Mary Never Truly Died

[Vico]

Got it. But, as old as I am I don’t go back to the Reformation.
The SS guys I run into are of the modern type, Bible-Belters. (Many of them think that the KJV was handed down from heaven in 1611.)

To clarify, I try not to use the word “literal” or its ilk. Slippery slope and all that.

Let’s take two examples, one now and one later if you’re still interested.
A prophecy of David, at Ps 37:29:
NJB, “but the upright shall have the land for their own, where they shall live forever.”
NAB, “The just shall possess the land and dwell in it forever.”

Several words are different, so we’re in a bind if we believe in a ‘every word literal Bible’ But most literate people would agree they convey the same thought, so God has taught us something. In fact, I’ve seen Bibles that say “earth” rather than “land”; still the same. Do you agree?

1610 Douay:

1. But the iuft shal inherite the land: and shal inhabite for euer and euer vpon it.

Latin Vulgate:

29 iusti hereditabunt terram et habitabunt in saeculum super eam

 

[dougp]

I’m not sure I get the point of your reply. Clarify, please?

 

[Vico]

I’m not sure I get the point of your reply. Clarify, please?

The translated languages and their meanings at the time it was written can be different. It could mean what is not obvious: specifically the land of Canaan, or Israel, for it is the promised land (Gen 12:7), but by analogy, heaven.

 

[dougp]

First, do you agree that terrum and land have the same meaning as my quotes of it? I don’t see “heaven” in any of them.
Also, please compare v. 11 with Mt 5:4 (5:5 in some Bibles). Jesus’ famous line about the meek or the poor was taken directly from the Psalm.
And, isn’t the idea of a cleansed earth, filled with only the righteous, in line with Yahweh’s stated purpose at Gen 1:28?

 

[dougp]

Hey! I’m back! I have trouble finding my way through longer threads on my smartphone.
Yes, CCC does say “word”. I’m not trying to hide anything. AND, “scripture” means writing, as in manuscript or scriptorium.

But we have different ideas about “word”. To me the “word of God” is what I have in writing from the inspired writers. When I read that Philip expounded Isaiah to the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8) I take the account as inspired, although part of it is a record of a conversation. But, the conversation centers on the Bible, using the Bible to teach itself. 8:35, NJB. “Starting, therefore, with this text of scripture [Isa 53] Philip proceeded to explain the good news [Gospel] of Jesus to him.”

Now, we come to the oral or “proclaimed” word of the Church. I enjoy history as well as the Bible, and I very much enjoy reading the Catholic Encyclopedia at newadvent.org. Its writers were remarkably, though not completely free of bias and were skilled researchers.
Here’s one example, under Apollonius of Ephesus: "At all events, he recalls the tradition according to which Our Lord had advised the Apostles not to go far from jerusalem during the twelve years immediately following his ascension, a tradition known to Clement of Alexandria from the apocryphal ‘Praedicato Petri’.
Compare now the Word of Jesus at Acts 1:4 ff., in re Pentecost. 10 days, not 12 years.
Clement was not that far from the days of the apostles; how could he have confused the wheat and the chaff?

 

[ZMystiCat]

To me the “word of God” is what I have in writing from the inspired writers.

I get that, but your original comment was commenting on what the Catholic Church meant in CCC 86, and I thought it better to point out that “Word of God” does not mean the same in Catholicism as it does in Protestantism.

Here’s one example, under Apollonius of Ephesus: "At all events, he recalls the tradition according to which Our Lord had advised the Apostles not to go far from jerusalem during the twelve years immediately following his ascension, a tradition known to Clement of Alexandria from the apocryphal ‘Praedicato Petri’.
Compare now the Word of Jesus at Acts 1:4 ff., in re Pentecost. 10 days, not 12 years.

The quote itself does not expand on what the exhortation was. You’ve simply assumed that it is referencing the same exhortation. Of course, though, the existence of one exhortation does not preclude another.

 

[Vico]

First, do you agree that terrum and land have the same meaning as my quotes of it? I don’t see “heaven” in any of them.
Also, please compare v. 11 with Mt 5:4 (5:5 in some Bibles). Jesus’ famous line about the meek or the poor was taken directly from the Psalm.
And, isn’t the idea of a cleansed earth, filled with only the righteous, in line with Yahweh’s stated purpose at Gen 1:28?

