"Mary is the way?"

[JesusIsTheWay]

SlimJim:

Luke 23:43 And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

This guy is in heaven right now. Why would Mary still be in “soul sleep”.

Read John 5:28-29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This parallels the teachings in Revelations about the Resurrection of the saved and the second death…

 

[SteveG]

JesusIsTheWay:

okies I’ll bite… maybe thats a possibility. But if thats the case, where are all the sightings and influences of Moses? Elijah? Enoch? Why havent their been any sightings of them? They arent here. They are in heaven. Mary can’t be there and here at the same time. That is the power of omniscience… a power only the lord would have…

Ummm…didn’t Peter, James and John see both Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration?

And certainly being two places at once need not imply omniscience (being EVERYWHERE at once). Being two places at once is Bi-location and would take much less ‘power’ than being the almighty.

In any event, I have a question for you. Do you ever bind and rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus?

 

[Timothy]

JesusIsTheWay:

okies I’ll bite… maybe thats a possibility. But if thats the case, where are all the sightings and influences of Moses? Elijah? Enoch? Why havent their been any sightings of them? They arent here. They are in heaven. Mary can’t be there and here at the same time. That is the power of omniscience… a power only the lord would have…

I’m not actually trying to get you to bite. To be Honest, this was simply to show that Maryian Devotion isn’t as foriegn or as out there as it often seems on the surface.

You asked why we are’nt seeing apparitions of Moses and the Crew but there is an account of it in scripture at the Transfiguration. It occured through the will of God, by the Power of God, for his greater Glory.

It is possible that God is using Mary in this way now as we have a more emotional connection with her. When Jesus made his Transfiguration, The disciples were Jews that were attached in a real and emotional way to the prophets and the patriarchs. These were people that they knew, and knew of. Today, we attach ourselves to Mary and the Saints, and maybe God uses them in a similar fashion.

 

[Lorarose]

Mary can be exactly anywhere God would send her.
She could pass on exactly the message that God would request her to pass on.
Mary has always done what God has requested of her.
And she points to her Divine Son “Do whatever He tells you.”

It is difficult for some to make the distinction between worship and devotion.

I do not worship Mary. She is a human being.
But I do believe in intercessory prayer.
It is quite common here on earth for people to get excited about this or that person who may have certain gifts…a gift of healing - a gift of knowledge …a gift of wisdom.
And sometimes we get excited about asking those people to pray for us. We ask our family and friends to pray for us - and often can see the results.

Catholics believe this extends to the souls in heaven as well.
I believe I can still ask my deceased daughter to pray for me.
I ask my deceased grandparents to pray for me.
I know they are human - I do not worship them. I do not think they are the “way” to my salvation.

And so it is with Mary. But WHY NOT get excited about having such a friend as we have with Mary?
She is the MOTHER OF JESUS!!! How close to Christ can a person get?
So, yes - I pray to Jesus - to God - to the Holy Spirit. I ask others to pray for me - living and dead.
It is not an “either/or” situation (Jesus OR Mary) It is blessing upon blessing. It is prayer upon prayer.

Jesus is a perfect man and a perfect God. He is a perfect Son.
He loves his mother perfectly. He shares His Heavenly Father with us - why would he NOT share His beautiful mother with us also?
Do we not often hear the challenge - Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
Well…when we have personal relationships with people - do we exclude their friends and family? Do we say - “Oh no - my relationship is only with you! - Not with all those other people you love!!” That would be silly!

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

I’m Breaking my response into a few different responses to cover a few points…

Timothy:

We pray with Mary, oftentimes. We ask her to join her prayers with ours, absolutely. But we also pry directly to God as well. In fact most of the Mass, including the entire Second half, the liturgy of the Eucharist, is prayers directed toward God alone.

But the problem as I see it is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus… How can you pray directly to God when Jesus is the Mediator?

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

SteveG:

In any event, I have a question for you. Do you ever bind and rebuke Satan in the name of Jesus?

Yes I do, in my prayers, every day…

 

[SteveG]

JesusIsTheWay:

Yes I do, in my prayers, every day…

Interesting, because as a former evangelical familiar with the practice, I know that there are millions of other Christians all over the world doing the same thing, probably many of them at the same moment. So, do you suppose Satan ‘hears’ all of those commands at the same time? What would that say about his power? Does that make him omniscient?

 

[Timothy]

JesusIsTheWay:

But the problem as I see it is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus… How can you pray directly to God when Jesus is the Mediator?

The same way that you do, through Christ, because ultimately, once you trace all of Catholic devotion and frills and sometimes outright tackiness to it’s source, you find that it is Christ where we put our hope. We believe the same as any Christian that we are saved through the merits of Christ’s sacrifice on the Cross and his ressurection from the Dead.

 

[SwissGuard]

JesusIsTheWay:

I honestly see it as the devil’s clever distraction away from the worship of Jesus. There are many historical roots to this but the worship of Marianism hadn’t even started until 300 years after Christ…

No. Prayers to Mary are meant to uplift Jesus, not Mary. And regarding your worship comment…Catholics never, ever worship Mary in any sense of the word. Worship is for God alone.

JesusIsTheWay:

okies I’ll bite… maybe thats a possibility. But if thats the case, where are all the sightings and influences of Moses? Elijah? Enoch? Why havent their been any sightings of them? They arent here. They are in heaven. Mary can’t be there and here at the same time. That is the power of omniscience… a power only the lord would have…

Not necessarily. First of all, Catholics are not required to believe in the appearances of Mary or other saints…it just isn’t seen as a bad thing if you do.

