Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[adrift]

Adrift,
Maybe you can shed some light on this for me.
You say you are not calling Mary divine or immaculate yet:

Where did I say she was not immaculate?

People are praying to Mary when the Lord said ask in his name.
One says Mary is this woman in Revelation clothed in the sun and the moon was under her feet.
People say she is the new Eve when there is no mention of the new Eve.
Also, they say she is Eve when Eve was the wife of Adam and the second Adam has no wife.
That is what the wedding supper of the Lamb is for.
The church which is betrothed unto him will be taken to him and be his bride.

I won’t go on but if that isn’t calling Mary immaculate or divine what is?

I don’t see anything in what you are writing that says that Mary is a god.:nope:
The first miricle was because of Mary’s intervetnion. Paul asked others to pray for him. Do you think that those he asked were gods. Nah! of course not. We ask Mary to pray for us like Paul asked others to pray for him.
Mary is the queen. In the Old Testament, it was the mother of the king that was queen not his wife.
Jesus is the second Adam. Not that everything is reflected in that. He did not have a wife for instance. Why is He the new Adam? Because He has saved us from sin and restored us to the inheritance that Adam lost. Mary was the first to take into her arms the child Jesus, Son of God. That in no way makes her divine nor do we treat her as divine. We are grateful to her for her yes to God so that through her Jesus was born and salvation was possible. What is? Mary is god. That is calling her divine anything short of that is not calling her divine.

 

[Marybeloved]

Yes, I read other posts as well but they keep coming back to Mary being some divine individual that people pray to in hopes she will make intercession to God in Jesus’ place.

You see, this is what shows you to be dishonest, Frank. Tell me exactly which posts that you claim you read, even mentioned anything about Mary’s intercession? Tell me which ones spoke about her taking Christ’s place? We’ve all been discussing whether or not Mary was sinless- what discussion have you been having? I think you’ve just proven that you’re debating phantoms.

Peace!

 

[brumano]

brumano:
You see Mary being referred to as the Mother of the living and the Mother of God in Catholic doctrine and where else; in the Scriptures that you claim to go by.

Mary is truly the Mother of God from the very beginning, she was already known and chosen by God the Father at the begining. Read the account of the begining from John; “In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us”. Mary is in the heart and mind of God from the begining, and she is already designed by the eternal author to also be our Mother.

Eve was the wife that Adam hearkened to in commiting the first sin, that is why it is called the fall of Adam and Eve. That sin brought death to them and to all of us who must die, so If you eliminate Mary you are left with only Eve; she is not truly the mother of all the living, Mary is because through Mary came eternal life in the Resurection of God’s Son and her 's.

Mary’s husband was St. Joseph, but she is the spouse of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is her’s.

Jesus is more than a quickening spirit; devilry is full of quickened spirits. Jesus has a real body, He took no wife on earth but he has a bride, His own Church.

The second Adam was a carpenter in one of His works but He did not just become the spotless lamb when He ascended to His Father; He was already designated as the lamb “slain from the foundation of the earth” when Mary was also designated.

It is not really any concern what you might admire us for, but I’m glad you at least see that Mary is truly “full of grace”. If you want a Scriptural account of how Mary intercedes for us read in Luke about the Wedding Feast of Cana. We Catholics cannot exalt her, our heavenly Mother any higher than God Himself has done and will do Himself. And our Lord who is God does exalt her by hearing her intercessions for us…Question for you would be this, why did a sword have to pierce her heart also? Find the answer in the Scriptures then maybe you’ll understand that she’s your Mother also.

 

[CopticChristian]

Whilst Baptism shows our dying to self and living to Christ it is not baptism per se that justifies us, but faith in the resurrected Christ: Romans 10:10 - "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.". It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

Beautiful Scripture (1 John 1:9). Just to be sure we’re on the same page, *sanctification *and *justification *is not the same thing. The latter makes you in right standing with God. The former makes you set apart or holy for Him. I think we agree we are in need of both. But they are not the same thing.

