Mary, Mary, Mary....why, why, why

[Tommy999]

Hi and thanks, Pablope. I will read the articles you provided. I must say you have been a constant companion of mine along my spiritual journey since I joined CAF back in 2014 and I thank you for that. Just wanted to say that I appreciate you and thank the Lord for you. May He bless you now and always, my friend in Christ.

 

[Reepicheep]

Here is a related question.
At the end of that video there is a link.

www dpt truefaith dot TV

It leads to a site that offers many videos.

Does anyone here know this site? Is it a reliable Catholic site?

Because if it is I want to watch more videos; but I would like first to make sure. Not every site that calls itself Catholic is a reliable teacher of doctrine.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Thank you, Lenten Ashes. As usual, your explanations and analogies are very helpful. I have come to believe and accept that the Virgin Mary can be a powerful intercessor on our behalf. A Catholic once told me that Mary prays for all of us whether we know or even ask for it. If that’s the case, I am fine with it.

What I am uncomfortable with is if people pray to her as if she was divine and can grant them what they ask for in prayer as if she is the source of it herself.

For example, the salvation or healing of a friend or loved one. Let’s say someone prays tor the salvation of a loved one who doesn’t know God and is living a criminal life of some sort (drug dealer, etc) and asks Mary and/or the saints to pray for the salvation of that person. I’ve grown to a point in my spiritual journey where I can accept and believe that is a good thing to pray for the intercession of the saints for that person as well as to ask my fellow Christians here on earth to do likewise.

After all, Mary is like a heavenly prayer partner in that respect, if I understand the Catholic viewpoint on that. Presumably, her prayers (being that she was holy and is currently in the presence of the Lord), would be very efficacious.

However, if the person prays to Mary and asks Mary to save or heal ther loved one as if she herself had the divine power to heal or save that person instead of her being a conduit to Christ who is the true source of salvation and healing, I have a problem with that because Mary is not divine. I hope that makes sense. Sorry if I have derailed this thread. I didn’t mean to if I did.

Once again, that was a very nice and effective video and most Protestants would benefit from it. I know I sure did.

Hi Tommy.

No, you aren’t derailing the thread. Thank you for the questions and concerns. Gives Catholics a chance to clear up misconceptions.

I totally get your concerns with Mary and folks getting the wrong idea about her. I live in a area with a very large Catholic population. And at times you can just watch the news and see people crediting the blessed Mother for finding their lost child or granting them something else. Now if they mean we asked for her prayers and God delivered our child and we thank Mary for her powerful prayers, then that is Orthodox Catholic understanding(for lack of a better term). But if they mean Mary is a 4th person of the Trinity and can personally answer our prayers, then they are heretical and they need to repent. But only they know what they truly mean, I suppose. There are Catholics who are cultural/nominal and are in serious need of Catechesis.

 

[Lenten_ashes]

Great post, LA.

 

[brian_custer]

absolutely amazing video

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy.

No, you aren’t derailing the thread. Thank you for the questions and concerns. Gives Catholics a chance to clear up misconceptions.

I totally get your concerns with Mary and folks getting the wrong idea about her. I live in a area with a very large Catholic population. And at times you can just watch the news and see people crediting the blessed Mother for finding their lost child or granting them something else. Now if they mean we asked for her prayers and God delivered our child and we thank Mary for her powerful prayers, then that is Orthodox Catholic understanding(for lack of a better term). But if they mean Mary is a 4th person of the Trinity and can personally answer our prayers, then they are heretical and they need to repent. But only they know what they truly mean, I suppose. There are Catholics who are cultural/nominal and are in serious need of Catechesis.

Thanks again for the clarification, Lenten Ashes. I am coming to terms with what you describe as the Orthodox Catholic understanding of Mary’s role and assent to it.

Just wanted to make sure there were parameters around her role in Catholicism. It sounds like there are parameters, but the poorly catechized may not always be aware of them. I hope those folks are in the minority. Take care and thanks again.

 

[PJM]

This video is for those of you who don’t understand why Catholics/Orthodox revere Mary or are considering converting but don’t get the Marian doctrines or what her exact role is or why she is important at all apart from Christs’s mother.

Some of you may be aware of my conversion story, I had a personal encounter with our Lady when I was a lapsed protestant/atheist in my first year at university. I was in RCIA by my third year at university, however I still doubted I would convert due to the Mary factor. I just didn’t get it.

Below is the 10 minute video I stumbled across in the millions of youtube videos on Our Lady.

IT BLEW ME AWAY.

I watched it several times and all my doubts on Our Lady vanished. Mary is the mother of ALL christians, not just Catholics and Orthodox believers.

youtube.com/watch?v=kUdYeYy3NQA

Peace and love to all.

I still think that video is the best one out there for those coming to the Catholic/Orthodox faith or seeking to understand more about why we revere Mary. It’s concise, easy to understand and scriptural.

I shared it to my RCIA facilitator and she uses it in her classes.

AWESOME

Thanks

Patrick

 

[SyroMalankara]

Thanks again for the clarification, Lenten Ashes. I am coming to terms with what you describe as the Orthodox Catholic understanding of Mary’s role and assent to it.

