"Mary is the way?"

[SwissGuard]

No problem, Knight.

JesusIsTheWay, this is from the other thread (the one that lead to the forming of this new thread). I think others have said just about everything that needs to be said regarding your comment about you being “well aware what the Catholic Church teaches…” so I won’t go there. I do have some questions regarding this quote, however: (although it’s probably for another thread…oh well…)

JesusIsTheWay:

And if the Bible says otherwise, I have to disagree with the teaching. It’s common sense to me. So please… enlighten me…

The Bible according to whom? Which Bible are you referring to? How do you know which books belong in that Bible? Do you believe in what the Bible teaches alone and nothing more? If so, can you support that with Scripture?

As Catholics, we hold the Bible in very high esteem…but equally important are the teachings of the Church and sacred tradition (Teachings and traditions about Mary included).

God Bless.

 

[hawkeye]

JesusIsTheWay:

Mary is not the way to our Salvation… ok your turn!!!

Well GOD chose Mary to bring the Saviour into the world, so if God approved of her,who are we to argue.

 

[hawkeye]

JesusIsTheWay:

I too must join you. My time for tonight here has come to an end. Like I did in the beginning of this post, I would like to thank all that have participated. I have to admit, I have learned quite a bit about the Catholic Faith. I will be honest. My perception of the involvement in Mary is not what i though it was. Though there are still points I question and disagree upon, I consider my self a lot more educated on the matter and I will be more careful when word my point of view on the matter.

Thanks all.

God Bless you all.

Until tomorrow.

Hi !!! you will probably be snoring by the time you read this, but you said you go to Jesus to confess your sins, so do Catholics.
The priest is a witness to our confession, Jesus is truly in the confessional box, if you don’t understand Transubstantiation, then you will have a hard time understanding this.
So who do you say is the Father of Jesus ?
Do you believe the Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary and she carried the Saviour ?
Well if you can’t get past this stage, you will have a hard time understanding the rest.
Goodnight !!!

 

[agname]

I’ve always found it interesting…how certain individuals…believe Jesus handed out copies of the Bible to the Apostles…it didn’t happen that way. St. Mark’s gospels were written ~ 42-52 AD. St. Matthew and St. Luke’s ~63-70 AD…St. John’s was not written until at least ~ 97 AD.

It was ~ 64 years before the last Gospel was completed…so how were individuals taught?

The Roman Catholic Church is the Mother of the Bible…not the Daughter…it wasn’t gathered into one book…until the Roman Catholic Church did it at The Council of Hippo – 393 AD…and confirmed at The Council of Carthage – 397 AD. The Catholic Church was founded by Christ…upon Peter (Matthew 16:18 ) – “Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my church.” And, the keys were handed to him. Peter was our first Pope. Simon, whose name means “reed,” is having his name changed by Jesus from a reed that blows in the wind to a “rock” (In Aramaic it’s “kepha”) that stands firm. In John 21:15-18…Peter is forgiven three times…for having denied Jesus three times…and Jesus asks him to “tend” and “feed” his sheep…his Church. There are many things in the Bible that can not be taken literal. To understand many portions of the Bible one must be familiar with various Judaic and Christian traditions. The Bible even warns of literal and private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20) “First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation.” In, 2 Peter 3:16, it shows, “There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” Paul acknowledges that much Christian teaching is to be found in the tradition which is handed down by word of mouth (1 Cor. 11:2, 2 Tim. 2:2). Paul instructs us to “stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter” (2 Thess. 2:15). We are told that the first Christians “devoted themselves to the apostles’ teaching” (Acts 2:42), which was the oral teaching that was given even before the New Testament was written. If you choose not to believe it…it’s your prerogative.

Ponder the following…

Acts 8:30-31:

Philip ran up and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and said, “Do you understand what you are reading?” He replied, “How can I, unless someone instructs me?” So he invited Philip to get in and sit with him.

 

[agname]

Various comments from our Apostolic Fathers…in regards to the Blessed Virgin:

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."in ULL,94, St. Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235)

“Now with the exception of the holy Virgin Mary in regard to whom, out of respect for the Lord, I do not propose to have a single question raised on the subject of sin – after all, how do we know what greater degree of grace for a complete victory over sin was conferred on her who merited to conceive and bring forth Him who all admit was without sin – to repeat then: with the exception of this Virgin, if we could bring together into one place all those holy men and women, while they lived here, and ask them whether they were without sin, what are we to suppose that they would have replied?” St. Augustine, De natura et gratia PL 44:267( A.D.415)

–

“Mary, a virgin not only undefiled but a virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free from every stain.” St. Ambrose of Milan (A.D. 340-397)

–

"“Thou, and Thy Mother are alone in this. You are wholly beautiful in every respect. There is in Thee, Lord, no stain, nor any spot in Thy Mother.” (Poem to Christ)

“My Lady Most Holy, All-Pure, All-Immaculate, All-Stainless, All-Undefiled, All-Incorrupt, All-Inviolate …Spotless Robe of Him Who clothes Himself with light as with a garment …Flower unfading, purple woven by God, alone Most Immaculate.” (Ibid) St. Ephraem the Syrian (c. 350 A.D.)

