Mary sin free?

[bbroussard2]

Am I misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on Mary’s sin free nature? If we believe that she was assumed into heaven, then logically she was perfect, without sin, original and personal. I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus. Thanks.

 

[Spencerian]

Am I misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on Mary’s sin free nature? If we believe that she was assumed into heaven, then logically she was perfect, without sin, original and personal. I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus. Thanks.

Hi, there.

Mary, in preparation for her role as the Ark of the New Covenant, was saved from the taint of original sin through a special mercy of God.

Yes, we, as Catholics, hold to the tradition that, at her death, Mary was assumed into heaven by God, body and soul, because of her special role and because of her sinless nature, which made her inherently perfect and with no need for the process we know as purgatory. She did not become sinless or was assumed into heaven by her own power, as she was a human being as we all are.

The Protestants mistake the importance of “sinless” to the act of the Savior. Despite her sinless nature, Heaven was closed to **all, **due to Adam and Eve’s transgression, until Christ’s reconciliation of the sins of humanity to the Father.

Moses and many many other holy people who died prior to Christ’s Passion were not in heaven but in the state known as “Abraham’s bosom”–similar to limbo. Mary’s sinless state–nor that of any that God could have given any of us–would not matter were it not for Christ’s death on the cross. Sinless or not, Mary could not go to heaven without her Son’s act. She needed a Redeemer as the rest of us.

Perhaps you can draw on the comparison of Mary as the Ark of the New Covenant, carrying the Word of God in the flesh, to the Ark of the Old Covenant, carrying the Word of God as the Commandments. Scripture tells us that the original Ark was pure and so filled with the power of the Lord that one would be killed if they touched it. It was fitting for a pure vessel to carry our Lord in the flesh by the same token.

 

[Barbkw]

Adam and Eve were also created without original sin, with a special grace from God. They rejected that closeness with God so that they could become their own gods. They did not repent from their error, they blamed one another and they blamed God.

Mary was also born without original sin, and like Eve and Adam, she also could have rejected the will of God. Yet, she did not.

Through the Sacrament of Reconciliation, we all can personally enjoy the mercy of Jesus, His forgiveness of our sins, and the immediate return to God’s grace.

We must ask to share in that eternity and work toward having a clean heart.

 

[Mumbles140]

God found it fitting to bless Mary (full of grace) by withholding the stain of original sin from her. Mary, through her devotion to God and her Son, remained free from sin of her own human will. Due to the special place of Mary in the life of Christ, and, as a result, in the salvation of all humanity, she was given the special honor of the Assumption.

Mary, though sin free, was not unable to sin - she was so pure and accepting of God’s will that she chose not to. We, on the other hand, received the stain of original sin, and this has helped temptation to overcome our common defenses against evil. That is why we sin.

God’s love for us is made greater when we choose to love Him back, but having that choice means we must have free will, which is also what allows us to sin. God could have created us as his servants without free will and intellect, but we would have no soul and no ability to love him freely, like common animals. But by giving us this choice, and not forcing us to love Him like we were slaves, any love given to God by us is so much more powerful than a forced love, and so His love for us is amplified in return.

 

[Mark77]

**From the CA Library -Faith Tracts - Mary & the Saints - Immaculate Conception & Assumption:

“The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was “redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son” (CCC 492).”

“Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been “saved” from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place.”**

catholic.com/library/Immaculate_Conception_and_Assum.asp

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[EricFilmer]

Am I misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on Mary’s sin free nature? If we believe that she was assumed into heaven, then logically she was perfect, without sin, original and personal. I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus. Thanks.

If no one had ever sinned then Jesus would not have had to come as our Savior (for the simple fact that it is from sin and death that he saves us). But that was not the case. Mary still needed to be saved from sin through the merits of the sacrifice of Christ. In her case, she was preserved free of sin in anticipation of Calvary. Mark77’s post presents a way of understanding this. Also, keep in mind that Mary declared that God is her “Savior” (Luke 1:47). Therefore, being immaculately conceived (i.e., being preserved from all sin from the moment of conception and thereafter) does not mean that a person is perfect, nor does it mean that Jesus did not have to die for such a person. If there was no Calvary then Mary could not have been saved in anticipation of it.

 

[geekborj]

Since most answered on the other issues, I would like to address the following.

I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus.