Just wanted to make sure there were parameters around her role in Catholicism. It sounds like there are parameters, but the poorly catechized may not always be aware of them. I hope those folks are in the minority. Take care and thanks again.

Hi Tommy,

I just wanted to add another analogy here, regarding overstepping. Say an improperly catechized, but well-intentioned individual DID overstep, not out of insincerity but lack of knowing – will God be offended? Will He even consider it sinful? I don’t think so. I think of it like this (sorry for another analogy): Your son/daughter has a school project, you see the teacher’s requirements, you help your child do the work, sometimes you do more than the child. At the end of the day, the child gets most of the credit, but you know that he/she did it through you. Are you jealous that the child got some or all of the credit? Did you need acknowledgment from the child’s teacher? No. Our Father in heaven will be happy we are graced and blessed, and not at all upset that some/all/most of the credit may have gone to the intercessor who is entirely joined to Him in Spirit.

 

[Mammoths]

Can understand that this would be very helpful in removing objections biblically and am glad it helps those who find Mary our mother an obstacle.But it’s not how most cradle Catholics i know see our holy mother or why we revere her, though it is pleasing to add the biblical support.
Probably they would look at me quite blankly if I told them Mary is the ark of the covenant, and even after explaining it so they wouldn’t be too impressed. It’s a bit like trying to read a biography written about one of your own parents, not everybody would want to.
For the most part we see her visually as portrayed in many icons, like our lady of perpetual succour, in portrayals of apparitions, like our lady of Lourdes and Fatima, in the touch, look and physical contact of sacrementals, in intercessionary prayer, especially the rosary and very strongly in songs of devotion, and also in statues, which we like to touch, though this may look like idolatry externally.
Not that rational biblical explanations are completely excluded, but they come a bit lower down the list of priorities and then as a pleasant addition rather than essential; which might explain why it’s not always easy to articulate our relationship rationally as it comes from a different more visceral place.
This seems much more like children will get to know their mother as they grow. We kind of take for granted our holy mother’s spiritual response as she forms us in ways we would find almost impossible to explain.
Can’t say this speaks for all cradle Catholics, but mainly for myself and quite a few of those I know, but by no means all of them. Many of my friends are recently taking interest in biblical explanations thanks converts/reverts like Scott Hahn and others, whose enthusiasm and insight is a breath of fresh air.

Nice thread, thanks.
michaEl?

I wonder if that describes the difference between how two children might see their natural mother. One, raised in their birth family and the other, repatriated after childhood estrangement. the mother loves them both every day, but only the one raised at home experienced it. they have to have it explained to them in terms they can understand.

She carried you in the womb
she was there at your birth
she prayed for you every day when you were gone

I’ll have to watch the video and see what I think.

 

[Tommy999]

Hi Tommy,

I just wanted to add another analogy here, regarding overstepping. Say an improperly catechized, but well-intentioned individual DID overstep, not out of insincerity but lack of knowing – will God be offended? Will He even consider it sinful? I don’t think so. I think of it like this (sorry for another analogy): Your son/daughter has a school project, you see the teacher’s requirements, you help your child do the work, sometimes you do more than the child. At the end of the day, the child gets most of the credit, but you know that he/she did it through you. Are you jealous that the child got some or all of the credit? Did you need acknowledgment from the child’s teacher? No. Our Father in heaven will be happy we are graced and blessed, and not at all upset that some/all/most of the credit may have gone to the intercessor who is entirely joined to Him in Spirit.

You provide some good food for thought, SyroMalankara. I hadn’t thought of it that way before. It makes more sense that it may not be as big of a deal when we know the two are so connected to one another, kind of like in the example you gave with the child and parent. .

However, at the same time, I am concerned more about the blurring of the the line between divine and human. For example, I think the Apostle Peter corrected those followers who came and bowed before him as he did in Acts 10:25-26 when Cornelius fell at St Peter’s feet to worship him. Peter corrected him and told him to stand up because he was just a man. I think that is an important distinction.

However, as you mentioned, if a person doesn’t know any better they shouldn’t be punished, but I think they should be corrected going forward.

 

[Della]

You provide some good food for thought, SyroMalankara. I hadn’t thought of it that way before. It makes more sense that it may not be as big of a deal when we know the two are so connected to one another, kind of like in the example you gave with the child and parent. .

However, at the same time, I am concerned more about the blurring of the the line between divine and human. For example, I think the Apostle Peter corrected those followers who came and bowed before him as he did in Acts 10:25-26 when Cornelius fell at St Peter’s feet to worship him. Peter corrected him and told him to stand up because he was just a man. I think that is an important distinction.

However, as you mentioned, if a person doesn’t know any better they shouldn’t be punished, but I think they should be corrected going forward.