Compare Romans 10:

10 - *"with the **heart one believes ***

verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. 26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? 27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

If you read the beginning of Romans 2 and see the transition frow works of the law and then how Paul points out over and over again how circumcision won’t satisfy the New Covenant…and then compare that to Romans 10, all he is saying is that as he says in Romans 7, the Old Covenant is dead, having told you in Romans 6 your baptism is the entrance into the Covenant and in Romans 10 he is clarifiying that it is also necessary to believe everything else he just said to get it right. It is not a formula for salvation as Protestants have mangled it. It is true you have to believe however in the context of Romans, this Chapter 10 is addressed to Christians of like minded Faith…recall Romans 1

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. 9For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers; 10Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. 11For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established; 12That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me./

QUOTE]

If they have mutual Faith why would it be necessary to impart some formula for getting saved? The whole purpose of the letter is to impart a spiritual gift and to teach “obedient Faith”…Faith in action…see Romans 1 and Romans 16

5By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith

among all nations, for his name:

and

26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

The first and last time Paul mentions Faith, he mentions it as Obedient Faith. Faith in action.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Marybeloved,
Nowhere do I hope to be some cyberspace martyr.
There are too many modern day Isaiahs walking around thinking they need to do some great work for God that nobody else will do. The results are disasterous.

Some of the things you are accusing me of are not good of you.
Just because I won’t say that Mary wasn’t in the book of Revelation I am some evil heretic.
I’m sorry to tell you this but Mary was blessed but not what people are making her out to be.

How can anyone justify praying to Mary as they do in the churches I have visited when Jesus said we were to pray to the Father in HIS name?

How do Catholic people justify praying to Mary when the word is clear that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus?

How do you justify saying Mary is the later or new Eve when Eve was married to Adam and the 2nd Adam had no wife?
How do you justify it when the church is the betrothed of Christ and she is his bride he will return to take?

How do you justify the fisherman’s ring when the keys to the kingdom were given to Peter?
How do you justify it when there is no mention of them being given to a Pope?

These are things that pretty much give any outsider the opinion that you are worshipping Mary above Jesus.

I’m supposedly evil because I stand on the word and make no provisions to the commandments of man?

Even Jesus said How be it in vain that they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You say that I probably haven’t read any posts but mine.
I read the posts from where I start onward.
If the people really want to get me to think about their faith they won’t mind repeating an answer given maybe way back on page 2 or 15 or so.
I would do it for them.

 

[adrift]

Marybeloved,
Yes, I read other posts as well but they keep coming back to Mary being some divine individual that people pray to in hopes she will make intercession to God in Jesus’ place.

This is false. Again you come back to this false claim.

1. No one says Mary is a god
2. No one say that she take Jesus’ place.
3. Jesus is God. Jesus makes intercession with His Father. Mary always points to her son.

 

[adrift]

You say that I probably haven’t read any posts but mine.
I read the posts from where I start onward.
If the people really want to get me to think about their faith they won’t mind repeating an answer given maybe way back on page 2 or 15 or so.
I would do it for them.

This is moving fast so you probably need to go back and see the post that you are missing.

 

[CopticChristian]

Marybeloved,
Nowhere do I hope to be some cyberspace martyr.
There are too many modern day Isaiahs walking around thinking they need to do some great work for God that nobody else will do. The results are disasterous.

Some of the things you are accusing me of are not good of you.
Just because I won’t say that Mary wasn’t in the book of Revelation I am some evil heretic.
I’m sorry to tell you this but Mary was blessed but not what people are making her out to be.

How can anyone justify praying to Mary as they do in the churches I have visited when Jesus said we were to pray to the Father in HIS name?

How do Catholic people justify praying to Mary when the word is clear that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus?

How do you justify saying Mary is the later or new Eve when Eve was married to Adam and the 2nd Adam had no wife?
How do you justify it when the church is the betrothed of Christ and she is his bride he will return to take?

How do you justify the fisherman’s ring when the keys to the kingdom were given to Peter?
How do you justify it when there is no mention of them being given to a Pope?

These are things that pretty much give any outsider the opinion that you are worshipping Mary above Jesus.

I’m supposedly evil because I stand on the word and make no provisions to the commandments of man?

Even Jesus said How be it in vain that they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You say that I probably haven’t read any posts but mine.
I read the posts from where I start onward.
If the people really want to get me to think about their faith they won’t mind repeating an answer given maybe way back on page 2 or 15 or so.
I would do it for them.

Frank,

Let us say that you do not see Mary in the book of Revelation.

We do not worship Mary. That was condemned in the 3rd century.

You stand on your interpretation of the word, without telling anyone how or why you believe it to be Scripture.

One last thought. This is Catholic answers. You pose no question for instruction or provide any answers that would be considered anything but opinion. I suggest you search this site for Mary under the Catholic.com or even ask an apologist.

