Mary, Mary, Mary....why, why, why

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Kliska said:
I can only provide hearsay, but it is Catholic hearsay (meaning it came from Catholics); in some more native regions of Central or South America, the line was crossed. From the “outside” of the CC, and as a student of human nature, it isn’t hard to, at the very least, to imagine the line being crossed by those in the church. I don’t think anyone is claiming here in the thread that the RC officially endorses that or pushes it.

That wasn’t what his question was, though.
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To know that someone has crossed the line into worship you would have to know their heart and nobody knows that. Only God. Mere observation is not proof of worship. Hearsay is not proof either.

I’m the OP, I’m posing the question to everyone, why wouldn’t they?
 
SAVINGRACE said:
To know that someone has crossed the line into worship you would have to know their heart and nobody knows that. Only God. Mere observation is not proof of worship. Hearsay is not proof either.
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The RCC leadership hierarchy (priest, bishop, pope, even spiritual director) could make that call though, couldn’t they? Pastorally speaking?

Hearsay isn’t necessarily proof which is why I labelled it that in my post. However, hearsay can possibly lead to proof, but at the time I didn’t ask for an “official” source, so I can’t (and didn’t) point anyone in that direction.
 
Tommy999 said:
However, I would feel much more comfortable knowing what boundaries and constraints exist in our relationship with Mary and the saints so that the faithful doesn’t overstep those bounds.
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Hi Tommy. I don’t have a link, but I know from my History of the Church course back in college that St. Francis of Assisi had to correct some of his followers wrt their Marian ideas.

P.S. I realize you don’t believe that the angels and saints in heaven can hear us, but do yu accept that they pray for us?
 
Kliska said:
The RCC leadership hierarchy (priest, bishop, pope, even spiritual director) could make that call though, couldn’t they? Pastorally speaking?

Hearsay isn’t necessarily proof which is why I labelled it that in my post. However, hearsay can possibly lead to proof, but at the time I didn’t ask for an “official” source, so I can’t (and didn’t) point anyone in that direction.
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I guess what I’m saying is that worship comes from the heart, standing in Church reciting lines doesn’t make it worship just as observing someone praying to Our Lady is not worship.

You would need to be able to read the human heart and nobody can. Also, in the Catholic Church “worship” entails several things which simply praying to Our Lady doesn’t cover that definition. Priests are usually not privy to people personal activities unless they confess.

The Church has warned Catholics against visiting certain places where Marian visions are “claimed” as it has against Medjugore in former Yugoslavia. Once the full investigation is done and the Church officially recommends it then their advice is for Catholics to stay away. That said, people are free to heed or ignore that advice.
 
Tommy999 said:
Hi exnihilo,
What you say makes sense. However, I would feel much more comfortable knowing what boundaries and constraints exist in our relationship with Mary and the saints so that the faithful doesn’t overstep those bounds. Just curious if those bounds are stated somewhere in the Catechism.

Otherwise, to me it sounds like a potential spiritual free-for-all in which some of the faithful might go to Mary as if she were a goddess (honorary 4th member of the Holy Trinity) who directly answers our prayers herself (bypassing the Lord) instead of a being the holy mother of our Lord who also serves as a willing intercessor for us in prayer to Jesus and God the Father. I am becoming more comfortable with the latter but could never be comfortable with the former.
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There are boundaries but I’m not sure they are clarified in the catechism. I know the catechism does discuss the worship due God alone.

I’ve spoken with cradle Catholics who did unfortunately have an under appreciation for Jesus. This wasn’t from following Church teaching or even paying attention at Mass. It was the unfortunate result of them not receiving good instruction. So I don’t think your fears are entirely unfounded. But people get things wrong in the practice of Christianity. Many sections of the Epistles are written to correct errors and this is in the very beginning. Many Church councils have been called to correct error.
 
The Collyridians were an early “Marian” cult that deified Mary. It is believed that early Muslims and Mohammed himself may have interacted with this group, since the Quran seems to attribute Mary into its treatise against the Christian belief in the Most Holy Trinity:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT

church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/12/collyridian.html?m=1

ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodict.html?term=Collyridians

This cult was vehemently opposed by the Church in no uncertain terms.
 
Kliska said:
I can only provide hearsay, but it is Catholic hearsay (meaning it came from Catholics); in some more native regions of Central or South America, the line was crossed.
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I think the line is crossed quite a lot in our own society. Mary is just one possibility among many, and to me it seems like the obvious one would be money (I’m not even sure if I’ve encountered any cases at all where it was about Mary).
 
