Mary for our salvation?

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

blackfish152:

…I feel that prayer must have a high degree of theological precision

It fosters a misconception of the person of our sole mediator-Jesus Christ…

A misconception on whose part, please?

God? Surely not. Even I can understand the intentions of those who use hyperbolic expressions of love for Mary and other saints in their prayers, and I will not entertain for one moment the idea that God may be more stupid than me.

The person praying? It has already been explained that Catholics and other Christians who use prayer styles to which some participants in this thread object do indeed know, understand, and give full assent of intellect, will and heart to the Truth that God is God, that to God and God alone is due our highest love, honor and worship. But we also immitate God and love and honor those persons that God loves and honors, most especially His mother. Even though we know that we couldn’t possibly give these persons greater love and honor than God gives them Himself, even if we wanted to, we make our best effort to love and honor them with the hope that by following God’s own example we may please Him. We offer our love and honor to these persons whom God loves and honors with the intention, understanding and purpose, both explicit and implicit, that this love and honor is subordinate and inferior to our love for God, even though we may express this love and honor in the highest poetic and literary forms that God has given us the capacity to employ, all to His greater glory.

Where is the misconception, please?

Third party bystanders overhearing the prayer? Possibly, which is why I agree that some prayer styles may not be the best choices to use in mixed groups where some participants may not be used to these prayer styles. But it works both ways, and persons who do use these highly personal, emotional prayer styles with great benefit might be turned off by prayer styles that might seem to say “I love The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, but I categorically refuse to love, honor, or even be polite in any degree to Christ’s mother or other persons who God loves and honors.”

Naturally, this is almost certainly not the intention of persons who prefer these other prayer styles, and they would rightly object to having their prayer intentions mischaracterized in this manner. I would hope, then, that in considering this turning of the tables, those of us, myself included, whose prayer preferences tend toward the theologically precise will not rashly judge those whose prayer preferences tend toward the dramatic, the passionate and the romantic. (and before I get any comments on this choice of words, I mean these in the emotional/literary sense, not the sexual sense.)

 

[Mickey]

Ahh yes! The devotional prayers of “Our Lady of Perpetual Help”–so beautiful!

All Catholics here can talk and talk and talk and explain until the cows come home, but you will not be able to show a sola Scripturist protestant the Catholic perspective on this. Remember, they do not accept Sacred Tradition. Also their Scriptural interpretations on many things can be quite contrary to ours. We are not going change their minds–only grace can do that. Ask Our Blessed Mother to pray for them.

Blessings to you all,
Mickey

P.S.-- Excellent post from Dan-Man916 (#27). This is a superb explaination!

 

[E.E.N.S]

scylla:

Maybe I should have been more clear E.E.N.S.,
I meant that St. Louis Grignion de Montfort is sometimes mis-understood by others in what he is saying, not St. Louis Grignion de Montfort misunderstanding Mary.

God Bless
Scylla

No, I knew what you meant, hence all the “winks.”

 

[E.E.N.S]

Dan-Man916:

David,

*1. "*In thy hands I place my eternal salvation, and to thee do I entrust my soul . . . "
*We don’t need to go any further in rejecting this as blasphemy. *

Why? Where you see blasphemy, Catholicism sees a great cloud of witnesses that follows the lamb wherever He goes (Rev 14:4). This Body of Christ (1Cor 12:27) are partakers in the divine nature (2Pet 1:3-4) so that as His Body we all intimately share in the eternal sacrifice offered once and for all from Christ to the Father (Heb 10:12-14) by uniting our own sufferings and sacrifices to Christ’s unique Sacrifice (Col 1:24).

As the Body of Christ, we share in Christ’s role as unique Mediator and Redeemer. We don’t take His place. We share in it because we are mystical members of His Body.

This is what it means to be born again in Christ (John3:5). Since Mary participates in God’s plan of salvation in a unique way, as the Mother of God, she is uniquely able to aid us in our petition to Christ, for Jesus never denies a request from His Mother that is pleasing to the Father; that request being mercy and the salvation of souls.

