Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[CopticChristian]

Being the open minded type I can see where you might get these ideas about the woman in revelation being Mary however I believe the woman is not Mary.
Even if she was foretold as you say she is still just a woman and nothing more after her given birth to Jesus.
Neither do I believe that people should be praying to her.

Paul may have asked that people pray for him but that is in a slightly different set of circumstances.
The people I see praying to Mary are as though they have bypassed the commandment given by Jesus to ask the Father (not Mary) in his name (not Mary’s)
This I personally believe to be exalting her to the point where she is part of the Godhead.
That Godhead is the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The 3 mentioned of the Lord have no mention of Mary.
The Father Son and Holy Ghost.
Personally, by the scriptures I have already shown that she was in the upper room to receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

The Lord said in the 17th chapter of John that the Holy Ghost would bear witness of him and lead into all truth.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.
If the Holy Ghost will testify of only Jesus and lead into all truth it will lead to Jesus since he is the truth.
This allows for no room for Mary to be exalted above measure.

For the sake of peace believe what you wish.
I still hold that the doctrine of Mary making intercession is wrong.
She is just another soul made perfect through Christ that is at the throne of God worshipping the Lord for his goodness like all others that have made it to heaven and who has had their name written in the Lamb’s Book of Life from the foundation of the world.

And, since all members of the household of faith were written before this world was the exaltation of Mary is wrong in being singled out as special after giving birth to Christ.

You are making progress. You and I have the right to believe as we wish. Now concerning what you see this is your perception and perception is your reality but not necessarily reality. I honor your perception and believe you are sincere. I also believe that to be sincere is good and sometimes you can be sincerely wrong. But I do see progress in your thinking.

 

[CopticChristian]

Great verse. I like it too. I guess the important aspect for me is that baptism is irrelevant if repentance has not taken place: “Repent and be baptized”. Without true repentance there is no effective baptism. It is not the baptism that does it for you. Refer John the Baptist who preached repentance so as to be baptised.

Again, I like that verse too. Great reference. However, refer what St. Paul is saying before that passage. He is talking about God’s grace through Christ, and that the sins of those who are renewed in Him do not (deliberately) sin any longer: “God’s law was given so that all people could see how sinful they were. But as people sinned more and more, God’s wonderful grace became more abundant. So just as sin ruled over all people and brought them to death, now God’s wonderful grace rules instead, giving us right standing with God and resulting in eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (5:20-21).

St. Paul is saying that sin is overcome by grace if we are in Christ Jesus. From Acts 2:38 you quoted above we know that you need to repent and be baptised in Christ to receive the grace spoken about here.

In case anybody is watching, this is why we call the writings of Paul and Peter and John and Mark and Jude the word of God. Jesus is God. Jesus’ words are God’s word. And, “Our Lord himself is the source of the Apostles’ teaching” (Marybeloved). This is why the Bible is the word of God. But, I digress.

I love that passage. He’s not only talking about being baptised in water, He is also talking about the need to be born of the Spirit, which is to be “born again”:* “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”* (John 3:3). So, water baptism isn’t ‘what does the trick’. Being born again is what does the trick proven by water baptism.

Thank God for that. You’re right. He has always ***primarily *** (note the emphasis please!) been after our **hearts **not our hands: *“These people draw near to Me with their mouth, And honor Me with their lips, But their heart is far from Me.” *(Matthew 15:8). If your hands are all for Him (in service) and your heart is not with Him (in true faith), your works mean little.

To this sentence you should add, in my opinion, as I see it, based on my understanding because that is what you have and that is all you can offer, nothing more. Recall that as a Protestant the best you can hope for is a fallible interpretation of anything that you call Scripture.

 

[joe370]

Folks, it is time for me to sign off for today.
As I said there are some areas where the Catholic church does not line up with scripture.

Take care.

I understand that you believe that there are areas where the Catholic church’s teachings contradict scripture.

I used to say the same thing, as a former protestant, until it occurred to me that that was tantamount to me actually claiming that my interpretation of scripture was a more accurate interpretation than that of the CC, which is kind of silly and presumptuous.

If you are correct, then you must be deferring either to your own interpretation or to the interpretation of another person or church leadership, to prove that certain teachings of the Catholic church do in fact contradict scripture? After all scripture cannot interpret scripture.

