Mary, Mary, Mary....why, why, why

[SAVINGRACE]

This video is for those of you who don’t understand why Catholics/Orthodox revere Mary or are considering converting but don’t get the Marian doctrines or what her exact role is or why she is important at all apart from Christs’s mother.

Some of you may be aware of my conversion story, I had a personal encounter with our Lady when I was a lapsed protestant/atheist in my first year at university. I was in RCIA by my third year at university, however I still doubted I would convert due to the Mary factor. I just didn’t get it.

Below is the 10 minute video I stumbled across in the millions of youtube videos on Our Lady.

IT BLEW ME AWAY.

I watched it several times and all my doubts on Our Lady vanished. Mary is the mother of ALL christians, not just Catholics and Orthodox believers.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Peace and love to all.

I still think that video is the best one out there for those coming to the Catholic/Orthodox faith or seeking to understand more about why we revere Mary. It’s concise, easy to understand and scriptural.

I shared it to my RCIA facilitator and she uses it in her classes.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Yeah, she was my biggest hurdle, well her and cultural Catholics.

Now I see her for who she is, which is the Mother of the Church, the new Eve, mother of all Christians and intercessor for us.

The language Catholic apologists used to describe her was also unsettling to me. Saying she brings you to Christ or she points to Christ. When you are a good protestant Christian you don’t need anybody pointing you to Christ, he is already the center of their lives. So their language makes her seem so unnecessary from a non Catholic POV. Better to explain who she is via the OT typology. Then it really starts to make sense.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Yeah, she was my biggest hurdle, well her and cultural Catholics.

Now I see her for who she is, which is the Mother of the Church, the new Eve, mother of all Christians and intercessor for us.

The language Catholic apologists used to describe her was also unsettling to me. Saying she brings you to Christ or she points to Christ. When you are a good protestant Christian you don’t need anybody pointing you to Christ, he is already the center of their lives. So their language makes her seem so unnecessary from a non Catholic POV. Better to explain who she is via the OT typology. Then it really starts to make sense.

I couldn’t understand from other Catholics or my RCIA teacher. The video did it. What did you think of the video clip above?

 

[Lenten_ashes]

I couldn’t understand from other Catholics or my RCIA teacher. The video did it. What did you think of the video clip above?

The video did a really good job explaining the typology, imo. In language we can all understand.

 

[eatpraylove11]

Amen! Thanks for sharing

 

[po18guy]

Precisely. Just long enough to offer a Chaplet of divine Mercy while pondering.

 

[Edeline]

What an incredible video! Thanks for sharing.

It was the Blessed Virgin that first called me to Catholicism! It was through her guidance that I came to love Jesus, and while I think while it’s one thing to instinctively love her as our mother and intercessor, it’s incredibly useful to have someone explain and put into words what we already understand on a spiritual level (but cannot always articulate). This video explained her role perfectly, and the various parallels within the Bible were fascinating. It was only short, but I really feel like I’ve learnt something by watching it.

 

[Dorothy]

This video is for those of you who don’t understand why Catholics/Orthodox revere Mary or are considering converting but don’t get the Marian doctrines or what her exact role is or why she is important at all apart from Christs’s mother.

Some of you may be aware of my conversion story, I had a personal encounter with our Lady when I was a lapsed protestant/atheist in my first year at university. I was in RCIA by my third year at university, however I still doubted I would convert due to the Mary factor. I just didn’t get it.

Below is the 10 minute video I stumbled across in the millions of youtube videos on Our Lady.

IT BLEW ME AWAY.

I watched it several times and all my doubts on Our Lady vanished. Mary is the mother of ALL christians, not just Catholics and Orthodox believers.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Peace and love to all.

Great video! Thanks for sharing it. I especially liked the part about the Ark of the Covenant, as well as all the rest of the video!

 

[PluniaZ]

Wow. If I had to share one video with a protestant, it would be this one.