*2. because thou wilt obtain for me the pardon of them; *
**Mary, as any saint, is united to Christ. As we know, the prayer of the righteous is powerful and effective (Jas 5:16). Who can be more righteous than those who have already washed their robes pure white in the blood of the lamb. The saved in heaven are righteous in Christ. To be “In Christ” means to share in His divine nature and to have one’s will and desire in perfect accord with the will and desire of Jesus. Therefore, for Mary to desire to bring salvation to us must mean, by extension, that Christ desires to grant mercy. You cannot separate Christ from His Body, the Church.

*3. nor from the devils, because thou art more powerful than all hell together; *
As we share in Christ, the Saints in Heaven are all more powerful than any demon or satan. Mary especially so, since she acted in a singular unique way in God’s plan of salvation by saying Yes to the Angel Gabriel to be the Mother of God.

*4. nor even from Jesus, my Judge Himself, because by one prayer from thee, he will be appeased. *
Again, those in Heaven will share the will of Christ because we participate in His divine nature, so we will cooperate with His divine will, which is to give mercy and salvation to souls.

This prayer insults the very intimacy Jesus earned and continues to seek with us .

There is nothing more intimate than the mystical union of the Bride and the Bridegroom. We also see the nuptial mystery of the Bride of Christ, the Church, to the bridegroom, Christ. This mystery of the Church, being both His Body and His bride, are signs that point to a greater reality. There is nothing more intimate than the nuptial mystery. The Communion of Saints share in that nuptial mystery because they already share in the great banquet in heaven. By uniting ourselves to Christ through Mary, we avail ourselves to the power of the Church victorious in heaven. Those who are united to the life of the Trinity. What could me more intimate then entering into this nuptial mystery through the Saints who have gone before us, especially his Mother, who in a special way, shows the great redemptive power of Christ by her perfect obedience.

The difference here being that the theology of the Communion of Saints and Theosis allows the Saints to share in the redemptive work of Christ.

 

[Sherlock]

EA_Man:

So either I’m thinking like a Protestant or I’m thinking like a Catholic?

Hmmm, an interesting observation; I’ll have to think about the irony of that for awhile.

Peace

Very cute. Think away…But based on my observations from both “camps”, much of Protestant miconceptions and objections to Catholicism do stem from a tendency to take a narrow, either/or perspective on some issues: it has to be either faith or works; not both/and. It has to be only Jesus 'n Me; it can’t include the communion of saints. One can’t both honor Mary and worship God…and so on. I am speaking of some theological issues; you are merely trying to find irony in a position that I never made (that ALL Protestants think a certain way while ALL Catholics think another in ALL categories), while I am simply noting general tendencies (surely that is to be expected; certain theologies will produce certain tendencies in one’s perspective) based on my observations.

 

[Sherlock]

Joseph Bilodeau:

A misconception on whose part, please?

God? Surely not. Even I can understand the intentions of those who use hyperbolic expressions of love for Mary and other saints in their prayers, and I will not entertain for one moment the idea that God may be more stupid than me.

The person praying? It has already been explained that Catholics and other Christians who use prayer styles to which some participants in this thread object do indeed know, understand, and give full assent of intellect, will and heart to the Truth that God is God, that to God and God alone is due our highest love, honor and worship. But we also immitate God and love and honor those persons that God loves and honors, most especially His mother. Even though we know that we couldn’t possibly give these persons greater love and honor than God gives them Himself, even if we wanted to, we make our best effort to love and honor them with the hope that by following God’s own example we may please Him. We offer our love and honor to these persons whom God loves and honors with the intention, understanding and purpose, both explicit and implicit, that this love and honor is subordinate and inferior to our love for God, even though we may express this love and honor in the highest poetic and literary forms that God has given us the capacity to employ, all to His greater glory.

Where is the misconception, please?

Third party bystanders overhearing the prayer? Possibly, which is why I agree that some prayer styles may not be the best choices to use in mixed groups where some participants may not be used to these prayer styles. But it works both ways, and persons who do use these highly personal, emotional prayer styles with great benefit might be turned off by prayer styles that might seem to say “I love The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost, but I categorically refuse to love, honor, or even be polite in any degree to Christ’s mother or other persons who God loves and honors.”

