Mary "full of Grace?" or highly favored

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This might be slightly OT, but…

Consider the parallels between 2 Samuel 6:2-16 regarding King David and the Ark of the Covenant, with Mary in Luke 1:39-56.

Compare:

2 Samuel 6:2 David went “to Baalah of Judah.”
  • with -
    Luke 1:39 Mary went “to a town of Judah.”
2 Samuel 6:9 David asks “How can the Ark of Yahweh come to be with me?”
  • with -
    Luke 1:43 Elizabeth asks: “How is it that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
2 Samuel 6:10 David took the Ark aside to a house.
  • with -
    Luke 1:40 Mary went to the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth.
2 Samuel 6:11 The Ark stayed at the house three months.
  • with -
    Luke 1:56 Mary stayed with Elizabeth three months.
2 Samuel 6:5 David and the people celebrated before the Ark.
  • with -
    Luke 1:47 Mary’s spirit rejoiced in God, her Savior
2 Samuel 6:15 David brought the Ark accompanied by shouting.
  • with -
    Luke 1:42 Elizabeth “Cried out in a loud voice”
2 Samuel 6:16 King David was “leaping and dancing”
  • with -
    Luke 1:41 The child in Elizabeth’s womb “**leapt **for joy”.
Thus, she was and is believed to be the “Ark of the New Covenant”
 
bcullum said:
Chaldrean Rite, this is an excellent link…and explains it quite well.

Regina pacis, ora pro nobis
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God Bless you. You better thank your guardian angel for telling you to click on it.
 
Robbinson said:
Good stuff here. That’s an interesting analogy to the Ark of the Covenant (particularly to me as I have an Old Testatement background - Jew who became a Christian). I don’t think, however, we can take that too far - as you pointed out, one could not even touch the Ark of the Covenant. Also, Mary did not become a vessel to Christ until after the announciation - so this doesnt’ really go to the issue of original sin (immaculate conception). Its easier to understand/believe (and I do) that Mary was washed of her sin by the Holy Spirit upon the annunciation. I did find an earlier response quite helpful on the original sin issue - will be looking further into it.

Blessings,
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This is the summary:

agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Mary%20the%20Ark%20of%20the%20New%20Covenant.htm
 
As a convert I didn’t have the trouble that many do in accepting the Marian Dogmas. In fact, they make so much sense when one simply thinks about the nature of God.

Regarding the Immaculate Conception:

Firstly, Christ fulfilled all of the Commandments perfectly, in a way that only God can, because He is God. This of course includes the Commandment to honour your father and mother. Christ loved His Mother perfectly.

Secondly, one need only reflect on the way one loves their own mother. We as Christians should love everyone and do whatever we can to aid their path to salvation. But our mother will always hold a certain place in our hearts. I personally try to do whatever I can to show my mother the love I have for her, and give her the best I can. In the same way Christ - as the Second Person of the Eternally Triune God - loves all, but His Mother holds a special place in His Heart.

Thirdly, Our Lord’s love for His mother was not only the love of a son, but also the love of God. God’s love is all-powerful, perfect and eternal. God is omniscient, and therefore knew who would be His mother, even before her parents had been created - even before the creation of the angels.

It is not a matter of Mary having to be without sin. Sin is representative of turning away from God, and Original Sin is representative of the entire human race as a whole turning away from God. Original Sin is a curse that humanity has brought upon itself, and is offensive to God.

God chose to create Our Lady without Original Sin out of the filial love He has for Her. He wanted to give His future mother the most loving gift He could: not creating Her with the taint of sin. It is a reflection of how good God is, and that He is the exemplar of what it means to be a Son.
 
ITHROWCHEESE, thanks for your comments they are very good and thought provoking.

I have a couple questions for you if you would be so kind?
  1. Is your mother a Catholic?
  2. Being a convert how do you address your own mother about your new faith.
I strugle with this everytime I visit my parents with my children and go to our old Baptist Church and here subtle anti-catholic remarks from the pulpit.

Sorry for starying a bit from the topic…but it is still about our mother.
thks
 
This question was also discussed last February in a couple of posts and you may want to consider The arguement I made concerning God’s words to the serpant in the Garden of eden, " I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between Her seed and your’s" and consider thatGod only speaks one eternal thought, so therefore He is eternally putting enmity between the woman and the serpent, His action, His gift. Is there any question but, that Mary is that Woman?

Forum: Sacred Scripture Feb 23, '08, 3:07 am
Replies: 81 Why “O favoured” instead of “Full of grace?”
Views: 2,348 Posted By Douglas Kraeger
Re: Why “O favoured” instead of “Full of grace?”
 
bcullum said:
ITHROWCHEESE, thanks for your comments they are very good and thought provoking.

