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Syele
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Not every protestant is an anti-Catholic extremist.
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Jeanette_L
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No, I wouldn’t say they were either.
My response was specific to the question as to why these sensational stories resonate with non-Catholics. So, if there are non-Catholics to whom these stories do not resonate, my response wouldn’t apply to them.
Peace!
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rr1213
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The most effective lies contain elements of truth. When anti-Catholics claim that this is Mary on the Cross, which based on the posts above is apparently a lie, they fall for the lie because of the Church’s inappropriate raising of the Blessed Virgin to the level of mediator, advocate and co-redeemer. When that happens, conceiving Mary on a Catholic cross unfortunately does not seem quite as preposterous.Because they like to cling to anything that makes their rejection of Catholicism seem more legitimate. They want these horror stories to be true.
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NotWorthy
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You have a good point, but also,
When you knowingly promote a lie in order to take advantage of people’s biases, even if you think you are converting them to the truth, is a sin and a shame. The people that produced the film and the people that continue this lie are shameful.
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rr1213
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I will agree with you here. If people know that this is not Mary hanging on that cross, then they should not make that accusation. Always speak the truth.
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quasimodo
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Inappropriate? Did not Christ say “As the father has sent me so I send you”? Are we not the Body of Christ? Wasn’t Christ mediator, advocate and redeemer? If these are the roles in which the Father sent Christ, are they not the roles in which Christ sends us? Are these not the missions given to the Body of Christ? If I pray for you, am I not mediating for you and thereby sharing in Christ’s role of mediator? If by my teaching, example, prayers, admonition, I help you to respond to God’s grace, am I not working in the Body of Christ to bring you to redemption?
I would not be redeeming you, but I would be cooperating with Christ, working in and through the Body of Christ, for the redemption of others. Co-redeemer is a role we are all called to.
Through our baptism, we are united with the Body of Christ to continue the work of His redemption … as He was sent by the Father, He has also sent us. Those things said about Mary are - or should be - true of us all.
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rr1213
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IF this had been Mary hanging on that cross, could I assume that you would find that to be inappropriate if not blasphemous?
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quasimodo
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I note that you do not address or reply to the idea I presented - you only make a sideswipe comment. Please feel free to engage the idea.
NO, to answer the sideswipe … it would not be appropriate.To be curcified literally is not the role of the Body of Christ - but we are called to take up our cross and follow. Col 1:24 should give some insight.
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rr1213
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We are not Christ. Submission to Christ, or if you prefer cooperation with Christ, does not make us co-redeemers of our salvation. Our redemption is solely by God…even to the extent that you believe in free will (and I do)…we are doing no more than accepting the promise offered by God. Mary submitted herself to the will of God, as shown in the Magnificat, and is to be respected for that reason. Scripture tells us that she will be called Blessed…and she righfully is called such. But none of this makes her, or us, an advocate, mediator or redeemer…titles that belong solely to Christ. I’ve been told over and over that Catholics don’t worship Mary…and I believe you (although I suspect that some misguided Catholics probably do worship Mary). Nonethess, the degree of devotion offered to Mary comes close to the line, is excessive, and reasonably leads others to believe that Catholics might, very well, substitute Mary on the Cross instead of her Son.
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Saint_Michael
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The fact that all Catholics get lumped in with this stuff drives me crazy. When David Koresh and Jim Jones kill their congregations Protestants don’t have to answer for it. But if some little Church in Ecuador does something un-orthodox and against Catholic beliefs I as a Catholic in Brooklyn have to answer for it.
The fact is I have no idea what that is, maybe it’s Mary on a cross, maybe it’s a Saint. All I know is it’s a Church in Ecuador that has nothing to do with my Parish. Write the Bishop to get the real deal and if it’s Mary I’ll be the first Catholic to say that’s a terrible heresy to protray the Blessed Mother as crucified.
There’s millions of Churches and billions of Catholics people, we can’t monitor folks in the Philipines and Ecuador, that’s the Pope and Bishops jobs.
The fact is I have no idea what that is, maybe it’s Mary on a cross, maybe it’s a Saint. All I know is it’s a Church in Ecuador that has nothing to do with my Parish. Write the Bishop to get the real deal and if it’s Mary I’ll be the first Catholic to say that’s a terrible heresy to protray the Blessed Mother as crucified.
There’s millions of Churches and billions of Catholics people, we can’t monitor folks in the Philipines and Ecuador, that’s the Pope and Bishops jobs.
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Stephen_C
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asteroid
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Paul writes - “I have been crucified with Christ…”
Maybe we could have an image of Paul crucified, or even of ourselves crucified.
Viewed symbolically of our life in Christ and for Christ there would be nothing blasphemous or outrageous.
Viewed literally, it would be appalling (unless the particular person in the image was literally crucified) :bigyikes:
Ain’t Galatians 2:20 wonderful? :yup:
Maybe we could have an image of Paul crucified, or even of ourselves crucified.
Viewed symbolically of our life in Christ and for Christ there would be nothing blasphemous or outrageous.