Naturally, this is almost certainly not the intention of persons who prefer these other prayer styles, and they would rightly object to having their prayer intentions mischaracterized in this manner. I would hope, then, that in considering this turning of the tables, those of us, myself included, whose prayer preferences tend toward the theologically precise will not rashly judge those whose prayer preferences tend toward the dramatic, the passionate and the romantic. (and before I get any comments on this choice of words, I mean these in the emotional/literary sense, not the sexual sense.)

Well put!

 

[blackfish152]

A misconception on whose part, please?

I believe the quote I gave, reasonably backs up my point,
Quote:
Mary, being a mere mortal, is more approachable than the eternal, unfathomable God, even though he did come to us as a Man.

Jesus-the God man is our sole mediator, Mary His most august Mother, is not some kind of person who can mediate the forgiveness of our sins. Such a Thing I find theologically repulsive. She is in all certainty able to obtain the grace for us, who seek her intercession, which will prompt us to convert back to Christ. That is why I felt there is a terrible misconception of the role of mediators and so on here. With Moses being compared to Mary, if moses can mediate why not mary, But Moses was a Christ Type not a Mary type.

God? Surely not.

He is Omnicient and He knows the hearts of the pray-ers so, he can discern what they meant 100%.

Even I

can understand the intentions of those who use hyperbolic expressions of love for Mary and other saints in their prayers, and I will not entertain for one moment the idea that God may be more stupid than me.

You are trying to make a mock of my point. You do well and good if you understand their motives, as you claim.

The prayers of this poetic nature for personal use, if the person is aware of the theology behind it, there cant really be a problem. save from the fact when prayers cross theological lines, then thats when the beauty, love, ends. To effectively say that Mary saves us from the wrath of Christ, may be overstepping such a theological line. To my mind it portrays Christ as something other than a merciful God, and almost afronts his Passion, to prove the point that Mary is an effective mediator. Surely the poetic ingenuity could have been directled in a more effective manner at expressing the theology behind this statement.

Where is the misconception, please?

I hope I have shown that people saying the prayer can get the wrong idea, as above.
Outsiders can most certainly get the wrong idea-exemplified by some of the Protestant posts.
But at least God knows what they Mean!

God bless.

m.
*

 

[blackfish152]

Some more similar discussion, more for the fundamentalists among you!

ewtn.com/vexperts/showmessage.asp?Pgnu=1&Pg=Forum12&recnu=5&number=445399

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

blackfish152:

…You are trying to make a mock of my point…

No, I was emphasizing my point.

blackfish152:

…I hope I have shown that people saying the prayer can get the wrong idea, as above…

That depends on who you mean by “people”. Persons with a deficient understanding of Catholicism might misunderstand, to be sure, just as persons with a deficient understanding of Christianity in general might have wrong ideas about the prayer methods practiced by other Christians as well. Does this mean that all Christians should abandon prayer styles likely to be misunderstood by insufficiently educated non-Christians?

But well catechized Catholics and other Christians who use these prayer styles won’t be misled by them because they already know what their prayer intentions are and what these figures of speech mean before they say a single word addressing God or asking for a saint’s intercession in this manner.

blackfish152:

…Outsiders can most certainly get the wrong idea-exemplified by some of the Protestant posts…

Agreed, which is why I suggested that these (and some other) prayer styles might not be well suited for mixed groups containing persons not accustomed to these prayer styles. This does not mean that individuals or groups sufficiently catechized to understand these styles may not use them to good efect.

 

[DavidB]

Doesn’t it bother you that this prayer characterizes Jesus as One who has to be “appeased”? Meaning that Mary needs to calm Jesus down, soothe his anger, pacify his antagonism in order for Mary to obtain from Him forgiveness for your sins? Cause that’s exactly what it’s saying! That’s the reason for my strong and repeated objections here. It portrays an incorrect picture of Jesus.

It also contradicts scripture . . . read 1 John 3:1 “My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[the sins of the whole world.”