Do you really want an answer or do you just want to share your opinion and ask questions about justifying beliefs. I am sure that many have posted justification of beliefs and you ridicule them. I want to know how you justify believing that you are reading Scripture when in fact all you are reading is a translation. Where are the original scriptures? How do you justify Protestants changing the Bible? How do you justify you impudence?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

I know that Mary was chosen of God to bear Jesus before this world was ever formed. This mush is true.

But I also know that ever person in the household of faith was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world. It can be seen in Psalms and Revelation.

It says the Lord was made in secret and wonderfully made and all of his members were written before they ever were. It also says the names of those born in Zion were written.

Just because we were written in the Book of Life before this world was made it does not mean that people should pray to us. Neither does it mean that we are some sort of divine being.

Mary may have been foreknew as the one that would bear the Lord Jesus Christ but that does not mean one can go against the words of Christ.
He said he is the only way to God. He also said that the Spirit would bear witness unto HIM.

Marybeloved keeps saying that I am falsely accusing the Catholics with references to their belief she is divine.
You do not have to say Mary is divine word for word if your other words or actions bear witness that is in your heart.
An example is Judas.
He did not say “I betray Christ.”
But, his words and the kiss of deceit showed he used the word deceitfully and betrayed the Lord.
In like manner when people pray to Mary and such as I posted above whet does it REALLY say?

All who are part of the body of Christ were written in the book before we were.
People should not pray to us.
The same holds true with Mary.
She does not make intercession unto God for us.
Jesus does.

And, hopefully Marybeloved will quit with the accusations, judgments and twisting my words.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

CopticChristian,
I didn’t come seeking to have Catholics justify themselves but so far it seems all I’m getting hit with are a bunch of people angered by things that are scripturally sound in a Non-Catholic forum.

 

[Marybeloved]

Nowhere do I hope to be some cyberspace martyr.
Some of the things you are accusing me of are not good of you.
Just because I won’t say that Mary wasn’t in the book of Revelation I am some evil heretic.

Frank, please stop lying. I accused you of blasphemy for an unnecessary insult to an important biblical figure. I accused you of dishonesty for stating that you’ve read things here which are not here. If it’s not true, just point out the posts and I’ll apologize.

Mary did not have to Marry Jesus to be the New Eve. She just had to be the first woman on the new order of grace, to get the same privileges Eve got and to obey instead of disobey- To co-operate rather than mislead.

We call her Eve, because Jesus called her “woman”, as you pointed out, and “Woman” is what God called Eve, just read Genesis. We call her Eve because when Adam and Eve fell, God promised that it was the seed of the woman that would crush the serpent’s head- We know the Serpent is Satan, we know the seed and crusher is Jesus, therefore we know that the woman prophesied is Mary. Again, Jesus himself kept calling her “woman” as you pointed out. If he had merely wanted to show she was not that special as you believe, he would have called her by her name “Mary”.

But just as She is “Full of grace” and not just Mary to God the Father, She is “The Lord’s Mother” and not just Mary to mankind as revealed by the Holy Spirit to St. Elizabeth, she is “woman” and not just Mary, to Jesus- It was God who declared that the “woman” would be a mother and not a wife, when he said the seed of the woman. He also put a permanent enmity between her and her seed and the serpent- Another indication of Mary’s sinlessness.

So we see this “woman” as referred to in Genesis as Eve, then prophesied by God as mother of the serpent-crusher, then the serpent-crusher is born of Mary and he calls her “woman” and not mother or Mary, then in revelations 12, she shows up again- A spectacle of a"woman" that is clothed in the sun, crown of stars, moon under her feet- And she’s pregnant and giving birth to a son who is the enemy of the dragon and the dragon becomes also the enemy of the woman. The son is Jesus, only one woman gave birth to him, her name is Mary. I hope you don’t keep saying you haven’t been answered, now.

Peace!

 

[adrift]

pray to Mary and such as I posted above whet does it REALLY say?

All who are part of the body of Christ were written in the book before we were.
People should not pray to us.
The same holds true with Mary.
She does not make intercession unto God for us.
Jesus does.

And, hopefully Marybeloved will quit with the accusations, judgments and twisting my words.

Again you are misreprenting what is being said. Mary interceds with Jesus just as the people the Paul asked to pray for him do. Are you saying Paul was wrong to ask others to pray for him?

