myself.

Dan-Man916:

That’s exactly what the meaning of this petition to Mary is. If you’ve never asked someone to pray for you, then you are clearly missing a biblical idea.

But that’s NOT what this prayer is about at all. It’s not asking Mary to pray for you. It’s asking Mary to obtain grace for you, something only Jesus can do.

Dan-Man916:

You don’t know what i fully appreciate, so don’t presume based on your own misunderstandings of Catholic theology. As a former evangelical protestant, I know full well about this kind of sanctimonious attitude of presuming other’s appreciation of the salvation offered in Christ alone.

Your response to me is loaded with the same presumptions claiming I don’t understand things about your spirituality For instace, when you said “Sorry if you couldn’t understand what I was saying. However, without the Catholic udnerstanding of the theological concepts I discussed, I can see why you misunderstand everything I have said.” So I guess we’re both guilty on that count.

As a former Catholic, I was basing my statement on the vast majority of Catholics I know and still know, since most of my family are faithful Catholics. Most Catholics focus their relationship with Christ through the Church and the sacraments. In order to spend time in His Presence, their first thought is to go to a Church to sit before the Eucharist. This is valid, I’m not criticizing it. But they don’t fully appreciate that God dwells within them and that they can enjoy the fullness of His Presence in private worship and prayer anywhere/anytime.

I spent 20 years as a faithful Catholic followed by 20 years as a faithful Pentecostal (Assemblies of God), so I understand and appreciate the theological focus of both paradigms. Currently, I attend a “catholic” church via the Charismatic Episcopal Church (CEC) which embraces both paradigms fully, the Lord as experienced via the Church and Sacraments (including the Eucharist) and the Spirit-Filled life of charismatic worship and prayer.

David

 

[Rebecca_New]

DavidB:

The fact that this forum hasn’t universally denounced a prayer like that is a stark reminder of why I can’t conceive of ever returning to the Catholic Church. No amount of “deeper understanding” of beliefs or practices can explain away just how wrong it is.

David

Do the possible let God do the impossible.

 

[Fiat]

But that’s NOT what this prayer is about at all. It’s not asking Mary to pray for you. It’s asking Mary to obtain grace for you, something only Jesus can do.

DavidB:

You’ve misquoted the prayer.

Fiat

 

[Fiat]

I understand that what we do for the least of our brothers, we’ve done it unto Christ, and I agree with everything you’ve just said, but my point was that our relationships with each other do not substitute for having a direct and active relationship with Jesus Himself. We can not avoid Jesus and ask others to approach Him for us. That’s a travesty of His human life and eternal sacrifice. And that’s what that prayer is saying.

DavidB:
Where has the Church ever indicated that Mary is a substitute for Christ?

Fiat

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

Your previous quote forcefully indicates that Christ dwells in us. You indicate in this post that we are clothed with Christ. So in spite of the fact that Christ is in us and on us, you still somehow believe that Christ can never truly transform us, making us “partakers of the divine nature”?! Why are you not equally troubled by your own theology as you are by the beautiful prayer of intercession to Our Lady?

Fiat

I don’t have trouble believing that we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ, that’s the mission of our life here. I remain very troubled at a prayer that says we are too afraid to approach an angry, condemning Jesus who has to be appeased by His mother. And I know that we can’t be transformed into Christ’s image apart from being in His Presence to allow His Glory to perform the work of transformation, something this prayer precludes.

David

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

DavidB:
Where has the Church ever indicated that Mary is a substitute for Christ?

Fiat

In that prayer, it asks Mary to approach and appease Jesus for us because we’re too afraid to approach Him ourselves.

David

 

[Fiat]

There is the catch, he **came as man. **So he could be our “sole mediator”. As scripture says, there is one mediator between God and Humankind, Christ Jesus, himself Human. (1Tim2:5) We must approach him for our salvation-him alone, there is “salvation in no other name”

Christ IS our sole mediator, and as such, it is up to Him to determine how this mediation is to take place. It seems that Christ invites each of us into that mediation, particularly when scripture commands us to intercede for one another. My intercession or the intercession of Our Lady does not trespass on Christ’s sole mediation.

Fiat

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

In that prayer, it asks Mary to approach and appease Jesus for us because we’re too afraid to approach Him ourselves.

David

Uuuh…So…where again does the Church (or even that prayer) indicate that Mary is a substitute for Christ?

Fiat

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

DavidB:

You’ve misquoted the prayer.

Fiat

It says “I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.”

Nope, I think I got the prayer down pretty well.

David

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

I don’t have trouble believing that we are being transformed into the likeness of Christ, that’s the mission of our life here. I remain very troubled at a prayer that says we are too afraid to approach an angry, condemning Jesus who has to be appeased by His mother. And I know that we can’t be transformed into Christ’s image apart from being in His Presence to allow His Glory to perform the work of transformation, something this prayer precludes.

David

So are you redefining your view of “atonement” based on your recent post?

Fiat

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

It says “I fear nothing; not from my sins, because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased.”

Nope, I think I got the prayer down pretty well.

David

DavidB:

With respect, I don’t think you do. You’re earlier post specifically uses the word “grace” in reference to Mary having obtained it for us. I don’t see that language used in the prayer.

Fiat

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

So are you redefining your view of “atonement” based on your recent post?

Fiat

No. I’m not revising anything I said. Though I need to remind myself of why I said I’d ignore your posts. Not meaning to be insulting, but you have a history of misunderstanding or mistating other people’s positions forcing others to constantly clarify and repeat things to help you to understand. It’s one thing if I thought you were incapable of understanding, but I suspect your just being contrary or perhaps in too big of a hurry to take the time to think about what someone is saying before jumping to your own conclusions and then responding. Either way, I’ll resume my previous committment. Have a good day.

David

 

[DavidB]

Fiat:

DavidB:

With respect, I don’t think you do. You’re earlier post specifically uses the word “grace” in reference to Mary having obtained it for us. I don’t see that language used in the prayer.

Fiat

You don’t see that “obtaining a pardon for sins” IS grace? See why I need to stop responding?

 

[Fiat]

DavidB:

You don’t see that “obtaining a pardon for sins” IS grace? See why I need to stop responding?

Obtaining pardon through her request, not “grace” through a crucifixion.

Fiat

 

[Superstar905]

Fiat:

Obtaining pardon through her request, not “grace” through a crucifixion.

Fiat

David, I don’t think Fiat is pretending to be anything other than helpful. This is the point she is driving home, and sometimes its better to break down what you are saying, what the prayer is saying, and seeing if its compatible. This point of hers, that she is obtaining Pardon, is that the pardoning comes from Christ. It is quite relevant, and I think that this prayer is made too much of. If its things like this stopping you from coming back into the Catholic Church, then you have a lot more issues to work out (if thats even your desire).

I think in any faith you can find things that would make you shake you head. Thats why I think that this forum is great. Put together a few great and faithful minds, and work through things. I can see how this prayer is misunderstood, but when understood correctly, there really is no problem. I personally would not pray it because I don’t have a special devotion to our blessed mother, and I personally feel that it gives the wrong message on the surface, even though I fully understand the meaning behind it. Also, I think a previous poster put it best, that especially during the time it was written, it was in a flowery age where polemics and prayer were almost like love letters, and only meant to drive home a point, not to be taken literaly.

Hope this helps Dave. You don’t have to agree, but hopefully you understand a little better, and that the prayer, if misleading to you, is not blasphemous as you may have thought.