Secondly, Mary and the rest of the saints have no “powers” of their own. They can do nothing without Christ, and everything they do is through Christ and…most importantly… for Christ. As some people have briefly explained in other threads, praying to them is the same thing as you asking a close friend to pray for something with you or on your behalf. They are definitely not prayers of worship.

The Catholic Church teaches that you definitely should pray to Jesus…but no human being that has ever lived knows Him the way His mother did. Mary’s goal and purpose is (and always has been) to lead the world to Christ.

I hope this answers some questions. God Bless.

 

[SteveG]

JesusIsTheWay:

But the problem as I see it is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus… How can you pray directly to God when Jesus is the Mediator?

I think your misunderstanding Catholic practice here. We ask Mary to pray to Jesus for us, who in turn is the way to the father. We understand Mary to be bringing us closer to Jesus. We do not ask Mary to pray to the Father, but to Jesus. Hope that’s clear.

This is her role in any mediation. And in fact many of us play that same role (to a lesser extent). Have you ever evangilized someone who then found Jesus? Well then, you are a co-mediator/co-redemtrix to the extent you COoperated with God in helping to bring that person to Jesus. This doesn’t mean you (or Mary) are ‘co’ with Jesus in the sense of equals, but rather co in the sense of cooperating with Him. Mary is Co-Redeemer/Co-Redemtrix extrodinare since it is in and through her body that Jesus was given to the world.

 

[SwissGuard]

Small Interlude:

**OMNIPOTENT = All Powerful

OMNIPRESENT = Everywhere

OMNISCIENT= All Knowing**

Just thought I’d throw that in there in case people were confused.

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

SteveG:

Interesting, because as a former evangelical familiar with the practice, I know that there are millions of other Christians all over the world doing the same thing, probably many of them at the same moment. So, do you suppose Satan ‘hears’ all of those commands at the same time? What would that say about his power? Does that make him omniscient?

No I think that Satan, is in one place at a time, like any other angel. But his influence, is in many places at once, that’s for sure. When I pray, I ask that Jesus bind the devil and his influences away from me and my wife and family. Does he hear all the commands at the same time? I imagine it would get really repetative when Jesus DOES intervene and stops him from working his evil. However, one thing I am learning…sometimes painfully… is that sometime when we pray, when we make a request, and ask for intervention, sometimes the answer is no… Like any good father, I believe that sometimes the enemy is allowed access to try and influence us. We are to be tested. We are to go through trials and tribulations. It’s what molds us. Like forging a sword, you have to beat it many times over and over to create a fine weapon to combat the enemy.

 

[Timothy]

Ladies and Gentlemen, I am off to Bed, as I have a 12 hour shift in the morning…too early…

I have enjoyed our conversation and will rejoin soon. Please pray for me at work tomorrow, and for my patients.

God’s medic signing off,
Pax et Hooah.

 

[SteveG]

JesusIsTheWay:

No I think that Satan, is in one place at a time, like any other angel. But his influence, is in many places at once, that’s for sure. When I pray, I ask that Jesus bind the devil and his influences away from me and my wife and family. Does he hear all the commands at the same time? I imagine it would get really repetative when Jesus DOES intervene and stops him from working his evil.

I don’t want to push this too far as your understanding seems to be very different than what I was familiar with. If you don’t mind me asking, what are the EXACT words you use for ‘binding’ in your prayer (mental or vocal)?

JesusIsTheWay:

However, one thing I am learning…sometimes painfully… is that sometime when we pray, when we make a request, and ask for intervention, sometimes the answer is no… Like any good father, I believe that sometimes the enemy is allowed access to try and influence us. We are to be tested. We are to go through trials and tribulations. It’s what molds us. Like forging a sword, you have to beat it many times over and over to create a fine weapon to combat the enemy.

Sounds almost…Catholic

 

[White_Knight]

Thanks for the definitions, Swiss…I saw some confusion there myself.

 

[SlimJim]

JesusIsTheWay:

Read John 5:28-29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This parallels the teachings in Revelations about the Resurrection of the saved and the second death…

Sorry, it took me a while to find this passage:

1Pet 3:18-20
For Christ also died for the sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison who formerly did not obey, when God’s parience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.

Was this “when those in the grave shall hear his voice”?

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

I too must join you. My time for tonight here has come to an end. Like I did in the beginning of this post, I would like to thank all that have participated. I have to admit, I have learned quite a bit about the Catholic Faith. I will be honest. My perception of the involvement in Mary is not what i though it was. Though there are still points I question and disagree upon, I consider my self a lot more educated on the matter and I will be more careful when word my point of view on the matter.

Thanks all.

God Bless you all.

Until tomorrow.

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

SteveG:

I don’t want to push this too far as your understanding seems to be very different than what I was familiar with. If you don’t mind me asking, what are the EXACT words you use for ‘binding’ in your prayer (mental or vocal)?

Sounds almost…Catholic

My words…

…If it your will, I ask you, in the name of Jesus. to bind the enemy and his infuence away from me, my famaily and those I care about…

I don’t know what you mean by sounding Catholic… Was merely relating my outlook on life

 

[JesusIsTheWay]

now… I really mean it this time, SteveG!!

I’m going to bed!!!

Night!!

 

[ralphinal]

JesusIsTheWay:

But you still pray through Mary, do you not? Do you confess your sins to a priest? I confess my sins to Jesus. I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. I think thats one of my biggest GRRRR’s is that Jesus basically said that he was to be the prime focus of what you do in your life. No one else…

Not to stray too far, but look at James 5:16. Confess your sins to each other?