 

[Casilda]

I have only recently discovered some of these truths. This must be shared with our fallen away Catholic brethren and our Christian friends. Thank you!

 

[Lorenz_Michael]

Can understand that this would be very helpful in removing objections biblically and am glad it helps those who find Mary our mother an obstacle.But it’s not how most cradle Catholics i know see our holy mother or why we revere her, though it is pleasing to add the biblical support.
Probably they would look at me quite blankly if I told them Mary is the ark of the covenant, and even after explaining it so they wouldn’t be too impressed. It’s a bit like trying to read a biography written about one of your own parents, not everybody would want to.
For the most part we see her visually as portrayed in many icons, like our lady of perpetual succour, in portrayals of apparitions, like our lady of Lourdes and Fatima, in the touch, look and physical contact of sacrementals, in intercessionary prayer, especially the rosary and very strongly in songs of devotion, and also in statues, which we like to touch, though this may look like idolatry externally.
Not that rational biblical explanations are completely excluded, but they come a bit lower down the list of priorities and then as a pleasant addition rather than essential; which might explain why it’s not always easy to articulate our relationship rationally as it comes from a different more visceral place.
This seems much more like children will get to know their mother as they grow. We kind of take for granted our holy mother’s spiritual response as she forms us in ways we would find almost impossible to explain.
Can’t say this speaks for all cradle Catholics, but mainly for myself and quite a few of those I know, but by no means all of them. Many of my friends are recently taking interest in biblical explanations thanks converts/reverts like Scott Hahn and others, whose enthusiasm and insight is a breath of fresh air.

Nice thread, thanks.
michaEl?

 

[Tommy999]

Yeah, she was my biggest hurdle, well her and cultural Catholics.

Now I see her for who she is, which is the Mother of the Church, the new Eve, mother of all Christians and intercessor for us.

The language Catholic apologists used to describe her was also unsettling to me. Saying she brings you to Christ or she points to Christ. When you are a good protestant Christian you don’t need anybody pointing you to Christ, he is already the center of their lives. So their language makes her seem so unnecessary from a non Catholic POV. Better to explain who she is via the OT typology. Then it really starts to make sense.

I just watched the video and liked it. It helps put things into perspective from the Catholic POV and the typology is compelling. In my view, if Mary is viewed as a heavenly “prayer partner” to Christians along with being Jesus’ beloved mother, I could see myself asking her (and the saints) for their intercession in prayer and giving her more attention and reverence. I think I will pay her more attention and reverence regardless because I realize she deserves it.

However, part of me is also concerned about where in the Bible does it specifically say she and the saints can hear our prayers? I realize the Bible doesn’t specifically say that they *can’t *hear us, either, so I am a bit confused by this subject a little.

To me, the tried and true way to God is through Jesus Christ and there is plenty of biblical support for that, so that way to God does not confuse me at all.

If Mary and the saints can hear our prayers – and if Christians are supposed to seek their intercession, is it defined somewhere in Catholicism what limitations they have? Surely she is not omnipotent or omniscient like God and Christ and neither are the saints, correct? Otherwise, they would be divine and only God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are divine.

In other words, where do Catholics draw the line as to what Mary can do and can’t do? I assume Catholics already know where to draw the line, but for a lot of Protestants, it’s easier to focus on God the Father and Jesus and keep Mary and the saints at arm’s length and in a lesser status as holy humans who are now in the presence of God in heaven with the Lord but not much beyond that.

 

[exnihilo]

However, part of me is also concerned about where in the Bible does it specifically say she and the saints can hear our prayers? I realize the Bible doesn’t specifically say that they *can’t *hear us, either, so I am a bit confused by this subject a little.

To me, the tried and true way to God is through Jesus Christ and there is plenty of biblical support for that, so that way to God does not confuse me at all.

If Mary and the saints can hear our prayers – and if Christians are supposed to seek their intercession, is it defined somewhere in Catholicism what limitations they have? Surely she is not omnipotent or omniscient like God and Christ and neither are the saints, correct? Otherwise, they would be divine and only God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are divine.