Which one is it friend?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Adrift,

On a previous post you said it was my understanding of scripture that did not line up and not the Catholic church.

I do not wish to start another war of sorts but in this you are wrong.

In Matthew 23:9 Jesus said call no man on earth your father for there is one Father in heaven.
I understand this perfectly.
I have never called any man father for there is one Father in heaven. He is Jehovah, God Almighty who gave his only begotten Son that we might be saved.

I am fully aware that many justify calling the local minister father. They will have to answer for that.

In 1 Timothy 4:1-6 we see what Paul commanded Timothy whom he taught the ministry.

[1] Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
[2] Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
[3] Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
[4] For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
[5] For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
[6] If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.

In these points above we see the Catholic church has gone against what Paul taught Timothy.

In these scriptures I know what they mean and am not misinterpreting them.
Neither am I seeking ways to get around them.
I have allowed my children to marry just as my pastor is married.
I eat meats after saying grace.
I do not nor have I ever called any man father.

In these area the Catholic church does go against scripture and not my understanding of scripture.

Thank you for your time but in some areas we are beating a dead horse so to speak and this has nothing to do with whether or not Mary was sinless.
With some of these issues I agree that they are better discussed in another forum.
Where, I do not know yet, but not on this thread.
I do wish to thank everyone for their time though.

 

[PRmerger]

The word of God is very clear in that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and it is also written that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.

Again, this is very Catholic of you to say, Frank.

It is also written that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.

You are quite consonant with Catholic teaching when you proclaim this.

On the island of Patmos John saw the revelation in which Christ was the only one that was worthy to take the book from his Father and open it.
The souls of just men made perfect and the entire host of heaven fall on their face and worship Christ.
Mary is not even listed in the book of Revelation.

Okay. Not sure what your point is here. She is in the New Testament, and that’s quite important, no?

And she is to be called for all eternity “blessed”. No other creature on heaven or earth is called “by all generations” blessed.

Maybe you read all these web sites that you offer me to read but I stick to the Bible and only the Bible.

Fair enough. But this is an unbiblical tradition. For nowhere does the Bible state that you are to “stick to the Bible and only the Bible.” The only reason you do this is because you believe the words of some fallible pastor who told you to believe this. But you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

 

[gerhardc]

I understand that you believe that there are areas where the Catholic church’s teachings contradict scripture.

I used to say the same thing, as a former protestant, until it occurred to me that that was tantamount to me actually claiming that my interpretation of scripture was a more accurate interpretation than that of the CC, which is kind of silly and presumptuous.

If you are correct, then you must be deferring either to your own interpretation or to the interpretation of another person or church leadership, to prove that certain teachings of the Catholic church do in fact contradict scripture? After all scripture cannot interpret scripture.

Which one is it friend?

No disrespect here Joe but isn’t that the same argument the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders used when speaking to John the Baptist, a ‘lay preacher’? They couldn’t hear (understand) him because they presumed to have had a greater academic or religious knowledge. Their presumption was their folly and it was based on their ‘lineage in terms of religion’. They represented the ‘authoritive view’ concerning matters of God. I guess you can say they represented the ‘Church according to tradition’ of the time. Whilst their understanding of God had been derived from the Law of God through Moses, their twisting of the message behind it (faith - refer Romans 10) in the interest of additional precepts and regulations saw them miss the presence of the Messiah completely. Despite them having the greater education they really understood nothing about Christ. Yet, they could not see this because they could not fathom the possibility of missing the point - after all, they were the ‘custodians of Scriptural interpretation’ of the time.

Today, those who have been born again and who have received the Holy Spirit can count on Him to be bringing understanding: “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.” (1 John 2:27). Is every person who calls him/herself a Christian actually born again, like Jesus said we should be? And, do everybody who is reborn actually listen to the Holy Spirit? Well, that is another story altogether.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Again, this is very Catholic of you to say, Frank.

Fair enough. But this is an unbiblical tradition. For nowhere does the Bible state that you are to “stick to the Bible and only the Bible.” The only reason you do this is because you believe the words of some fallible pastor who told you to believe this. But you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

I am afraid that you are making a grand judgment call in error.
You know nothing of who I am nor of my heart or beliefs.
I was raised in a heathen family that never took me to church. My teaching until later years was by the Holy Ghost.