Creating all of us perfect would result to the same Fall that Adam and Eve did in the beginning. I believe God had known this already. Let us remember that Mary were prevented from sinning but were tested the moment the Archangel Gabriel asked her (re: Angelus) acceptance of her role in the Incarnation of the Word of God.

Catholics believe that after every Communion, we enter into the “state of grace” which is essentially like the state Adam, Eve and Mary was (for Mary, has always been). Obviously at one time or another, people fall into sinning again and again. We are kept “alive” by the Mercy and Providence of God through the Ministry of Reconciliation (Sacrament of Reconciliation) and the Bread from Heaven (the Eucharist).

Spare Jesus? If God would spare himself from offering the greatest Love of all, then He is not Love and would contradict himself.

What I do not see from (most, as not all do) Protestants is why would they not believe that God can prevent someone from sinning (or even from temptation) as He did to Mary? Don’t they pray the Our Father that Jesus himself taught: “Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from Evil”? God the Father did exactly that to Mary in lieu of Jesus’ Sacrifice on the Cross.

 

[clmowry]

Am I misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on Mary’s sin free nature? If we believe that she was assumed into heaven, then logically she was perfect, without sin, original and personal. I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus. Thanks.

Adam and Eve were created “perfect” and sin free.

Eve chose to sin, Mary chose not to sin.

Chuck

 

[Smcnic]

I think that this question has been more or less answered but i thought id share with yous a lovely line I read in Maria Valtorta’s book Poem Of The Man-God, ive paraphrased it but i hope you get the gist…

Adam and Eve were born into perfect world but chose corruption
Our Lady was born into a corrupt world but chose perfection.

I just think its a lovely line and seemed appropriate to share it here !

Go mbeannai Dia mhaith duit

Seán

 

[bbroussard2]

Thanks everyone for the great replies, I got a lot of good new perspective out of this. One of the things that bothers me the most is that this debate on Mary, just continues to go in circles with my friend and I. When I point out that she was indeed “saved” (Luke 1:47), by the merits of Christ in advance, then he asks why couldn’t we all be saved in the same way. He just doesn’t see that making sense. When I point out the significance and importance of her nature, because she is the ark of the new covenant, then we go back to “if she was perfect, then she needed no savior.” Maybe my inexperience with apologetics keeps me in this circle, but there’s got to be a way to get my friend to at least acknowledge that our belief is a valid and biblical one. Thanks again.

 

[Spencerian]

Thanks everyone for the great replies, I got a lot of good new perspective out of this. One of the things that bothers me the most is that this debate on Mary, just continues to go in circles with my friend and I. When I point out that she was indeed “saved” (Luke 1:47), by the merits of Christ in advance, then he asks why couldn’t we all be saved in the same way. He just doesn’t see that making sense. When I point out the significance and importance of her nature, because she is the ark of the new covenant, then we go back to “if she was perfect, then she needed no savior.” Maybe my inexperience with apologetics keeps me in this circle, but there’s got to be a way to get my friend to at least acknowledge that our belief is a valid and biblical one. Thanks again.

You might want to note that:

Mary, although sinless, was still human. Until her Son’s Passion, the gates of heaven were closed to *all *humanity, no matter their piety. Her Son created not only a perfect union of God and man, but a perfect sacrifice that, by Jesus’s nature as both God and man, MUST be able enter heaven, and therefore allow others who are like Him to follow as well. Jesus, not Mary, is the template, or “ticket” that allows entry into heaven.

We were not purged of original sin as Mary because God chose not to. I realize that this answer may not satisfy your friend, but remind him that God is not human and sees far more of everything, including reasons of why and why not, than we do.

Besides, God didn’t have to remove the taint of original sin from all of us because Christ’s new covenant provided us an earthly process to do so. That’s baptism.

But the key here is choice. While Mary received the grace of immaculate conception at birth (without reason coming to play), she still had to *choose to accept *God’s plan for Christ’s birth within her, as shown in Luke 1:26-38. Likewise, we must choose to have a similar grace given to us. God does not violate our free will, therefore removing the taint of original sin without asking us–in a sense, *forcing *us to love him–would be anathema to His nature.

So long as we maintain that grace ourselves by avoiding mortal sin, we are the same as Mary in terms of worthiness to enter heaven–although more inclined to sin than she was. ScriptureCatholic has many Biblical citations that indicate the necessity of baptism (and, mind you, at birth, not at some arbitrary “age of reason”, paralleling the Jewish rite of circumcision) to receive the fuller graces of God.