–

“As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” St. Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

–

“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.”
St. Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

–

“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” St. Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

–

“[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary.” St. Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

–

“[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever.” St. Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

 

[agname]

“She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay” Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,180

–

“Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God… The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation”
St. Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

–

“O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew.” St. John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200

–

“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.”,in ULL,94, Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244)

–

“Since Mary would not have been a worthy mother of God if she had ever sinned, we assert without qualification that Mary never committed a sinful act, fatal or non-fatal: You are wholly beautiful, my love, and without blemish. Christ is the source of grace, author of it as God and instrument of it as man, and, since Mary was closest to Christ in giving him his human nature, she rightly received from him fullness of grace: grace in such abundance as to bring her closest in grace to its author, receiving into herself the one who was full of every grace [for others], and, by giving birth to him, bringing grace to all.” St. Thomas Aquinas (Summa Theologica IIIa:27.4-5)

 

[agname]

A good read…

Dialogue on Whether the Assumption and Immaculate Conception of Mary are Legitimately Part of Apostolic Tradition

Dave Armstrong vs. Dr. James White

(The following dialogue took place in June 1996 on Dr. James White’s Sola Scriptura discussion list.)

ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ201.HTM

 

[Mary3]

JesusIsTheWay:

I’m Breaking my response into a few different responses to cover a few points…

But the problem as I see it is that the only way to the Father is through Jesus… How can you pray directly to God when Jesus is the Mediator?

It is Jesus Himself who taught us to pray directly to God, as in “Our Father, who art in Heaven…”.

 

[Mary3]

JesusIsTheWay:

Read John 5:28-29

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

This parallels the teachings in Revelations about the Resurrection of the saved and the second death…

Speaking of Revelations, how do you explain these passages?:

Rev 4: 4 “Surrounding the throne I saw twenty-four other thrones on which twenty-four elders sat, dressed in white garments and with gold crowns on their heads.”

Rev 12: 1,5 “A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and on her head a crown of twleve stars…She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.”

Don’t these indicate to you that there are people who have passed from this life into heaven and that one of them is Jesus’ mother?

 

[agname]

Irenaeus (Note: Irenaeus was taught by Polycarp
…who had himself been a disciple of St. John the Evangelist):

“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” (Against Heresies, V:19,1(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:547)

Athanasius:
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Homily of the Papyrus of Turin,71:216(ante AD 373),in MCF,106

Peter Chrysologus:
The Virgin received Salvation so that she may give it back to the centuries." Sermon 140(ante AD 450),in MIRA,16

Theoteknos of Livias:
“Raised to heaven, she remains for the human race an unconquerable rampart, interceding for us before her Son and God.” Assumption 291(ante AD 560),in THEO,187

Andrew of Crete:
“O, how marvelous it is! She acts as a mediatrix between the loftiness of God and the lowliness of the flesh, and becomes Mother of the Creator.” Homily 1 on Mary’s Nativity(ante AD 740),in MCF,398

 

[agname]

John of Damascene:
“We today also remain near you, O Lady. Yes, I repeat, O Lady, Mother of God and Virgin. We bind our souls to your hope, as to a most firm and totally unbreakable anchor, consecrating to you mind, soul, body, and all our being and honoring you, as much as we can, with psalms, hymns, and spiritual canticles.” Homily 1 on the Dormition,14(ante AD 749),in MCF,408

Ambrose Autpert:
“Let us entrust ourselves with all our soul’s affection to the intercession of the Blessed Virgin: let us all, with all our strength, beg her patronage, that, at the moment when on earth we surround her with our suppliant homage, she herself may deign in heaven to commend us with fervent prayer. For without any doubt she who merited to bring ransom for those who needed deliverance, can more than all the saints benefit by her favor those who have received deliverance” Assumption of the Virgin, (ante AD 778)PL 39:2134,in THEO,188

Anselm:
“The Mother of God is our mother. May the good mother ask and beg for us, may she request and obtain what is good for us.” Oration 7(ante AD 1109),in THEO,188

Bernard:
"O whoever you may be who feel yourself on the tide of this world drifting in storms and tempests rather than treading firm ground, turn not your eyes from the effulgence of this star, unless you wish to be submerged … if she holds you, you do not fall, if she protects you, you have no fear; with her to lead you, you tire not; with her favour, you will reach your goal, conscious thus within yourself how rightly the word was spoken: ‘And the Virgin’s name was Mary’ " Homily 2:17,Respice stellam(ante AD 1153),in THEO,76

 

[Lorarose]

Here is my understanding of the history surrounding the Assumption - correct me if you see errors. Also - anyone who may have a link concerning this topic - please post it!

I have read that 11 of the apostles were with Mary when she died.
They put her body in a coffin, placed the body in the tomb, and the tomb was sealed (in the Church of Jerusalem)

Thomas arrived afterwards - and requested that he be allowed to pay his respects - that he enter the tomb and pray by the coffin.

They opened the seal, and when they entered the tomb the coffin was open, and the body was gone. Mary’s clothing remained in the coffin.

The apostles decided among themselves that Jesus had taken His mother to heaven.
They sealed the tomb again, and did not announce this miracle.
The Church of Jerusalem remained silent for close to 4 centuries.

Later - when a church council was being planned - the host city (I forgot the name) was in the process of finishing a church built in honor of Mary. They thought they might try to request from the Church of Jerusalem the honor of receiving Mary’s body to rest in this new church.

As I understand it - the response to this request from the Church of Jerusalem is the first historical reference we have concerning the Assumption.
The Church of Jerusalem acknowledged the request - but stated they were unable to fulfill it, as the body of Mary was not present in her tomb - but had been taken up to heaven by Jesus.
They did honor them with the gift of Mary’s clothing.​

Any corrections/additions from any of you?