I tried reading many books. I even have a Catholic book called The True Faith or something like that along with the Living Bible and many others.

When I used the King James Bible the Lord started showing me what to believe and only in that Bible does his Spirit reveal things to me. Some of them are in the post directly above yours.

The Lord said live by every word that proceedeth forth from the mouth of God and that we are to worship God only. We are also to worship him with all of our heart and soul and strength and mind. That is why I use only a King James Bible.

I do not put my trust in men that would cause me to blasphemy by calling another man on earth father when Jesus himself said call no man on earth father as there is one Father in heaven.

When I see things that go straight against his words I cannot trust my soul which will live forever in either hell or heaven into the hands of a man expecting me to transgress the words of Christ.

I do not listen to a pastor without checking things out in the word of God. I have also left many churches for that reason. I do not blindly follow anything a man says.

Respectfully, you are wrong with that judgment call as there are words saying to use only the word of God.

In Deuteronomy the Lord did not say teach the Catholic doctrine when thou rise and when thou walk and when thou stand.

To me as a follower of Christ I find it blasphemy to add or subtract anything from the word of God and take the warning about adding to or subtracting from in Revelation very seriously.

If you wish to use other books that is between you and God but I will not.

 

[PRmerger]

I am afraid that you are making a grand judgment call in error. You know nothing of who I am nor of my heart or beliefs.

Fair enough.

Then you will be able to provide a Scripture verse that backs up your statement that you made: “but I stick to the Bible and only the Bible.”

What verse says you you must “stick to the Bible and only the Bible”?

Hint: you can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find that tradition in a single page.

You only believe that because you read it somewhere *else *or heard another fallible man say it, but you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

PRMerger,
I would like to clarify one thing.
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever read the words “Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Yet, when I see him as Abraham my righteousness, Isaac the promised child, Jacob the beloved Son I see and am reading Jesus Christ is the promised beloved Son of God whom is my righteousness.

The Spirit of God has revealed these things so that even though the word does not say word for word that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the old testament I read it all the same.

The same holds true for reading only the word of God.

It is there when revealed by the Spirit very plainly.

 

[PRmerger]

I do not put my trust in men that would cause me to blasphemy by calling another man on earth father when Jesus himself said call no man on earth father as there is one Father in heaven.

Well, this is peculiar, Frank, for then you do not put your trust in Paul?

For he calls himself our father.

“for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.” --1 Corinthians 4:15.

and he calls Abraham our father.

“as well as the father of the circumcised who not only are circumcised, but also follow the path of faith that our father Abraham walked while still uncircumcised”.—Rom 4:12

Are you now going to throw out all the epistles written by St. Paul because he enjoins upon you to call him your father through the Gospel, as well as addressing another man, Abraham, father?

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger,
I would like to clarify one thing.
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever read the words “Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Yet, when I see him as Abraham my righteousness, Isaac the promised child, Jacob the beloved Son I see and am reading Jesus Christ is the promised beloved Son of God whom is my righteousness.

The Spirit of God has revealed these things so that even though the word does not say word for word that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the old testament I read it all the same.

The same holds true for reading only the word of God.

It is there when revealed by the Spirit very plainly.

Amen! You are giving a great argument for the Catholic teaching on Sacred Tradition.

Even when things are not explicitly stated in Scripture we come to an understanding of the Word of God through the Tradition which brought you this Scripture.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

PRMerger,

I really do not care what Paul referred to himself as.
I, understand I will not call a man on earth father.

Now, as for what I believe about using only the word of God I feel that I explained spiritual discernment with my post about Abraham, Isaac and Jacob being types and shadows of Jesus Christ though he be not mentioned by name in the old testament.

As I said the same holds true for using only the word of God.

I don’t search the scriptures looking for a post whereby I can justify going against the words of Jesus Christ.
I would rather go in accordance with the words of Jesus Christ.

The word of God is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Is a person searching scripture to please God?
Is a person searching scripture to get around pleasing God?
Both are different as one is attempting to please God and another is searching for a way not to.

Now, if you feel comfortable in the sight of God calling a man father that is up to you.
I do not.
I personally consider it blasphemy.