Viewed literally, it would be appalling (unless the particular person in the image was literally crucified) :bigyikes:
Ain’t Galatians 2:20 wonderful? :yup:
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rr1213
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Catholics say that their church is the ONE True Church. They revel in the fact that the Pope and Magisterium keep the Church in the ONE true faith. They point out to Protestants that the problem with the multiplicity of Protestant faiths and beliefs is that there is no one (i.e. the Pope) who is in charge who can authoritatively say what is what. So, yeah, that being the case, you ARE stuck with what happens with a Catholic Parish in Ecuador. You ARE lumped together with them. In contrast, Protestants do not suggest that they speak for each other…at least with respect to those outside of their own denominations.
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Saint_Michael
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Oh please that’s a complete joke…
If people honestly believe the Catholic Church teaches that all Parishes are infallible and incapable of teaching heresies they are dillusional. All one has to do is use a little common sense to debunk what you wrote. The Catholic Church is one, it’s teachings are universal, how that is applied to a Parish in Ecuador I have no idea. If they are preaching heresy then that’s there business, and it’s up to the Bishop of that diocese to correct it not me a lowly parishoner from Bay Ridge Brooklyn. All diocese run independently under the Bishop. It sin’t like the Pope has a giant monitor to see what’s going on.
I saw an 20/20 on a prominent African American gradute of a renowned Bible College, who veered off and taught that ALL people are saved in Christ regardless of who they are, what religion they are, or what they’ve done. Does this mean all Evangelicals teach that? Of course not because they don’t get lumped in with that. But some heretic does something in direct opposition of Catholic teaching and somehow Catholics condone it, and are idolators, it’s a ridiculous double standard.
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Stephen_C
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Ok rr1213.
- It is not Mary on the Cross of Jesus.
- It is of Santa Liberada who was crucified on the cross by her Father for her faith. That is her cross, Not Jesus’s.
The first 3 or so post made that very clear…with link’s with pictures and commentary.
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cathlicnlovinit
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The difference between this woman on the cross and Mary on the cross is that this woman (if what others say is true) WAS crucified on a cross. So a representation of her crucified would not be inappropriate. Mary was not crucified on a cross, so while I agree that she has played an important role in redemption, that would be a far fetched example of showing her role for us.
I think part of the difference is that yes, some Catholics are too comfortable with their veneration that leans on (the modern definition of ) worship. But in general, Catholicism is a very sensory religion (in that there are many appeals to all of our sense) so in some places you will find religious depictions of various events that don’t offend or surprise Catholics (especially when they know what it is) but may shock and offend Protestants. I’ve noticed that religion in general is a multi-sensory experience for Catholics and much more emotional for protestants. Even in more “liberal” Catholic churches there are Stations of the Cross, sometimes statues etc. in many Protestant churches you see banners and sometimes crosses, but that is about it.
Heather
I think part of the difference is that yes, some Catholics are too comfortable with their veneration that leans on (the modern definition of ) worship. But in general, Catholicism is a very sensory religion (in that there are many appeals to all of our sense) so in some places you will find religious depictions of various events that don’t offend or surprise Catholics (especially when they know what it is) but may shock and offend Protestants. I’ve noticed that religion in general is a multi-sensory experience for Catholics and much more emotional for protestants. Even in more “liberal” Catholic churches there are Stations of the Cross, sometimes statues etc. in many Protestant churches you see banners and sometimes crosses, but that is about it.
Heather
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rr1213
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I never said that it was Mary on the Cross. As I said in my posts above, my point is that if you find non-Catholics eager to jump on the misconception that this is Mary on the Cross, then perhaps you should look at what it is about Catholic teaching that would suggest to a non-Catholic that this was what was portrayed. My suggestion is that the Marian doctrines, and especially excessive Marian devotion by many Catholics, could lead rational people to accept the lie that Mary is upon the Cross.
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rr1213
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Interesting comment. What do you mean about Catholicism being a very sensory religion? You mentioned statues, Stations of the Cross, could you elaborate more?
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NotWorthy
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I think if I’m perfectly comfortable with the various Marian Devotions, then I should be willing to share them with my Non-Catholic friends, ESPECIALLY if they question me on them, which they often do.
Does it make them uncomfortable? I don’t care. I"m still willing to share the truth with them, if they are interested in why I do what I do.
If you feel that non-catholics are justified in jumping to this conclusion because of our excessive Marian Devotions, I can’t say I disagree with you. I’d feel the same say about something other faiths did that made me uncomfortable.
The important thing is, when you get down to it, it is easy to see how this could be mis-perceived as Mary on the Cross. It’s not.
No hard feelings.
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cathlicnlovinit
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I think I 've hear it said before that in Catholicism you have “smells and bells”. There is something for all of our senses. It reminds me of types of learning. As a teacher we are taught to teach to all types - visual, auditory and kinesthetic.
I think Catholicism is expressed the same way. God does not all ways appeal to our “feelings” and not all “feelings” are of/from God.
In Catholicism we bless ourselves with Holy Water-touch. There is incense -smell and sight, statues-sight etc. I know that protestants have other sensory representations of their faith, but it usually is used to lead to an overwhelming emotional response. In Catholicism it is used to demonstrate and evoke feelings and reflection but not as much to compell those responses.
Disclaimer-- I know that this does not hold for all Protestants but that has been my experience with visiting friends churches etc. I think that those differences are why some Protestants find it hard to accept some of the methods that Catholics use to commune with God.
Heather
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