Mary, save me! #2

[Subrosa]

First, I would like to thank moderator Michael Francis for closing the previous thread concerning this subject. It was trully getting out of hand.

But the OP question was not answered.

So, after doing a bit of research I am prepared to answer the question posed by a previous poster, “Upon being shot did Pope John Paul II say ‘Mary save me!’”

Some information has been archived on the internet concerning this issue which occured previous to the internet’s inception. However, there are a few sites that do have stored information or, in the case of Time and PBS, have extensive accounts of the Pope’s life.

1. The first source I will post features an archived video interview with a person present during the shooting:
   archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-69-2237-13366-10/on_this_day/life_society/twt
   This interview does not reveal any information concerning the Pope’s words upon being shot, but provides a good backdrop to the events.
2. The next is Time’s article which was published in the magazines issue at that time:
   time.com/time/covers/0,16641,1101810525,00.html?internalid=AC
   time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,924742,00.html

The only reference to what the Pope said is one line…from the article:

Nearly everyone repeated the question that the wounded Pope himself had asked: “Why did they do it?”

The report makes no mention of prayer or invocation to any saint, or Jesus for that matter.

1. A third source reports some words spoken by the Pope. In this report he invokes both Jesus and Mary.
   news.familyland.be/?p=70

This site sites it’s own source at the bottom of the article, however when I attempted to hyperlink, the source was not found.

The article states that the Pope invoked the names of both Jesus and Mary. According to the Pope’s personal secretary, Cardinal Stanislaw Dziwisz who was with him in the ambulance, “He was murmuring ‘Why did they do it?’ He uttered words of forgiveness for whoever shot him. I heard him pray, invoking ‘Jesus, Mary my mother’.”

1. PBS’ website features a video that shows the Pope’s devotion to Mary, but makes no mention, that I could find, of the shooting incident.

pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/pope/etc/video.html

As far as the actual words, “Mary save me”, the only sources I could find were two websites, both anti-catholic.

biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-317.htm
oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.357

It seems to me that the only people saying the words “Mary, save me” are the ones with a polemic agenda against the Catholic doctrines of Mary.

There is no doubt, however, that Pope John Paul II had a special devotion to Mary. It is very evident in his encyclicals concerning her.

Subrosa

 

[Lillith]

Thank you for doing the legwork on that Subrosa…I didn’t jump into the fray of that thread because I didn’t have the proof that you’ve provided

 

[Linkowski]

You yielded something just as troubling in the last thread anyway and that was the prayer of Pope John Paul II to Mary…again, these sound like many of the prayers in the Psalms that were directed to God and, again, are very troubling.

The quotes from previous Popes (I cited two of them) are equally troubling.

Lu 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[Jennifer_J]

Linkowski,
Do you know what the word “prayer” actually means?

Jennifer

ps I see you are in MI, you should try listening to Ave Maria Radio, it might answer some of your questions, if you have an open mind. WDEO 990 AM and WMAX 1440 AM

 

[Lillith]

You yielded something just as troubling in the last thread anyway and that was the prayer of Pope John Paul II to Mary…

Linkowski…

It is as if you did not read the post…follow the links…or anything:banghead:

1. The next is Time’s article which was published in the magazines issue at that time:
   time.com/time/covers/0,16…?internalid=AC
   time.com/time/magazine/ar…924742,00.html

The only reference to what the Pope said is one line…from the article:

Nearly everyone repeated the question that the wounded Pope himself had asked: “Why did they do it?”

The report makes no mention of prayer or invocation to any saint, or Jesus for that matter.

Isn’t The Times an unbiased enough source?

 

[I_Leatherman]

Lu 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Luke 1

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

6 Luke 1

42 And she cried out with a loud voice, and said: Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

 

[Subrosa]

Mr. Linkowski -
Your eisegesis of the biblical passages are not proven by history.
For instance, a Coptic prayer first written, previously spoken that dates from the 3rd century:

“We fly to thy patronage,
O holy Mother of God;
despise not our petitions
in our necessities,
but deliver us always
from all dangers,
O glorious and blessed Virgin.
Amen.

An letter by an Apostolic era bishop, Ignatius, to John the Apostle discusses Mary:

First Epistle of Ignatius to St. John

Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, to John the holy presbyter.

We are deeply grieved at your delay in strengthening us by your addresses and consolations. If your absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten then to come, for we believe that it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary [the mother] of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, [the daughter of Anna,] whom you love, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace.

Another letter, in which Igatius identifies himself as a disciple of John invokes similar words at the end of the letter to that of the Pope.

