Mary is Sinless

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JSmitty2005:
Why don’t you get your friend to sign up on here so we can talk with them directly? We can’t know exactly what they’re asking otherwise.
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For some reason, he wouldn’t want to sign-up
 
JSmitty2005 said:
scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html

Mary is “full of grace.” Also, she is the Ark of the New Covenant. Furthermore, she is the New Eve and is referred to in Genesis 3:15 where enmity is put between her and Satan. Enmity means total separation. This can only be achieved by her sinlessness. Also note that it is not her doing. God says, “I will put enmity…” Hope that helps somewhat. Furthermore, the Church Fathers of both East and West all agree on this as well as the original “reformers.”
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The Gospel according to John relies heavily on the book of Genesis. In Genesis the woman isn’t given a name until after she sinned. Gen 3:20. As long as she remained sinless she was referred to as the woman. In the Gospel, John never mentions Mary’s name. Jesus Himself addresses her as woman(sinless). John 2:4, 19:26 See also Revelation 12.1, also written by John.
I guess that just about wraps this thread up. I just finished wrapping up the “Presbyters and Elders” thread. I’ll go ahead and file these in the “Threadkiller” mission accomplished folder. Good day. :cool:
 
Well guys sorry for prolonging the thread. I am expecting myself to sit down with him some day and talk about this. I need to give him the answer. Atleast, I need to learn the faith to better defend it in the future. For this topic, what would you recommend me to research, as you know they have that 'Where is it in the bible?" argument. I really want to discover some real things from the Scripture.
 
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christaddict:
My friend says that if Mary is sinless, there is no need for Jesus to come to earth. **God would have her as a sacrifice instead of Jesus. **

We need to say illustrate about the concept of original sin. Most of the doctrines like Ark of the Covenant are too strange.
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the part i highlighted shows that your friend thinks mary is God. or she is trying to get you to say that mary is god…or your friend thinks catholics think mary is god…

mary is what adam and eve were before the fall…sinless.

mary had what adam and eve had before the fall…grace…

mary is full of grace

adam and eve lost this grace when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad judgement.

mary is full of grace

mary was born full of grace

mary was conceived full of grace

just as adam and eve were.

mary is the greatest human that ever lived.

she is the holiest person who ever lived because she was born full of grace…she never sinned…yet many in the bible who are considered holy did sin…adam, moses, david, jacob, israel.

mary is the only one who never sinned.
because she was born without the sin that adam and eve passed onto the rest of humanity.

but just because she is sinless does not make her god anymore than adam and eve, who also are not god. however adam and eve wanted to be like god…and they failed and became sinners.mary never tried to be like god…in fact she called him her savior…for she is as human as adam and eve were before the fall. she does not think she is god, for she refers to god as her savior yet she was born without sin. …just as adam and eve were

jesus is sinless…ask them how that came to be?
 
now i am just thinking out loud

adam and eve were not perfect…we know this because they were not god…only god is perfect

how do i know that and adam and eve were not perfect?

because there was a tree in the garden called the tree of life…which is jesus…

so even though adam and eve were in the garden and had each other…they still needed god and eternal life. which is the tree of life.

they did not have eternal life when they were created…they were created to die…even if they didn’t sin.

i could be wrong but that is what my reasoning tells me from the facts in the book of genesis.

so even if adam and eve did not sin…they still needed to be saved from death…they are not perfect enough to save themselves…they aren’t god. only god can save them. whether they have sinned or not…

we know this in our life as well…that we need to be saved from evil even when we are in a state of grace.

humans can;t save themselves…they weren’t designed to do that. god gave us life…and when we die we hope to be saved into heaven or eternal life…

again i am just thinking out loud and reasoning things out. i am not sure if i am correct or not. but i tend to think i am correct

oh i know what i wanted to say…god needed a perfect lamb and that is jesus. we can’t save ourselves. only jesus/god can
 
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LumenGentium:
the part i highlighted shows that your friend thinks mary is God. or she is trying to get you to say that mary is god…or your friend thinks catholics think mary is god…

mary is what adam and eve were before the fall…sinless.

mary had what adam and eve had before the fall…grace…

mary is full of grace

adam and eve lost this grace when they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and bad judgement.

mary is full of grace

mary was born full of grace

mary was conceived full of grace

just as adam and eve were.

mary is the greatest human that ever lived.

she is the holiest person who ever lived because she was born full of grace…she never sinned…yet many in the bible who are considered holy did sin…adam, moses, david, jacob, israel.

mary is the only one who never sinned.
because she was born without the sin that adam and eve passed onto the rest of humanity.

but just because she is sinless does not make her god anymore than adam and eve, who also are not god. however adam and eve wanted to be like god…and they failed and became sinners.mary never tried to be like god…in fact she called him her savior…for she is as human as adam and eve were before the fall. she does not think she is god, for she refers to god as her savior yet she was born without sin. …just as adam and eve were

jesus is sinless…ask them how that came to be?
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Yes, the first thing that I did was to refute the idea that she is God. And that we honour and respect her. Even though I had given good reasoning of all the WHYs, he would revert back saying “We shouldn’t even honour or respect her”. Back then, I got really offened by that. We got to pray for those hard-heartened.
 
Should we honour and respect anyone?
Hasn’t he ever spoken about a person in times past and said what a good person they were?
If he was at court, would he refer to the judge as ‘your honour’?
Does he honour and respect his mother and father? (He’d better - it’s in the commandments).
Does he have respect for the dead? Or does he go around bad-mouthing them?
 