You have many misunderstandings of Catholic teachings. Mary never had any other children but that isn’t the subject of this thread. If you wish to argue that point, start another thread or find one of the hundreds already in progress.
You misunderstand much more. I would suggest that you do a search on what we actually believe and not what you think we believe.

 

[adrift]

CopticChristian,
I didn’t come seeking to have Catholics justify themselves but so far it seems all I’m getting hit with are a bunch of people angered by things that are scripturally sound in a Non-Catholic forum.

I see no anger. Just those who are trying to correct your misunderstanding of the Church. I do not find anything presented that is scripturally sound in your arguments. They are ignorant of the context they were presented.

 

[Marybeloved]

And, hopefully Marybeloved will quit with the accusations, judgments and twisting my words.

Who is twisting your words? Are you not the one still insisting that Mary is divine to Catholics despite numerous corrections by now? Are you not the one who said that you read posts that replaced Jesus with Mary and called her Divine and spoke of intercession? I’ve asked you (third time now) to point out those posts- Which ones are they?

Peace!

 

[pablope]

Marybeloved,
Nowhere do I hope to be some cyberspace martyr.
There are too many modern day Isaiahs walking around thinking they need to do some great work for God that nobody else will do. The results are disasterous.

How can anyone justify praying to Mary as they do in the churches I have visited when Jesus said we were to pray to the Father in HIS name?

How do Catholic people justify praying to Mary when the word is clear that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus?

These are things that pretty much give any outsider the opinion that you are worshipping Mary above Jesus.

I’m supposedly evil because I stand on the word and make no provisions to the commandments of man?

Even Jesus said How be it in vain that they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

You say that I probably haven’t read any posts but mine.
I read the posts from where I start onward.
If the people really want to get me to think about their faith they won’t mind repeating an answer given maybe way back on page 2 or 15 or so.
I would do it for them.

Frank…please do some more reading about the Catholic faith.

Let me point out something, if it has not been pointed out yet. Praying to a Catholic is different for a Protestant.

Praying to a Catholic is not worshiping. Our manner of worship is the Mass. Praying our private devotion to the Lord, and praying, as meant from the beginning of the CC, is pleading, asking for intercession. Those praying in churches you visited are just that, praying, pleading, spending private time with the Lord. You immediately made a judgement with your observation that those you saw where worshipping.

When you come visit a Catholic church again, make sure there is a mass and observe how Catholics worship. There you will experience the vision of St. John in Revelation and the supper of the Lamb.

For protestants, as each generation got farther and farther from the original faith, and in order not to look Catholic, protestants started throwing out parts of the mass. And without the mass, what is left for protestants? Prayer as their only form of worship. So I would surmise that for you, prayer as your only form of worship is only a recent development and has not been how the first christians worshipped.

And so, when you discuss prayer with a Catholic and when you visit a Catholic church, please think of this distinction.

Also, I will leave with a passage from the Book of Job 42:

*7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has. 8 So now take seven bulls and seven rams and go to my servant Job and sacrifice a burnt offering for yourselves. My servant Job will pray for you, and I will accept his prayer and not deal with you according to your folly. You have not spoken the truth about me, as my servant Job has.” 9 So Eliphaz the Temanite, Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite did what the LORD told them; and the LORD accepted Job’s prayer.

10 After Job had prayed for his friends, the LORD restored his fortunes and gave him twice as much as he had before.*

Here, you see God telling Eliphaz to go through Job, and Job obeys God and prays for his friends. Isn’t this intercession?

When Job prayed, did he worship God?

And here, Job was rewarded twice for interceding, through praying.

 

[adrift]

You do not have to say Mary is divine word for word if your other words or actions bear witness that is in your heart.
An example is Judas.
He did not say “I betray Christ.”
But, his words and the kiss of deceit showed he used the word deceitfully and betrayed the Lord.
In like manner when people pray to Mary and such as I posted above whet does it REALLY say?

3 Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, I have sinned in that** I betrayed innocent blood. **But they said, What is that to us? see thou to it.

But Judas did say that he betrayed. We do not believe Mary is divine that is what we say. You twist that into but you do by your actions. In other words, you are calling us liars and you know are true intent.

 

[adrift]

Who is twisting your words? Are you not the one still insisting that Mary is divine to Catholics despite numerous corrections by now? Are you not the one who said that you read posts that replaced Jesus with Mary and called her Divine and spoke of intercession? I’ve asked you (third time now) to point out those posts- Which ones are they?

Peace!