In other words, where do Catholics draw the line as to what Mary can do and can’t do? I assume Catholics already know where to draw the line, but for a lot of Protestants, it’s easier to focus on God the Father and Jesus and keep Mary and the saints at arm’s length and in a lesser status as holy humans who are now in the presence of God in heaven with the Lord but not much beyond that.

The Book of Revelation portrays the Saints as offering up the prayers of those on Earth. I’d think they would have some knowledge of what they are doing. So I’d think they ‘hear’ us just as God and the Angels can hear us.

Yes the Blessed Virgin has limitations, but I don’t think we really know what they are. I understand your concern of divinizing Mary. But I don’t think hearing prayers does so. Christianity has always held that our goal is to become like God. Our mind and will should be like Gods. We strive in this life to turn ourselveves to God to be like God. After death we become even more like God. Divinization or theosis is taught in the Church from the earliest days. However, this does not mean that we become exactly like God. All creatures will forever depend on God at every moment for our existence. We will never be omnipotent because God ultimately has all the power we can only share in as much as He let’s us.

I understand the concern you have the if the Saints of the Blessed Virgin can hear prayers that makes them godlike. But if you really think about it we could say that anything we do even on Earth is godlike. In other words it is really an arbitrary distinction that is drawn to say that some things are godlike and others not. Is it not godlike to even hear prayers on Earth? Is it not godlike to have a rational mind? Genesis teaches we are created in God’s image. This means in our very nature we possess some attributes of God. This must be so because God is the source of everything. It isn’t as if human nature exists independently from God. Human nature is created by God and shares with God. This doesn’t make us God because we will never be self existing or omnipotent.

As a convert myself I understand your concerns. I think the biggest flaw in most Protestant theology is in not recognizing just how much God shares with us and how much more like God we will become when we die if we obtain Heaven. Just think about the bodies we will have. If we have bodies like Jesus we will be able to pass through walls! If our bodies can pass through walls then surely our intellect will be greatly increased and may be able to do things like hear all the prayers of those who ask our intercession.

 

[Tommy999]

The Book of Revelation portrays the Saints as offering up the prayers of those on Earth. I’d think they would have some knowledge of what they are doing. So I’d think they ‘hear’ us just as God and the Angels can hear us.

**Yes the Blessed Virgin has limitations, but I don’t think we really know what they are. I understand your concern of divinizing Mary. But I don’t think hearing prayers does so. **Christianity has always held that our goal is to become like God. Our mind and will should be like Gods. We strive in this life to turn ourselveves to God to be like God. After death we become even more like God. Divinization or theosis is taught in the Church from the earliest days. However, this does not mean that we become exactly like God. All creatures will forever depend on God at every moment for our existence. We will never be omnipotent because God ultimately has all the power we can only share in as much as He let’s us.

I understand the concern you have the if the Saints of the Blessed Virgin can hear prayers that makes them godlike. But if you really think about it we could say that anything we do even on Earth is godlike. In other words it is really an arbitrary distinction that is drawn to say that some things are godlike and others not. Is it not godlike to even hear prayers on Earth? Is it not godlike to have a rational mind? Genesis teaches we are created in God’s image. This means in our very nature we possess some attributes of God. This must be so because God is the source of everything. It isn’t as if human nature exists independently from God. Human nature is created by God and shares with God. This doesn’t make us God because we will never be self existing or omnipotent.

As a convert myself I understand your concerns. I think the biggest flaw in most Protestant theology is in not recognizing just how much God shares with us and how much more like God we will become when we die if we obtain Heaven. Just think about the bodies we will have. If we have bodies like Jesus we will be able to pass through walls! If our bodies can pass through walls then surely our intellect will be greatly increased and may be able to do things like hear all the prayers of those who ask our intercession.

Hi exnihilo,
What you say makes sense. However, I would feel much more comfortable knowing what boundaries and constraints exist in our relationship with Mary and the saints so that the faithful doesn’t overstep those bounds. Just curious if those bounds are stated somewhere in the Catechism.