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christaddict:
Yes, the first thing that I did was to refute the idea that she is God. And that we honour and respect her. Even though I had given good reasoning of all the WHYs, he would revert back saying “We shouldn’t even honour or respect her”. Back then, I got really offened by that. We got to pray for those hard-heartened.
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tell them they must honor and respect her…just as we must honor and respect each other…our parents, our children, our spouses, our neighbors, our bosses.

however, she is very special and deserving of a special and higher honor and respect. higher than the president of the united states. higher than the flag of the united states.

to treat her disrespectfully is worse than treating our parents disrespectfully.

ask your friend if he thinks we should disrespect her…because that is what it sounds like he is saying.

if he is then i would ask him to pray about whether god wants him to disrespect jesus’ mother. ask him if that seems righteous.

when i hear people say that we should not respect mary i hear that as disrespect to all women. and i would start questioning his views on how he thinks about women…i bet that he has a very low unchaste view of them…thinks they are evil…and i would tell him that he needs to pray to god to change his heart and mind to have a pure and holy view towards women. rather than a nasty negative unholy one for he is sinning in his mind against women. habitual sin i would venture to say, i would ‘convict him’ on that if i were you.

ask him if he thinks its wrong to honor and respect the president of the united states, or martin luther king or any sports hero or anyone who is deserving of our admiration and respect.she deserves more respect and honor than they do.

he must change his views on women…that is for certain.

i myself won’t waste time with someone who thinks its ok to disrespect women. i would find out how he feels about mary and women and if it is nasty…i would stop conversing with this person. let god take care of it.
 
i just noticed you are from india

tell him she deserves more respect than gandhi. including both mahatmas and indira put together.

i would keep saying it over and over like a broken record. because usually at this point the objector gets obnoxious and refuses to listen,conversation goes downhilll…at least with me it does. but maybe you are more patient than me.

i just can’t tolerate people who argue with me that mary shouldn’t be honored or respected.
 
Of course we should honor Mary. Jesus followed the Law completely and was sinless. Therefore, He honored His Father and mother. In fact, the word used for “honor” actually means “to glorify.” So, Jesus glorified Mary. As Christians, we are to imitate Christ so we must also glorify Mary. After all, she is our mother too.

“When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, ‘Woman**, behold, your son**!’ Then he said to the disciple, 'Behold, your mother!’ And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home.”
(Gospel of John 19:26-27)
Has your friend “taken her (Mary) into his own home”? If he is a disciple, then it seems as though he should. Otherwise, he’s not following the Bible.

“A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth…She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne…Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.”
(Rev. 12:1-2,5,17)
This woman “gave birth to a son…destined to rule all the nations.” Who does that sound like? JESUS!!! That means that the woman is the mother of Jesus, Mary. Later, it goes on to say that “the rest of her offspring” are “those who…bear witness to Jesus.” Don’t you think that sounds like what Christians do? Christians are Mary’s other offspring. We are her spiritual offspring and she is our mother. As such, we must glorify her because that’s what the 10 Commandments command us to do so.

Also, look at the honor that Elizabeth shows towards Mary:

“And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit and she exclaimed with a loud cry, ‘Blessed are you among women and blessed is the fruit of your womb! And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?’”
(Luke 1:41-43)

“And Mary said, ‘My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name’”
(Luke 1:46-49)
Mary prophecies that “all generations will call [her] blessed.” Does your friend do this? Or does he consider her to be “just a vessel”? Also, she says that her “soul magnifies the Lord” in the same discourse. Obviously she knew that calling her blessed would not detract from her Son, otherwise she would not have said that. Furthermore, Mary says at the wedding feast of Cana to “do whatever he tells you.” Mary points us to Jesus and as I’ve noted above, Jesus points us to Mary.

“If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together”
(1 Cor. 12:26)
Remember this verse when your friend says that we shouldn’t even honor her. When one member is honored, all rejoice together!
 
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christaddict:
Well guys sorry for prolonging the thread. I am expecting myself to sit down with him some day and talk about this. I need to give him the answer. Atleast, I need to learn the faith to better defend it in the future. For this topic, what would you recommend me to research, as you know they have that 'Where is it in the bible?" argument. I really want to discover some real things from the Scripture.
Click to expand...
If you want to share the catholic faith with superficial sound bites, it’ll never work. If you really want scriptural evidence for devotion to Mary you need to get off the surface and dive deep into the scripture. You might catch some fish. Luke 5:4
After you sit down with your friend and pray with him. Inform him that you don’t have any sound bites for him. Then ask him why the wise men prostrated themselves in front of Mary? Matt.2:11 He’ll probably reply that they weren’t worshipping Mary, they were worshipping Jesus. Then you reply, “Hey that’s my line. We don’t worship Mary we worship Jesus”. You should try to establish Mary as the Ark of the new covenant with these parallel verses: 2Sam 6 > Luke 1
V.2 > V.39
V.9 > V43
V.10 > V40
V.11 > V.56
V.12 > V.47
V.15 > V.42
V.16 > V.41
Then go back to Matthew 2.11"And entering into the house, they found the child with Mary his mother and falling down they adored Him; and opening their treasures, they offered Him gifts: gold, frankiscense, and myrrh" and show him how this is a fullfillment of Joshua 7:6 “But Joshua rent his garments and fell flat on the ground before the ark of the Lord until the evening, both he and all the ancients of Israel: and they put dust upon their heads”. Show him that Joshua and the ancients were worshipping God and not the ark, although they prostrated themselves in front of this graven image. On the other hand, show him that the wisemen worshipped Jesus and not Mary although they prostrated themselves in front of this “woman”. That’s why they’re wisemen. Most importantly, if Mary is the ark in Matt 2:11, then who is Jesus? He’s the God in Joshua 7:6.
To know Mary is to know Jesus.
Oh well, there it is, right there in the Bible.
 
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