You see, scripture tells us that Jesus alone is waiting to speak to the Father in our defense, not Mary. This prayer your supporting lies about Jesus needing to be appeased, when He IS the appeaser!! This prayer is attempting to put Mary in place of Jesus - which is wrong. Jesus is faithful and loving and approachable, contrary to this prayer’s portrayal of Him - 1 John 1:9 “**If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”

If holding my beliefs makes me a “fundamentalist” in your view, then I wear the label proudly. For indeed I am quite incapable of accepting this so-called theology which allows you to rationalize replacing Jesus with Mary and then feeling superior for it.

David

 

[blackfish152]

Does this mean that all Christians should abandon prayer styles likely to be misunderstood by insufficiently educated non-Christians?

Never, as long as the prayer is used in the context of a correct theological understanding of the subject matter of the prayer. You are well catechized, as am I, and I know the context that this prayer is said in. My problem is not with hyperbole per se, but when it descends into theologically incorrect principles then I have to say, hold on a minute here.

But well catechized Catholics and other Christians who use these prayer styles won’t be misled by them because they already know what their prayer intentions are and what these figures of speech mean before they say a single word addressing God or asking for a saint’s intercession in this manner.

Are you saying then, that the hyperbole is not literal, and the prayer is simply exagerated to make a point, but the people who say the prayer, know the catechism, and they dont really mean what the literal meaning of the prayer is that they are saying., But that they are simply pouring out their love and affection for Our Lady?

This does not mean that individuals or groups sufficiently catechized to understand these styles may not use them to good efect.

Does that even hold true if the hyperbole itself seems to strech the boundary of what is theologically permissible?

As a faithful Catholic, (who prayed at a mass of our lady of perpetual Help 30 minutes ago) I want to second the question of DavidB

**

Doesn’t it bother you that this prayer characterizes Jesus as One who has to be “appeased”?

**

---

Seeking the Intercession of the Theotokos on this matter.

M.

 

[blackfish152]

Perhaps the Theotokos has guided me.

SUPREMI APOSTOLATUS OFFICIO
ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON
DEVOTION OF THE ROSARY

Now that the anniversary, therefore, of manifold and exceedingly great favours obtained by a Christian people through the devotion of the Rosary is at hand, We desire that that same devotion should be offered by the whole Catholic world with the greatest earnestness to the Blessed Virgin, that by her intercession her Divine Son may be appeased and softened in the evils which afflict us. And therefore We determined, Venerable Brethren, to despatch to you these letters in order that, informed of Our designs, your authority and zeal might excite the piety of your people to conform themselves to them.

Rome has spoken, the case is closed ! ?

 

[Joseph_Bilodeau]

DavidB:

Doesn’t it bother you that this prayer characterizes Jesus as One who has to be “appeased”? Meaning that Mary needs to calm Jesus down, soothe his anger, pacify his antagonism in order for Mary to obtain from Him forgiveness for your sins? Cause that’s exactly what it’s saying! That’s the reason for my strong and repeated objections here. It portrays an incorrect picture of Jesus…

No, it doesn’t bother me because that’s not what it says at all. You are not the only one who needs to repeat things, apparently. Once again:

This is an example of hyperbolic language, common in love poetry and similar literary genres. It is not a characterization of Jesus at all. It is a declaration of love and confidence in our Blessed Mother.

DavidB:

…If holding my beliefs makes me a “fundamentalist” in your view, then I wear the label proudly. For indeed I am quite incapable of accepting this so-called theology which allows you to rationalize replacing Jesus with Mary and then feeling superior for it. David

Once again:

We do not replace Jesus with Mary.

Your incapability of understanding this, whether or not you may agree with this yourself, is sad. If this makes you feel proud, though, then I am happy for you.

 

[Gene_C]

To my fellow Catholics,

We know that there is error taught and practiced in our Church. (Not from the Magisterium, of course.) There are liberal and conservative theological camps. There are forces that are trying to sway the Church in one direction or another. Do you agree?

Is it possible that there are those who would err on the part of elevating our Blessed Mother to a higher position than our Lord gave her?

Also, may I under any obligation to pray the Marian prayer under consideration?