Otherwise, to me it sounds like a potential spiritual free-for-all in which some of the faithful might go to Mary as if she were a goddess (honorary 4th member of the Holy Trinity) who directly answers our prayers herself (bypassing the Lord) instead of a being the holy mother of our Lord who also serves as a willing intercessor for us in prayer to Jesus and God the Father. I am becoming more comfortable with the latter but could never be comfortable with the former.

 

[Kay_Cee]

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

 

[cstheriot]

Awesome video!

slightly off topic, but if liked that video:
I would encourage you to look up Brant Pitre and his Jewish Roots works. Especially his book “Jesus and the Jewish roots of the Eucharist”. He does the same type thing in the video where he uses typology to study the Eucharist. It is awesome as well!

 

[Lenten_ashes]

However, part of me is also concerned about where in the Bible does it specifically say she and the saints can hear our prayers? I realize the Bible doesn’t specifically say that they *can’t *hear us, either, so I am a bit confused by this subject a little.

To me, the tried and true way to God is through Jesus Christ and there is plenty of biblical support for that, so that way to God does not confuse me at all.

If Mary and the saints can hear our prayers – and if Christians are supposed to seek their intercession, is it defined somewhere in Catholicism what limitations they have? Surely she is not omnipotent or omniscient like God and Christ and neither are the saints, correct? Otherwise, they would be divine and only God the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit are divine.

In other words, where do Catholics draw the line as to what Mary can do and can’t do? I assume Catholics already know where to draw the line, but for a lot of Protestants, it’s easier to focus on God the Father and Jesus and keep Mary and the saints at arm’s length and in a lesser status as holy humans who are now in the presence of God in heaven with the Lord but not much beyond that.

Hi Tommy.

I think the first thing that helped me along was the realization that the bible is not a manual or textbook with everything spelled out…As a non-Catholic I really wanted to believe this but it became apparent that it was not so. It’s true that the bible points to itself, but it also points to the Church (1 Tim 3:15) and to Sacred Tradition(2 Thess 2:15) OH NO, THE T WORD!!! lol. Hard for me to absorb this as a non Catholic because of Jesus harsh words for traditions of men. But when the NT is taken as a whole, textually, and we see what a vital role apostolic Tradition played in the early church(first 400 years), there’s just no other logical explanation there.

So we don’t see Saintly intercession clearly spelled out, but we do see enough scriptural evidence to assert that it is very likely they know what is going on here.

Let’s start with this:

Matthew 22:30New International Version (NIV)

30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

So we will be like the Angels in heaven. And the Angels in heaven are going into a frenzy when even one sinner repents:

Luke 15:10New International Version (NIV)

10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents

.”

Can you imagine being in heaven, walking side by side with angels…and they go into this big frenzy…and you say what is going on? And they say, sorry, cant tell you are just a Saint!!! LOL!!!

No, we will know what is going on there. As the NT says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. :

Hebrews 12:1New International Version (NIV)

12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us,

So now we have established knowledge, we need to understand the true definition of the Communion of Saints.

Basically, Jesus has one body, not one in heaven and one here, ONE, TOTAL. We are all connected through the body of Christ with Him as the head. The head of a person is the control center. If you stub your toe, it hurts because your head told you that it hurts. So all this stuff goes through the Lord Jesus, every bit of it. It is by no means excluding him or bypassing him. And if Jesus is the head, one can logically surmise that Mary must be the neck, since nobody on this planet was as close to Him as she was. She is the bridge between the OT and the NT. And we see her interceding at the wedding of Cana so there is a scriptural example.

As far as limitations, she is a created being. She cant save us, but she can be a powerful intercessor on our behalf. I know some of the language in our prayers scare people away, but it really needs to be properly understood.

