Mary: no relations with Joseph?

[Thepeug]

I’m aware of the fact that, according to Church tradition, Mary never had sexual intercourse during her time on earth. How, though, does one explain the following: Matthew 1:24-25 (NSRV): “When Joseph awoke from sleep, he did as the angel of the Lord commanded him; he took her as his wife, but had no marital relations with her until she had borne a son; and he named him Jesus.” “Marital relations” usually refers to sexual intercourse, and “until” umplies that such relations did eventually occur after Jesus was born. Perhaps “virginity” in reference to Mary concerns more her purity of spirit than the presence of a hymen?

In Christ,

Chris

 

[Timidity]

This is covered in other threads, as well as the CA site itself. I’ll take the easy way and quote Bishop Challoner from the mid-18th century:

“Till she brought forth her firstborn son”… From these words Helvidius and other heretics most impiously inferred that the blessed Virgin Mary had other children besides Christ; but St. Jerome shews, by divers examples, that this expression of the Evangelist was a manner of speaking usual among the Hebrews, to denote by the word until, only what is done, without any regard to the future. Thus it is said, Genesis 8. 6 and 7, that Noe sent forth a raven, which went forth, and did not return till the waters were dried up on the earth. That is, did not return any more. Also Isaias 46. 4, God says: I am till you grow old. Who dare infer that God should then cease to be: Also in the first book of Machabees 5. 54, And they went up to mount Sion with joy and gladness, and offered holocausts, because not one of them was slain till they had returned in peace. That is, not one was slain before or after they had returned. God saith to his divine Son: Sit on my right hand till I make thy enemies thy footstool. Shall he sit no longer after his enemies are subdued? Yea and for all eternity. St. Jerome also proves by Scripture examples, that an only begotten son, was also called firstborn, or first begotten: because according to the law, the firstborn males were to be consecrated to God; Sanctify unto me, saith the Lord, every firstborn that openeth the womb among the children of Israel, etc. Ex. 13. 2.

 

[Stylteralmaldo]

Thanks for the quote from the Bishop! This site fits it’s name as Catholic answers.

Much appreciated!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Of couse with God all things are possible. In my oppinion I believe that it is not possible to be husband and wife and not be intimate [sexually] with each other. How else do we become one?

 

[joehar]

hi,

Mary had other children read Mark 6:3 . this pertains to relations piece

 

[Vincent]

“until” umplies that such relations did eventually occur after Jesus was born.

Not necessarily.

What is necessarily true is that “until” indicates the lack of marital relations prior to Jesus’s birth. This doesn’t address whether Mary and Jospeh engaged in marital relations after Jesus’s birth. It’s simply silent on the issue.

 

[Scott_Waddell]

Ahh…the heos hou debate. Check out this link: catholic-legate.com/articles/heosindex.html

Here’s a simple illustration: I tell the kids in the classroom, “I’m leaving for a few minutes, behave until I get back.” Does this mean they get to misbehave when I return? Not at all. Scripture has a few examples of this as well (although I don’t have the passages at my fingertips).

Did Mary have other children? YES!!! Billions of them!

Did she have other in utero children? No, and the nowhere in the Bible is that claimed.

Scott

 

[Beaver]

SPOKENWORD:

Of couse with God all things are possible. In my oppinion I believe that it is not possible to be husband and wife and not be intimate [sexually] with each other. How else do we become one?

You become one in the union with God. After the birth of Christ, it would have been down play to have had sex with Mary. This is because Christ creates all things not just children and to participate in that creation down played the small part that we participate in sex.

 

[pprimeau1976]

joehar:

hi,

Mary had other children read Mark 6:3 . this pertains to relations piece

This can spawn a WHOLE other thread. Read the footnotes to this verse from the New American Bible.

http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/mark/mark6.htm:

The brother of James . . . Simon: in Semitic usage, the terms “brother,” “sister” are applied not only to children of the same parents, but to nephews, nieces, cousins, half-brothers, and half-sisters; cf Genesis 14:16; 29:15; Lev 10:4. While one cannot suppose that the meaning of a Greek word should be sought in the first place from Semitic usage, the Septuagint often translates the Hebrew ah by the Greek word adelphos, “brother,” as in the cited passages, a fact that may argue for a similar breadth of meaning in some New Testament passages.

 

[Timidity]

SPOKENWORD:

In my oppinion I believe that it is not possible to be husband and wife and not be intimate [sexually] with each other. How else do we become one?

So, in the years of mankind before Viagara, impotent men couldn’t marry?

The Protoevangelium of James, a book widely circulated in the early church but not entered into the Canon, purports that Mary was a consecrated virgin, and that her marriage the widower Joseph was so that he could server as a protector.

The belief that Mary was “Ever Virgin” goes back at least 1900 years.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

What an important thing to know! Did Mary do this, and did Mary do that?..