You can’t point out that which does not exist:shrug:

 

[rikkk1958]

She does not make intercession unto God for us.
Jesus does.

Yes she did. She knew who her Son is before He said His time has not come yet. She was the one who ordered the servers to pour water into the jars so that Jesus will make them into the best wine they ever tasted.

Frank, you and I may not be theologians or scholars of the Bible but it seems that you are questioning our beliefs on Mary. I believe in Marian Doctrine because it was proclaimed by the Church. I trust the Church, the scholars, disciples, apostles, and writers of the Gospel.

If you read more on Marian Doctrine you will find your answer. Mary was an exception because she was the handmaid of the Lord. For nothing is impossible with God. Jesus is sinless because He must be conceived by a sinless being. Mary did say that God as her savior because she was saved before she became a being. She will be called Blessed for all generations. Mary is “Full of Grace” , a title not a description as compared to Stephen. Mary as the second Eve for the New covenant, a vessel for the Lord, like the Arc which carried the sacred word of God in the Old covenant. Jesus was the Word.

Besides, the Blessed Mary showed us many miracles.

Also, read your scriptures about prayers. “Prayers of the righteous are very powerful”

 

[CopticChristian]

I know that Mary was chosen of God to bear Jesus before this world was ever formed. This mush is true.

But I also know that ever person in the household of faith was written in the Lamb’s Book of Life before the foundation of the world. It can be seen in Psalms and Revelation.

It says the Lord was made in secret and wonderfully made and all of his members were written before they ever were. It also says the names of those born in Zion were written.

Just because we were written in the Book of Life before this world was made it does not mean that people should pray to us. Neither does it mean that we are some sort of divine being.

Mary may have been foreknew as the one that would bear the Lord Jesus Christ but that does not mean one can go against the words of Christ.
He said he is the only way to God. He also said that the Spirit would bear witness unto HIM.

Marybeloved keeps saying that I am falsely accusing the Catholics with references to their belief she is divine.
You do not have to say Mary is divine word for word if your other words or actions bear witness that is in your heart.
An example is Judas.
He did not say “I betray Christ.”
But, his words and the kiss of deceit showed he used the word deceitfully and betrayed the Lord.
In like manner when people pray to Mary and such as I posted above whet does it REALLY say?

All who are part of the body of Christ were written in the book before we were.
People should not pray to us.
The same holds true with Mary.
She does not make intercession unto God for us.
Jesus does.

And, hopefully Marybeloved will quit with the accusations, judgments and twisting my words.

Mary is not divine. The Church does not teach that she is divine. Catholics do not believe Mary to be divine. There is a Father/Son/HolySpirit, Trinity. Mary is not part of the Trinity.

What you percieve to be other than that is your perception. How much clearer do you want this? Your perception is your reality however not necessarily reality.

Go to ask an apologist and ask if the Catholic Church teaches, Catholics believe, or any other such nonsense about Mary being Divine.

There is a book written by a Protestant about Mary that I cannot recall. Just understand that Christianity is nothing more than Family. We are part of the Family. Mary is part of the Family. Jesus is the first born of all creation, our brother, so that we may become children of God.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Being the open minded type I can see where you might get these ideas about the woman in revelation being Mary however I believe the woman is not Mary.
Even if she was foretold as you say she is still just a woman and nothing more after her given birth to Jesus.
Neither do I believe that people should be praying to her.

Paul may have asked that people pray for him but that is in a slightly different set of circumstances.
The people I see praying to Mary are as though they have bypassed the commandment given by Jesus to ask the Father (not Mary) in his name (not Mary’s)
This I personally believe to be exalting her to the point where she is part of the Godhead.
That Godhead is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The 3 mentioned of the Lord have no mention of Mary.
The Father Son and Holy Ghost.
Personally, by the scriptures I have already shown that she was in the upper room to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The Lord said in the 17th chapter of John that the Holy Ghost would bear witness of him and lead into all truth.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.
If the Holy Ghost will testify of only Jesus and lead into all truth it will lead to Jesus since he is the truth.
This allows for no room for Mary to be exalted above measure.

For the sake of peace believe what you wish.
I still hold that the doctrine of Mary making intercession is wrong.
She is just another soul made perfect through Christ that is at the throne of God worshipping the Lord for his goodness like all others that have made it to heaven and who has had their name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

And, since all members of the household of faith were written before this world was the exaltation of Mary is wrong in being singled out as special after giving birth to Christ.