Blessings

 

[pablope]

I just watched the video and liked it. It helps put things into perspective from the Catholic POV and the typology is compelling. In my view, if Mary is viewed as a heavenly “prayer partner” to Christians along with being Jesus’ beloved mother, I could see myself asking her (and the saints) for their intercession in prayer and giving her more attention and reverence. I think I will pay her more attention and reverence regardless because I realize she deserves it.

Well…I think you nailed it in the head…they are our prayer partners.

However, part of me is also concerned about where in the Bible does it specifically say she and the saints can hear our prayers? I realize the Bible doesn’t specifically say that they *can’t *

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy.

I think the first thing that helped me along was the realization that the bible is not a manual or textbook with everything spelled out…As a non-Catholic I really wanted to believe this but it became apparent that it was not so. It’s true that the bible points to itself, but it also points to the Church (1 Tim 3:15) and to Sacred Tradition(2 Thess 2:15) OH NO, THE T WORD!!! lol. Hard for me to absorb this as a non Catholic because of Jesus harsh words for traditions of men. But when the NT is taken as a whole, textually, and we see what a vital role apostolic Tradition played in the early church(first 400 years), there’s just no other logical explanation there.

So we don’t see Saintly intercession clearly spelled out, but we do see enough scriptural evidence to assert that it is very likely they know what is going on here.

Let’s start with this:

So we will be like the Angels in heaven. And the Angels in heaven are going into a frenzy when even one sinner repents:

.”

Can you imagine being in heaven, walking side by side with angels…and they go into this big frenzy…and you say what is going on? And they say, sorry, cant tell you are just a Saint!!! LOL!!!

No, we will know what is going on there. As the NT says we are surrounded by a great cloud of witnesses. :

So now we have established knowledge, we need to understand the true definition of the Communion of Saints.

Basically, Jesus has one body, not one in heaven and one here, ONE, TOTAL. We are all connected through the body of Christ with Him as the head. The head of a person is the control center. If you stub your toe, it hurts because your head told you that it hurts. So all this stuff goes through the Lord Jesus, every bit of it. It is by no means excluding him or bypassing him. And if Jesus is the head, one can logically surmise that Mary must be the neck, since nobody on this planet was as close to Him as she was. She is the bridge between the OT and the NT. And we see her interceding at the wedding of Cana so there is a scriptural example.

As far as limitations, she is a created being. She cant save us, but she can be a powerful intercessor on our behalf. I know some of the language in our prayers scare people away, but it really needs to be properly understood.

Blessings

Thank you, Lenten Ashes. As usual, your explanations and analogies are very helpful. I have come to believe and accept that the Virgin Mary can be a powerful intercessor on our behalf. A Catholic once told me that Mary prays for all of us whether we know or even ask for it. If that’s the case, I am fine with it.

What I am uncomfortable with is if people pray to her as if she was divine and can grant them what they ask for in prayer as if she is the source of it herself.

For example, the salvation or healing of a friend or loved one. Let’s say someone prays tor the salvation of a loved one who doesn’t know God and is living a criminal life of some sort (drug dealer, etc) and asks Mary and/or the saints to pray for the salvation of that person. I’ve grown to a point in my spiritual journey where I can accept and believe that is a good thing to pray for the intercession of the saints for that person as well as to ask my fellow Christians here on earth to do likewise.

After all, Mary is like a heavenly prayer partner in that respect, if I understand the Catholic viewpoint on that. Presumably, her prayers (being that she was holy and is currently in the presence of the Lord), would be very efficacious.

However, if the person prays to Mary and asks Mary to save or heal ther loved one as if she herself had the divine power to heal or save that person instead of her being a conduit to Christ who is the true source of salvation and healing, I have a problem with that because Mary is not divine. I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I have derailed this thread. I didn’t mean to if I did.

Once again, that was a very nice and effective video and most Protestants would benefit from it. I know I sure did.

 

[pablope]

Hi Tommy.

So we don’t see Saintly intercession clearly spelled out, but we do see enough scriptural evidence to assert that it is very