I don’t see where is the importance of such a topic. Please, can you tell me what will this add to our life with the Lord?

It is more than clear that God didn’t want to clarify anything about the life of the blessed Virgin after she begot our Lord. So why are you so concerned about something that God Himself didn’t want you to know deeply?

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.” ( Colossians 3:1-2 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

 

[Timidity]

joehar:

Mary had other children read Mark 6:3 . this pertains to relations piece

Unless Joseph was widower when he married Mary, so that his children would be the brothers and sisters of Jesus. (See my previous post).

 

[SPOKENWORD]

YAQUBOS:

Peace be with you!

What an important thing to know! Did Mary do this, and did Mary do that?..

I don’t see where is the importance of such a topic. Please, can you tell me what will this add to our life with the Lord?

It is more than clear that God didn’t want to clarify anything about the life of the blessed Virgin after she beget our Lord. So why are you so concerned about something that God Himself didn’t want you to know deeply?

“Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth.” ( Colossians 3:1-2 )

In Love,
Yaqubos†

You are right. Our conversations are to glorify God, not tear up the body of Christ. .

 

[Thepeug]

Scott Waddell:

Here’s a simple illustration: I tell the kids in the classroom, “I’m leaving for a few minutes, behave until I get back.” Does this mean they get to misbehave when I return? Not at all.

While I’m still not quite clear on the matter, this makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the (name removed by moderator)ut, everyone. As a side note, I know that Mary’s perpetual virginity has been believed for a long time, but I would hesitate to lend credibility to a belief solely because of its age. The cult of Isis flourished for 3,000 years, but I certainly put no stock in those beliefs.

God bless,

Chris

 

[pprimeau1976]

YAQUBOS:

It is more than clear that God didn’t want to clarify anything about the life of the blessed Virgin after she begot our Lord. So why are you so concerned about something that God Himself didn’t want you to know deeply?

I guess my question to you is how do you know what God wants us to know? Do you hold the position that the church has no authority to make such a teaching because it is not written? Even the Gospel of John states that there were so many things that Jesus said and did that was not written down. Should we then just abandon these beliefs then? If so, the Trinity would be in jeopardy as well.

 

[Thepeug]

YAQUBOS:

I don’t see where is the importance of such a topic. Please, can you tell me what will this add to our life with the Lord?

Yaqubos,

Thanks for the important reminder. I understand the relative triviality of such truths in comparison to the ultimate truth of our sacrificed and resurrected Lord. If the perpetual virginity of Mary is a de fide teaching of the Church, however, I want to understand the basis for such a teaching. I simply can’t understand why Mary would never have relations with her husband, and, more importantly, why her virginity is even important. A virgin is no more objectively holy than a woman who has had sex within the sacred bonds of marriage. To argue to the contrary is to infer that sex, even within marriage, is somehow a “dirty” or bad thing.

In Christ,

Chris

 

[pprimeau1976]

Thepeug:

As a side note, I know that Mary’s perpetual virginity has been believed for a long time, but I would hesitate to lend credibility to a belief solely because of its age.

You can lend credibility to older teachings because people recording history during the year 100AD are far less removed from the historical fact than someone recording history in the year 2004AD.

 

[Thepeug]

Mary’s perpetual virginity was professed and believed as soon as 100 AD?

 

[Timidity]

Thepeug:

Mary’s perpetual virginity was professed and believed as soon as 100 AD?

Yes. The Protoevaglium of James dates to 100-130.

(By the way, “AD” comes before the year, not after.)

 

[Della]

Thepeug:

Yaqubos,

Thanks for the important reminder. I understand the relative triviality of such truths in comparison to the ultimate truth of our sacrificed and resurrected Lord. If the perpetual virginity of Mary is a de fide teaching of the Church, however, I want to understand the basis for such a teaching. I simply can’t understand why Mary would never have relations with her husband, and, more importantly, why her virginity is even important. A virgin is no more objectively holy than a woman who has had sex within the sacred bonds of marriage. To argue to the contrary is to infer that sex, even within marriage, is somehow a “dirty” or bad thing.

In Christ,

Chris

Not all married people have a sexual relationship with their spouse. There can be many reasons why this is so, but in the case of Mary and Joseph the reason was two-fold:

Firstly, Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit. This means that she was set aside as sacred to the Lord, just as the Tabernacle in the OT had been. No man had the right to use her body for himself, this is why Joseph hesitated to take Mary as his wife, not because he thought she had sinned.

Secondly, Mary’s perpetual virginity protects the doctrine of Jesus’ being the only begotten Son of God conceived and born as a man–true God and true man. If Mary had had other children of her body, it could be argued that Jesus was Joseph’s natural son after all rather than having been conceived of the Holy Spirit.

And while a married woman may be as holy as a virgin, still, consecrating oneself to God as a virgin is a higher calling in that she is giving all of herself to God alone, which the married woman is not doing.