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Virgin Mary

Her friend Ignatius to the Christ-bearing Mary.
You oughtest to have comforted and consoled me who am a neophyte, and a disciple of your [beloved] John. For I have heard things wonderful to tell respecting your [son] Jesus, and I am astonished by such a report. But I desire with my whole heart to obtain information concerning the things which I have heard from you, who was always intimate and allied with Him, and who was acquainted with [all] His secrets. I have also written to you at another time, and have asked you concerning the same things. Fare well; and let the neophytes who are with me be comforted of you, and by you, and in you. Amen.

It seems to me that these people who had personal knowledge of Mary and who invoked her name would know better than you or I the position that she had at the beginning of christianity. She held a very high place of respect.

Mary knew what would happen to her. We read an account of her reaction to the news that she would bear a Most Holy Son in Luke chapter 1

*46 And Mary said: "My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
47 my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
48 For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness; **behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ***

---

As is evident from the letters I posted, the church has been calling her blessed from the very beginning.

Sub

 

[Linkowski]

I guess I do not see any reason here to treat her as the fourth member of the Trinity. I will not look at the websites because I have already seen enough. Look, there were a couple of times that I almost returned to the Catholic Church, but the Marian Theology among other things is just way too out there and unbiblical…like the devotion to Mary as if she can hear…

Idols might be wooden and be different from Mary in this way but Mary cannot hear like the idol either.

Was Mary a good Christian woman who did the will of God (as we all are supposed to) - YES, she was. But not to be adored, sought as a refuge, prayed to with the expectation of ***an answer ***(which I do not ask of my fellow Christians in Chruch), called the Queen of Heaven, the one we surrender our care to in the time of death, etc. This is not right.

By the way - she is blessed and so am I. Also, how long this has been going on has nothing to do with it either.

Is there any veneration of Mary in the book of Revelation while everyone is praising our loving Lamb of God? No, there is not.

Lu 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

 

[Lazerlike42]

Linkowski, do you realize that in that verse you quote at the end of your posts, Jesus agrees that Mary is blessed?

God’s blessings on you

 

[Lillith]

I guess I do not see any reason here to treat her as the fourth member of the Trinity. I will not look at the websites because I have already seen enough. Look, there were a couple of times that I almost returned to the Catholic Church, but the Marian Theology among other things is just way too out there and unbiblical…like the devotion to Mary as if she can hear…

No one believes that Mary is “the fourth person in the trinity” That is Blasphemy!

Fair enough…you don’t want to follow the links to read that the Pope did not cry out “Mary, Save me”…then please concede…it wasn’t said, and for you to continue with “why did he say this” would now appear to be dishonest…

I believe in the communion of Saints…I believe in the promises of Christ…

Passage 1 John 3:2:
2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Linkowski,
You started out in post 3 suggesting she should not be called blessed, and quoted some scripture to support yourself.
You were shown that scripture does not support that angle.
Later you admitted she was a ‘good woman’ but implied no more so than any other Christian.
Then you said she was as blessed as yourself, and other christians.
But the Angel of the Lord called her ‘Blessed among women’.
Which is not the same as calling yourself blessed, or you would have to call yourself ‘Blessed among men’ - something I know you will not do.
Your view of this blessed problem is the unscriptural view I’m afraid.
You must call Mary ‘Blessed among women’, a ‘special distinction’ if you wish to be scripturally accurate.

 

[geezerbob]

I will not look at the websites because I have already seen enough.

His mind is made up. Please quit trying to confuse him with facts.

 

[Linkowski]

Stop twisting my words, please. You still have given me no reason to pray to her as I would to God and attribute to her the attributes that can only be attributed to God.

 

[I_Leatherman]

Baby steps, Linkowski.
A Scripturally aware christian accepts she is ‘Blessed among women’, as the prophesy says 'behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed. ’

 

[Lazerlike42]

Stop twisting my words, please. You still have given me no reason to pray to her as I would to God and attribute to her the attributes that can only be attributed to God.

Let’s take it step by step. I really want to understand your objections. What is attributed to her that are only to be attributed to God? Start there. I’m really being very sincere here; I just need to understand what you mean more specifically.

 

[Lillith]

Stop twisting my words, please. You still have given me no reason to pray to her as I would to God and attribute to her the attributes that can only be attributed to God.

sigh< It is not “to pray to her as you would God” We are to ask her to pray for us as you would me…for instance

Passage Revelation 5:8:
8And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

Here we see the Angels offering the prayers of the Saints

Passage Mark 12:25:
25When the dead rise, they will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.