I have a couple questions for you if you would be so kind?
  1. Is your mother a Catholic?
  2. Being a convert how do you address your own mother about your new faith.
I strugle with this everytime I visit my parents with my children and go to our old Baptist Church and here subtle anti-catholic remarks from the pulpit.

Sorry for starying a bit from the topic…but it is still about our mother.
thks
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bcullum, I’m glad that my comments may be of some help for you. 🙂

In reply to your first question, no my mother is not a Catholic. She and my father are Pentecostals, which is the church that I was raised in.

Secondly, it can be very difficult at times to talk with them about my conversion. My father is an ex-Catholic, so there have been plenty of anti-Catholic teachings in the house.

When I first told my mother that I was looking into Catholic teaching, she initially replied with several anti-Catholic objections, which I was able to respond to. After I was able to show that my conversion was spiritually and reasonably guided, she stopped objecting outright to Catholicism.

She told me one day that she had been praying for me and had this overwhelming sense of peace about the whole thing, and that God had me in His hands. So she has accepted that I am still a Christian, and more importantly that other members of the Catholic Church are actually Christians.

What I do is pray for her and the rest of my family every single day. This includes prayers for the complete unity of Christians, and as an intention for my daily Rosary. On top of that, I live as an example of my faith, knowing full well that at times I am being watched…

When mum notices me making the Sign of the Cross before Grace, or any other Catholic devotion, she asks me why I do it, and I truthfully and succinctly answer her. I don’t attempt to actively convert her, but answer her and entrust her to God’s love and mercy.

I must say that ever since I began praying for my parents that plenty of Catholic icons, films and books have begun appearing in their house. I know God is working on them.
 
Ithrowcheese, Thanks for your inspiring words. I can certainly say that your witness though your comments on this forum has helped me. pls pray for me as I will you and yours.

“Queen of peace, pray for us.”
 
Douglas_Kraeger said:
This question was also discussed last February in a couple of posts and you may want to consider The arguement I made concerning God’s words to the serpant in the Garden of eden, " I will put enmity between you and the Woman, between Her seed and your’s" and consider thatGod only speaks one eternal thought, so therefore He is eternally putting enmity between the woman and the serpent, His action, His gift. Is there any question but, that Mary is that Woman?

Forum: Sacred Scripture Feb 23, '08, 3:07 am
Replies: 81 Why “O favoured” instead of “Full of grace?”
Views: 2,348 Posted By Douglas Kraeger
Re: Why “O favoured” instead of “Full of grace?”
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Thanks I will do a search. God bless
 
bcullum said:
Ithrowcheese, Thanks for your inspiring words. I can certainly say that your witness though your comments on this forum has helped me. pls pray for me as I will you and yours.

“Queen of peace, pray for us.”
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Your quite welcome. Thankyou for your prayers; I will do the same for you.

God bless.
 
ithrowcheese said:
God chose to create Our Lady without Original Sin out of the filial love He has for Her. He wanted to give His future mother the most loving gift He could: not creating Her with the taint of sin…
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How do we know this to be the case ?

Scripture teaches “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God”. Does it say thereafter …except for Mary ?

Do the scriptures teach Christ treated Mary in an extra special way. No ! Indeed, He taught the opposite. He said whoever keeps His commandments is His brother, sister, or mother.

I love the typology in OT … and its revelation in NT times. I know the Church sees Mary as the new Ark of Covenant & the new Eve. But, for Mary to the be the superstar the Church has made her … I would have expected more in OT prophesy to set the stage for her role the Church has bestowed upon her.
 
Michael_G said:
Others are reported to have been santified in the wombs of their mothers, in virtue of an extraordinary privilege of grace
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. Thuse we are told with regard to Jeremiah: "Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb **I sanctified thee Jer 1:5. **and in Luke 1:15 the angel says of John the Baptist: " He shall be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb." We cannot suppose that the favor granted to the precursor of Christ and to the prophet was denied to Christ’s own mother… Yet such sanctification did not preced the infusion of her soul…**The blessed Virgin Mary, however, was sanctfied with such a wealth of grace that thencforth she was preserved free from all sin:
**

Yes, good points ! Some of the greatest prophets were possessed of H.S. by special graces of God. And we are told in OT & NT of this fact. Does this mean John and Jeremiah had no original sin ? I never hear anyone suggest they didn’t.

But, regarding Mary … we are not told the same applies. At least not from the womb.

Perhaps all the great prophets fit this mold. Elijah, Moses, etc. Maybe they are all extra special creations of God … for whom sin and the law don’t apply. But, God disciplined Moses for his disobedience and lack of faith. So, I don’t think we should go down this road of reasoning about ‘special human creations’.