The important distinction isn’t in Peter being a man, rather in Peter being a man still living as a member of the Church Militant, and so still subject to the temptation of pride. Those in heaven cannot be tempted to put themselves ahead of God for they are entirely with and in God. In all they do they are totally aligned with God’s will and so cannot sin. They can pray for us, and aid us, as God directs them to and can do nothing apart from him. It’s why we Catholics know we are not worshiping man when we pray to a saint because we know that saint is completely in God and of God. The saints in heaven share in the divine glory and divine power–but that glory and that power was given to them by God. We understand that, you see.

 

[Mammoths]

There is a great gulf between powerful enough and smart enough to hear the prayer requests of 7 billion people and omnipotence and omniscience.

 

[Tommy999]

The important distinction isn’t in Peter being a man, rather in Peter being a man still living as a member of the Church Militant, and so still subject to the temptation of pride. Those in heaven cannot be tempted to put themselves ahead of God for they are entirely with and in God. In all they do they are totally aligned with God’s will and so cannot sin. They can pray for us, and aid us, as God directs them to and can do nothing apart from him. It’s why we Catholics know we are not worshiping man when we pray to a saint because we know that saint is completely in God and of God. The saints in heaven share in the divine glory and divine power–but that glory and that power was given to them by God. We understand that, you see.

I still don’t think God meant for humans to worship any saint in an ‘adoration’ sense regardless of whether they are on earth or in heaven. Perhaps in an ‘intercessory’ sense, yes, but in an ‘adoration’ sense, no. That is my take on it and that’s what I understood Lenten Ashes to say, as well.

Nice communicating with you again, Della.

 

[cstheriot]

I still don’t think God meant for humans to worship any saint in an ‘adoration’ sense regardless of whether they are on earth or in heaven. In an ‘intercessory’ sense, yes, but in an ‘adoration’ sense, no. That is my take on it.

I don’t think we should “adore” anyone but God. I think “Honor” is the better word. We honor Mary and the Saints and ask for their intercession to God on our behalfs.

 

[Della]

I still don’t think God meant for humans to worship any saint in an ‘adoration’ sense regardless of whether they are on earth or in heaven. Perhaps in an ‘intercessory’ sense, yes, but in an ‘adoration’ sense, no. That is my take on it and that’s what I understood Lenten Ashes to say, as well.

Yes indeed. Veneration (dulia) is what we give to the saints, and hyper-veneration (hyperdulia) to Mary. But adoration belongs to God alone.

Nice communicating with you again, Della.

:tiphat:

 

[Kliska]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the CC has stepped in when people have elevated Mary to the level of the divine. It is clearly outlined in the CCC that devotion to her is a good thing, but adoration is reserved for God alone.

For example; 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Studying this from the outside of the CC, I think that the best pointing to the “line” of separation is that you don’t have to foster a devotion to Mary in the form of private prayers to her or any other saint. You can, outside of Mass, direct your pleas, prayers, etc… directly to God alone if you want.

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus said. “Can you drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I am baptized with?”

After Jesus was Baptised, A voice from Heaven said “This is my son the Beloved” " listen to him." (Heaven eventually is our home)

When he was about to breath his last on the Cross he said “this is your son” and “here is your mother” (John then took her to his home)

Just some thoughts to ponder.

MJ

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Thank you all for your responses. I do think I was led to that video as I found it two days from finishing the RCIA course and at that stage I had pretty much decided I was not going to convert because I couldn’t fully accept Mary and her role. Yes, even after my personal encounter with her I still doubted, how awful is that?

In my experience RCIA facilitators need to do a better job in explaining the faith not only to new converts but also to cradle catholics.

I’m glad you enjoyed the video.

 

[SAVINGRACE]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but the CC has stepped in when people have elevated Mary to the level of the divine. It is clearly outlined in the CCC that devotion to her is a good thing, but adoration is reserved for God alone.

For example; 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Studying this from the outside of the CC, I think that the best pointing to the “line” of separation is that you don’t have to foster a devotion to Mary in the form of private prayers to her or any other saint. You can, outside of Mass, direct your pleas, prayers, etc… directly to God alone if you want.

Can you provide an example of when the Church stepped in when someone had elevated Our Lady to the level of divine? When we speak of Worship in the Catholic Church we are talking about the Mass, which is devoted to Christ. I don’t know any Catholic that worships Mary.

You are right, you don’t have to foster a devotion to Mary but why wouldn’t you? She was the First Christian and is the perfect model for a christian. She is not like any other Saint, the Kingdom of Heaven is just that…a Kingdom…not a democracy. Our Lady is the Queen of Heaven Just as the Kings of old Israel obeyed their mothers and assumed the position of Queen, when Our Lady requests something of her son, he will not refuse.

 

[Kliska]

Can you provide an example of when the Church stepped in when someone had elevated Our Lady to the level of divine?

I can only provide hearsay, but it is Catholic hearsay (meaning it came from Catholics); in some more native regions of Central or South America, the line was crossed. From the “outside” of the CC, and as a student of human nature, it isn’t hard to, at the very least, to imagine the line being crossed by those in the church. I don’t think anyone is claiming here in the thread that the RC officially endorses that or pushes it.

You are right, you don’t have to foster a devotion to Mary but why wouldn’t you?

That wasn’t what his question was, though.