Grace and peace,
Gene

 

[DavidB]

Joseph Bilodeau:

Your incapability of understanding this, whether or not you may agree with this yourself, is sad.

You’re confusing my rejection as an incapacity to comprehend. On the contrary, I know full well of what I’m rejecting. What I find sad is how easily so many are led astray.

David

 

[Fiat]

blackfish152:

Are you saying then, that the hyperbole is not literal, and the prayer is simply exagerated to make a point, but the people who say the prayer, know the catechism, and they dont really mean what the literal meaning of the prayer is that they are saying., But that they are simply pouring out their love and affection for Our Lady?

The whole point of hyperbole is to extend beyond what is literal.

Fiat

 

[Mickey]

DavidB:

I know full well of what I’m rejecting.

That is very sad indeed.

 

[sara888]

**To David and Gene C.

Where on this thread has anyone ever placed the Mother of God before Christ.?

The main problem with criticism of Catholic devotion to Mary is the basic Protestant mindset. Because Catholics venerate Mary, non-Catholics assume that this devotion must take the place of proper devotion to the Lord Jesus. They see the whole question in terms of either/or when it is really both.“You see,” the critic finishes with a flourish, “your famous Evangelical leader says that it is not Jesus but the Bible that is his ‘one comfort,’ his ‘true guide,’ and ‘God’s best and richest gift to mankind.’ It just goes to show that Evangelicals worship the Bible and not the Lord.”

Of course, this is a ridiculous distortion of the Evangelical view, but the extended analogy may help Protestants understand how Catholics feel when Protestants make similarly inaccurate charges about the Catholic devotion to Mary.

In the face of such charges Catholics reply, "Are you serious? How can you possibly make such a fundamental mistake about what we believe? We admit that some Catholics may overemphasize Mary, just like some Evangelicals may take extreme views on the Bible. Dwight Longnecker.**

Sara

 

[Sherlock]

Gene C.:

To my fellow Catholics,

We know that there is error taught and practiced in our Church. (Not from the Magisterium, of course.) There are liberal and conservative theological camps. There are forces that are trying to sway the Church in one direction or another. Do you agree?

Is it possible that there are those who would err on the part of elevating our Blessed Mother to a higher position than our Lord gave her?

Also, may I under any obligation to pray the Marian prayer under consideration?

Grace and peace,
Gene

Of course you’re not obligated to pray the Marian prayer—why would you think that you were?

In answer to your question, “Is it possible that there are those who would err on the part of elevating our Blessed Mother to a higher position than our Lord gave her”, I suppose that it’s theoretically possible. Any kind of heresy is theoretically possible: it’s possible, for example, to err by elevating the status of invisible lint-eating space aliens to a higher position than Jesus. And obviously no one can know that what every individual Catholic thinks in their minds about Mary is 100% orthodox. But do you have some major group in mind that you can name that is doing that on a real, and not theoretical, basis? I can’t, nor would any such group represent orthodox Catholicism. I’m not sure what you’re looking for here.

 

[CARose]

Gene C.:

… Also, may I under any obligation to pray the Marian prayer under consideration?..

I think what you’re asking here is are you, as a good Catholic, under any obligation to pray to Mary, or to take your concerns to her for mediation.

No, your point is well made. The Catholic Church, while acknowledging that Mary is Christ’s mother and that as such she holds a special place in His heart, does not require that anyone turn to her in their hour of need. We all are welcome to go directly to Christ, we are encouraged to develop a close relationship with Christ. We spend time with him directly in Chapel, we go to Mass to spend time giving him (never Mary) all Glory and Honor, joining in the unending Hymn of Praise of the angels in Heaven.

The Catholic Church is definitively Christocentric. Around that core is a family of saints and we acknowledge Mary as the Saint in the position of greatest honor.

I think it’s funny that the Catholic Church is occationally accused of not giving women their due, and yet it is the Catholic Church which elevates a woman as the greatest of all creatures.

Mary, please intercede for all who participate in this forum and on this thread. Request for us from your divine son all the graces possible so that we might come to better know and serve your son, Our Lord, Jesus Christ. Amen,

CARose