Here we see that we will be like the Angels…

 

[HailMary]

You yielded something just as troubling in the last thread anyway and that was the prayer of Pope John Paul II to Mary…again, these sound like many of the prayers in the Psalms that were directed to God and, again, are very troubling.

The quotes from previous Popes (I cited two of them) are equally troubling.

Lu 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.

Who better than Mary, Linkowski?

Luke 2:19

But Mary treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart.

Luke 2:51

Then he went down to Nazareth with them and was obedient to them. But his mother treasured all these things in her heart.

He who does not have Mary as his mother, does not have God the Father as his Father

You never answered me last thread Linkowski:

Is Mary your mother?

 

[Lillith]

The obstacle that non-Catholics have to Marian doctrines comes from the fact that the highest form of Worship for most denominations is prayer. You are doing your upmost best if you pray, it is the single most important thing you can do to worship God. So when they see Catholics praying to anyone other than God…it is most blasphemous

The highest form of worship for Catholics is not prayer…it is the Sacrifice. Sacrifice (through the once and eternal crucifixion of our Lord Jesus re-presented in the Eucharist) is reserved for God alone. Now…if you ever see someone sacrificing to Mary…that would be Blasphemous and all devout Catholics would be greatly alarmed and quick to correct!

Prayer is for everyone…the Living on Earth and the Living (moreso than me) In Christ…

Passage 2 Thessalonians 1:11:

11With this in mind, **we constantly pray for you**, that our God may count you worthy of his calling, and that by his power he may fulfill every good purpose of yours and every act prompted by your faith.

Constantly pray for you…That feels really good to me. I Love that St. Paul and all the saints that have done His will throughout the ages are "constantly praying for me.

 

[Church_Militant]

I guess I do not see any reason here to treat her as the fourth member of the Trinity.

Gee, that would be important if that was what we did. Your errant misinterpretation notwithstanding that is not.

I will not look at the websites because I have already seen enough.

So then you do not care about truth enough to exhaust every source in search of it.

Look, there were a couple of times that I almost returned to the Catholic Church, but the Marian Theology among other things is just way too out there and unbiblical…like the devotion to Mary as if she can hear…

I guess you’ve never read Hebrews 12:1 then. How can they be witnesses if they are not aware.

Unbiblical? I doubt that. Far more Biblical than Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, and the rapture.

Idols might be wooden and be different from Mary in this way but Mary cannot hear like the idol either.

Only if you ignore the Word of God.

Does death separate us from the Body of Christ? Not according to Romans 8 it doesn’t.

What does St. Paul say about the Body of Christ? (1st Corinthians 12:26-27) "26: If one member suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
27: Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. "

Was Mary a good Christian woman who did the will of God (as we all are supposed to) - YES, she was. But not to be adored, sought as a refuge, prayed to with the expectation of ***an answer ***

(which I do not ask of my fellow Christians in Chruch), called the Queen of Heaven, the one we surrender our care to in the time of death, etc. This is not right.All in your errant opinion. A man with no Biblical belief in the Communion of Saints (Bible study link).

Mary is never adored or elevated to deity and you can’t support that allegation with any Catholic document. It’s nothing more than anti-Catholic propaganda.

Regardless of your misinformed and agenda driven opinion, there is nothing wrong with the Marian devotion that the Catholic Church teaches.

By the way - she is blessed and so am I. Also, how long this has been going on has nothing to do with it either.

So the facts of history have no bearing on what we should believe, even tho we can check modern beliefs against those of the early church who were closer to the source of Our Lord and the apostles?

Now that is what I call wrong.

Is there any veneration of Mary in the book of Revelation while everyone is praising our loving Lamb of God? No, there is not.

Don’t be obtuse…every Catholic will tell you that she is right there worshiping God along with all the rest. Yet veneration is a far cry from adoration and you cannot cite a more unique person aside from Christ in all of human history than the Blessed Virgin…You will not be called blessed by all generations as Mary is, how do you justify exalting yourself like that?

Lu 11:27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.
28 But he said, Yea

rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.“Yea” that is Our lord saying “Yes and…” not denying that His mother was blessed.

Your argument is lamed by the fact that the Queen Mothers of the Kings of Israel (Hebrew: Giberah) had a special intercessory position.

Is Christ a King of Israel? Yes.
Of the Davidic line? Yes.
Did He have a mother? Yes.
As such would she qualify for the Giberah position? Yes.
Did she demonstrate that role in the New Testament? Yes she did.
Where? John 2:1-11

 

[Lazerlike42]

If you are interested to see just how powerfully John 2 does teach on Mary’s role, please see soladeiverbum.com/maryjohn2.shtml. It is a very short piece.

God bless