So, can we make exception for Mary … and say she is the only one who never had original sin ?
 
BRB said:
Yes, good points ! Some of the greatest prophets were possessed of H.S. by special graces of God. And we are told in OT & NT of this fact. Does this mean John and Jeremiah had no original sin ? I never hear anyone suggest they didn’t.

But, regarding Mary … we are not told the same applies. At least not from the womb.

Perhaps all the great prophets fit this mold. Elijah, Moses, etc. Maybe they are all extra special creations of God … for whom sin and the law don’t apply. But, God disciplined Moses for his disobedience and lack of faith. So, I don’t think we should go down this road of reasoning about ‘special human creations’.

So, can we make exception for Mary … and say she is the only one who never had original sin ?
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We can make this assertion based on what we know about Mary. The most significant statement about her is stated by Gabriel, the mouth piece of God, when he says that she is again “full of grace”. One then must ask, what is grace? It is the Catholic understanding that grace is a supernatural gift from God that is imparted to each of us to lead us to salvation. Now if one is full of grace, then there is no room for anything other than the salvific work completed in her. None of the other OT prophets or even John the Baptist were stated to be ‘full’ of this grace found in Mary. Based on a typological understanding of scripture and the guidance of how the Holy Spirit guides the Church we make the assertion of the Immaculate Conception which was believed by the Church Fathers and the early Church.
 
BRB said:
Would any young girl facing Gabriel turn down the invitation to be mother to the Messiah?
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Six months before the same angel appeared to Zachariah, told him pretty much the same that he told later to Mary, but actually even less miraculous, yet he, a priest of the Lord, doubted.

:blessyou:
 
We also know that the original sin inclines to concupiscence, something that limits our freedom. Mary, as the new Eve, just as our first mother was perfectly free to choose disobedience, was asked to perfectly freely choose to bear the Son of God. Like Eve, she could only be perfectly free if she had been conceived without the original sin, therefore, before the Annunciation she was already Immaculate from her conception.

:blessyou:
 
BRB said:
Do the scriptures teach Christ treated Mary in an extra special way. No ! Indeed, He taught the opposite. He said whoever keeps His commandments is His brother, sister, or mother.
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So you mean that when Jesus says that who follows His commandments would not be dear to Him? If He said that one would then be like His mother, that says quite a lot about the love that He has for those who follow Him.

Also, remember Cana, where He obeyed His mother even though the time was not ripe yet. Which other mother does God obey?

:blessyou:
 
Augustine said:
So you mean that when Jesus says that who follows His commandments would not be dear to Him? If He said that one would then be like His mother, that says quite a lot about the love that He has for those who follow Him.

Also, remember Cana, where He obeyed His mother even though the time was not ripe yet. Which other mother does God obey?

:blessyou:
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Obviously Christ would follow the 10 commandments and honor human father/mother’s wishes … Christ never sinned.

Mark 3:31-35 And his mother and his brothers came; and standing outside they sent to him and called him. And a crowd was sitting about him; and they said to him, “Your mother and your brothers are outside, asking for you.” And He replied, “who are my mother and my brothers?” And looking around on those who sat about him, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! Whoever does the will of God is my brother, and sister, and mother.”

Does answer suggest to you that Christ saw Mary as extra special in the Kingdom ?
 
Augustine said:
Six months before the same angel appeared to Zachariah, told him pretty much the same that he told later to Mary, but actually even less miraculous, yet he, a priest of the Lord, doubted.

:blessyou:
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True … but, didn’t Mary also doubt the angel Gabriel ? She also questioned how she could be mother to the Lord. Yet, while Zachariah was punished … Mary’s disbelief was not.

Now, perhaps the fact she wasn’t punished might suggest she was ‘extra special’ !!

Still, the very fact she expressed doubts / disbelief … is a sin. Thus, how could she of been sinless or perfected – prior to the annuciation ?
 
bcullum said:
I was reading a non-catholic web site to better understand their issues and arguments…came across this Mary as highly favored and St Jerome translated it to Full of Grace instead of translating it accurately to highly favored. Possibly a good question for the robo-Catholic (Jimmie Akin)

Here are a couple quotes from the web site.

“The phrase “full of grace” in Greek is “plaras karitos” and it occurs in only two places in the New Testament, neither one is in reference to Mary.”

“Therefore, we conclude that the Roman Catholic Church has manufactured far too much doctrine concerning Mary out of the erroneous translation of the Latin Vulgate Bible and that the RCC needs to recant its false teaching concerning Mary.”

Pls read the entire article to get the full understanding (it’s only about a page long).
carm.org/catholic/fullofgrace.htm
thanks
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Isn’t Our Mother both of them? “Full of Grace” and “highly favored”. 🙂
 
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