Mary didn’t need baptism because (1) she was a Jew and a woman (only *infant *boys, through circumcision, were brought into Judaism by formal initiation) and (2) her Son had not instituted this New Covenant process before her birth and (3) her special grace with God already provided to Mary what baptism would otherwise give her.

 

[Tomster]

Thanks everyone for the great replies, I got a lot of good new perspective out of this. One of the things that bothers me the most is that this debate on Mary, just continues to go in circles with my friend and I. When I point out that she was indeed “saved” (Luke 1:47), by the merits of Christ in advance, then he asks why couldn’t we all be saved in the same way. He just doesn’t see that making sense. When I point out the significance and importance of her nature, because she is the ark of the new covenant, then we go back to “if she was perfect, then she needed no savior.” Maybe my inexperience with apologetics keeps me in this circle, but there’s got to be a way to get my friend to at least acknowledge that our belief is a valid and biblical one. Thanks again.

Unless your friend has a clear understanding of what original sin is and how it is transmitted to each person, I am afraid your discussions with him will continue to go around and around in circles.

 

[mangy_dog]

Am I misunderstanding the Catholic teaching on Mary’s sin free nature? If we believe that she was assumed into heaven, then logically she was perfect, without sin, original and personal. I often hear from protestant friends that if God could’ve created her perfect, then why didn’t He create us all the same way, and spare Jesus. Thanks.

Those poor souls are worthy of prayer.

Free will is of such dangerous nature in the hands of free, intelligent beings that, even if Lucifer had no part in the fall from grace of Adam and Eve, free will and our own concupiscience would’ve been enough to cause us to sin.

Jesus would’ve become flesh anyway because that’s how much He loves the Father and that’s how much He loves us.

And Mary would’vs still been the Immaculate, Perpetual Virgin, Mother of God!

One thing is not contingent on the other. It’s like saying, " there is so much strife on this earth…why did God create the constellation of Malnax?".

No relation!

 

[NHInsider]

Thanks everyone for the great replies, I got a lot of good new perspective out of this. One of the things that bothers me the most is that this debate on Mary, just continues to go in circles with my friend and I. When I point out that she was indeed “saved” (Luke 1:47), by the merits of Christ in advance, then he asks why couldn’t we all be saved in the same way. He just doesn’t see that making sense. When I point out the significance and importance of her nature, because she is the ark of the new covenant, then we go back to “if she was perfect, then she needed no savior.” Maybe my inexperience with apologetics keeps me in this circle, but there’s got to be a way to get my friend to at least acknowledge that our belief is a valid and biblical one. Thanks again.

Not necessarily - because your friend is coming from a completely different construct and way of thinking about salvation. But - one thing I haven’t seen mentioned here, is God’s sovereign will and His freedom to choose to work out His plan as He chooses. This is true from “the foundations of the earth.” It’s true in Eden, it’s true on Moriah, it’s true in the Upper Room, it’s true at Calvary.

The Bible is full of examples of people whom God chose “just because.” He chose to reveal Himself to Abraham. He chose Moses to lead the Israelites. He chose David to be the king. He chose Isaiah, Jeremiah, . . . you get the drift.

None of these people did anything to earn the role that God chose them to fulfill. And yet each of them had the choice to reject their roles. Each of them had to co-operate with God, over and over again, to carry out the mission that He asked them to live. And so with Mary.

God wanted to prepare a suitable tabernacle for His Incarnation. (Think about all the preparation that went into the construction of the Ark of the Covenant, and how holy it was made by His presence.) He chose a woman and prepared her, and gave her a choice and she co-operated. She is the first Christian, the first person to accept the Lord Jesus, the first one to believe the unbelievable news. If He chose to do this, who am I to say "why didn’t He do it differently?

Could God in His omnipotence have created humanity without free will? If He had, would He have been perfect love? Could God in His perfect mercy have just changed His mind about the wages of sin? Well -then He would not be perfectly just.

Can we fully understand the mind of God? Scripture says no. We believe many things that we cannot fully comprehend, because we believe that He has revealed them to us.

There are lots of reasons why what we believe about Mary is reasonable, why it is in keeping with the ways of God as revealed in His interactions with His people as recorded in the Scripture. But for those who reject that revelation, there will always be one more objection. They choose not to believe. They hear and hear and do not understand, as the Lord said to Isaiah.