Peter_J said:
Hi Tommy. I don’t have a link, but I know from my History of the Church course back in college that St. Francis of Assisi had to correct some of his followers wrt their Marian ideas.

P.S. I realize you don’t believe that the angels and saints in heaven can hear us, but do yu accept that they pray for us?
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Hi Peter J,
This whole subject I find quite interesting and yet confusing at the same time. I believe that the angels and saints in heaven can and do pray for us to the extent that God allows them to see and hear us, but it is unclear to me to what that extent is. However, I believe they are the cloud of witnesses the Bible speaks of in Hebrews 12:1.
 
SyroMalankara said:
The Collyridians were an early “Marian” cult that deified Mary. It is believed that early Muslims and Mohammed himself may have interacted with this group, since the Quran seems to attribute Mary into its treatise against the Christian belief in the Most Holy Trinity:

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collyridianism

ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/COLLYRID.TXT

church-discipline.blogspot.com/2008/12/collyridian.html?m=1

ccel.org/ccel/wace/biodict.html?term=Collyridians

This cult was vehemently opposed by the Church in no uncertain terms.
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Thanks for sharing that info, SyroMalankara. I am also glad to hear that the Church vehemently opposed it.
 
exnihilo said:
There are boundaries but I’m not sure they are clarified in the catechism. I know the catechism does discuss the worship due God alone.

I’ve spoken with cradle Catholics who did unfortunately have an under appreciation for Jesus. This wasn’t from following Church teaching or even paying attention at Mass. It was the unfortunate result of them not receiving good instruction. So I don’t think your fears are entirely unfounded. But people get things wrong in the practice of Christianity. Many sections of the Epistles are written to correct errors and this is in the very beginning. Many Church councils have been called to correct error.
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Thanks for sharing that, exnihilo. I think it all goes back to proper catechesis as others have alluded to.
 
Tommy999 said:
Hi Peter J,
This whole subject I find quite interesting and yet confusing at the same time. I believe that the angels and saints in heaven can and do pray for us to the extent that God allows them to see and hear us, but it is unclear to me to what that extent is. However, I believe they are the cloud of witnesses the Bible speaks of in Hebrews 12:1.
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OK, I think I understand what you’re saying.

Kind of like how I could pray for “all the people in Russia” even though I know little about most of them.
 
Tommy999 said:
Hi Peter J,
This whole subject I find quite interesting and yet confusing at the same time. I believe that the angels and saints in heaven can and do pray for us to the extent that God allows them to see and hear us, but it is unclear to me to what that extent is. However, I believe they are the cloud of witnesses the Bible speaks of in Hebrews 12:1.
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The extent is limitless. Let me attempt to explain. 🙂

How extensive is the power of the Holy Spirit? Limitless, yes? What wonders did Jesus promise his followers would do after he had ascended to the Father? Greater things than even he had done while with us. Why could Jesus make such a promise to frail human beings? Because it is not in our own power that we do any work of God. So the question is, what limitation of time and place did Our Lord put on his promise? The answer is: none. 🙂

If we are all one body, living and deceased, those deceased who stand in the presence of God are fully at one with him in all things. They exist outside of our time and space. To them every moment is now. They aren’t listening to millions of voices in their heads like the Borg, they are receiving our prayers as if they were the only ones being prayed. They are doing this through the power of the Holy Spirit which Christ gave to us when we were sealed with the Holy Spirit at baptism. Those in heaven have fully realized this power. Everything they do is completely in line with God’s will for they cannot violate his will. So, everything the saints and angels do they do at God’s command and in his power–which is limitless. The only reservation is what God decrees they should/should not do. Does that make sense?
 
To Tommy 999, and All who are interested,

Some years ago I read a description of Mary and I thought it was so good that I retained it in my memory.

"Here it is: (paraphrased)

Mary is like a clear pane of glass (no smudges) that allows the Light of the Blessed Trinity to shine through.Mary is nothing, and she knows it. She knows that all the grace she has comes from the Lord. He made her that way because she is the vessel chosen and prepared by the Lord to bring the Incarnation of the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity to us, …Our Savior. He designed His own mother, not only for Himself, but for all of us."

With her free will she grew in faith, hope, and love, and suffered much anguish during Jesus’ trials and horrific sufferings.

And He gave her to us at the foot of the cross.

I hope that helps.

Peace,

Dorothy
 
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