No, I think Earth and land are different. However, I can see it meaning New Earth as in the Promised Land analogy.

 

[dougp]

To Christians the important exhortation is the Great Commission, at Mt 28:19,20. That, and earlier comments like Mt 24:14 lead me to believe that the “12 years” is wrong on its face.
Confirmation: Jesus died in 33 C.E. Circa 36 we find Peter in coastal Joppa, thence to Caesarea and Cornelius. That ‘third key’ opened Gentile areas like Syrian Antioch (Acts 11). And all this before the persecution of Saul’s time.
To me the “word of God” is what I have in writing from the inspired writers.
Perhaps you can tell me what were the two exhortations that I think you were referring to.

Background: I don’t have Internet service at my house, where I do most of my work. I do have a smartphone and unlimited data. That works for me EXCEPT I’m having the devil’s own time (can I say that here? ) keeping track of these longer threads. I think the autosave function is doing it.
So I’ll have to consider this an adequate response to your latest. I’ll be back.© Ahnold.

 

[Cirdan_XII]

Several words are different, so we’re in a bind if we believe in a ‘every word literal Bible’ But most literate people would agree they convey the same thought, so God has taught us something. In fact, I’ve seen Bibles that say “earth” rather than “land”; still the same. Do you agree?

In many languages, the words for earth and land are identical.

And even in English, although there are two separate words, there is considerable overlap in their meaning.

 

[Techno2000]

Elijah and Enoch were also taken up bodily into heaven while still alive, this is in the OT. Possibly the same happened to Moses

Well, according to some private revelations I read, she really did die by her own choice , because she wanted to go through the portal of death just like all people have to go through .

 

[thistle]

Confirmation: Jesus died in 33 C.E.

That is not confirmed. Not only do we not know the date of Jesus’ birth, we do not know the date of his death. We do not even know how old he was when he died. Scripture only says he started his public ministry about the age of 30. That could mean several years either side of 30. In short we cannot confirm he died in 33 AD.

 

[thistle]

Well, according to some private revelations I read, she really did die by her own choice , because she wanted to go through the portal of death just like all people have to go through .

As you know private revelations are not Church doctrine, even ones which are “approved”.
The Church does not teach whether Mary died or did not die before her Assumption. Catholics are free to believe either way.

 

[otjm]

I once had a Protestant minister get on my case about Mary. I asked him if he believed in the bible.

“Yes.”

Was what is in the bible true?

“Yes.”

I then looked at him and recited the Magnificat (I started saying the LOTH in 1964 - eventually some things get memorized).

I ended it by saying essentially the same thing - we as Catholics simply believe and profess what Mary said.

And that was the lat time he decided to challenge me.

 

[otjm]

Particularly if he was born in 6 BCE or BC, as a number of scholars seem to agree upon as a likely date.

 

[Techno2000]

Techno2000:

Well, according to some private revelations I read, she really did die by her own choice , because she wanted to go through the portal of death just like all people have to go through .

As you know private revelations are not Church doctrine, even ones which are “approved”.
The Church does not teach whether Mary died or did not die before her Assumption. Catholics are free to believe either way.

Ok…

 

[TK421]

I have a person I know that really has a hard time respecting catholism. He claims that we worship Mary even though I told him already we don’t. He claims that Mary death in Bible wasn’t how we Catholics believe it to be. How did Mary die in the Bible?

Mary’s death came well after the events in the book of Acts, therefore is not recorded, but it is tradition that Mary died a natural death and then was assumed into Heaven. This is called the Assumption or the Dormition.

 

[dougp]

Can you tell me please, who is the Queen of heaven?
From the Pope:
From Magisterium:
From scripture:

 

[dougp]

Paul says that the Jerusalem above is our mother. Gal 4:26.

Can you tell me please, who is Queen of heaven?
From the Pope:
From Magisterium:
From scripture:

 

[dougp]

Francis, I left a magisterium/oral tradition/scripture question elsewhere on this thread. Has to do with Mary, so it’s on-topic.

 

[TULIPed]

dougp - are you a Protestant? If so, what flavor? (I’m a Reformed Protestant BTW).

I noticed you used the “C.E.” nomenclature instead of “A.D.” At the risk of thread creep, I am curious why?

Finally, what harm is it if our Catholic brothers and sisters refer to Mary is “Queen of heaven” if they believe that she is subordinate to and always points the way to her son?