I have also found that where there are scriptures to reveal sin there are scriptures to justify it for the purpose of grace.
Some will search out a scripture to justify sin and blasphemy just so they can feel good about doing or saying it.
The word also says the word is as a double edged sword. Some will use it right in an attempt to please God and some will seek out justifying sin and damn themselves.

I have found on some other sights that in these last days there are some that justify abominations such as homosexuality using scripture. They are well versed in it and twist it wonderfully. They are of the type who do a diligent search of the word to find scripture to back their abomination. It will catch up with them in the end and their sin will search them out.

I do not care about getting into squabbles about some things.

 

[CopticChristian]

PRMerger,
I would like to clarify one thing.
Nowhere in the Bible have I ever read the words “Jesus Christ is the Son of God.”

Yet, when I see him as Abraham my righteousness, Isaac the promised child, Jacob the beloved Son I see and am reading Jesus Christ is the promised beloved Son of God whom is my righteousness.

The Spirit of God has revealed these things so that even though the word does not say word for word that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the old testament I read it all the same.

The same holds true for reading only the word of God.

It is there when revealed by the Spirit very plainly.

Jehovah Witness, 7th Day adventists and Joseph Smith read that too…

 

[Telestia]

Fair enough.

Then you will be able to provide a Scripture verse that backs up your statement that you made: “but I stick to the Bible and only the Bible.”

What verse says you you must “stick to the Bible and only the Bible”?

Hint: you can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find that tradition in a single page.

You only believe that because you read it somewhere *else *or heard another fallible man say it, but you never read it in a single page of the Bible.

I’m fully with Frank Hagen, on this PRmerger.

Here is a prime example of sticking with the Bible and only the Bible:

Ac 17:10-13
The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. NASU

This is the proper way to determine God’s will. Read the Bible in context. This is why we have the Holy Spirit dwelling in us, that as we genuinely search the Scriptures to find God’s will and plan for us and our salvation is revealed to us. We are not alone, The Holy Spirit will reveal it to us if our relationship with God is genuine. The scriptures play the major role in this. How can we tell a true teaching from a false teaching if they do not study the Holy Scriptures?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

I guess it is safe to say that we have some beliefs that are similar such as the post on Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

The reason that I personally will not convert to Catholicism is my conscience before God in what the Holy Ghost has revealed unto me.

That does not mean that I judge others for their beliefs.
As I said if you feel comfortable calling a man father that is between you and God.
I cannot though.

There are other areas but they would be just another thread derailment on Mary being sinless.
I would rather discuss them elsewhere.

 

[PRmerger]

PRMerger,

I really do not care what Paul referred to himself as.

These are the Words of God that you are dismissing, Frank. He very specifically calls himself our father, and calls Abraham, another man, our father, too. Clearly, Paul, an apostle and writing an INFALLIBLE text, could not be contradicting the command of God.

Incidentally, do you call no man on earth teacher, too?

“But you may not be named Teacher: for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers.”–Matt 23:8

I hope that you are as adamant about this verse, 8, as you are about verse 9. Do you go to your local school and object to the title given to their employees who educate the students: Teacher?

 

[Marybeloved]

St. Paul is saying that sin is overcome by grace if we are in Christ Jesus. From Acts 2:38 you quoted above we know that you need to repent and be baptised in Christ to receive the grace spoken about here.

I love that passage. He’s not only talking about being baptised in water, He is also talking about the need to be born of the Spirit, which is to be “born again”: “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”** (John 3:3). So, water baptism isn’t ‘what does the trick’. Being born again is what does the trick proven by water baptism.

Hello, Gerhard,

Thanx for the civil discussions.

I guess we have some things we agree over (finally!) and some we don’t .

The Bold and underlined bit- You see a separation in Jesus words’ born of water and spirit’. We don’t. To us saying “born of water and spirit” is a long way of saying “baptized”. Again, this is because Jesus never instituted mere ritualism- Anyone who reads his criticisms of his contemporaries will see that Jesus was not the type to institute rituals, but if he instituted anything, it was an effective means with actual power to do what is promised- Baptism does not mean only water as you believe but the spirit as well, otherwise it’s nothing more than empty ritual at best- or just another kind of bath!. Together with the element of water as Jesus requires, It’s the spirit and power in the invocation "In the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit**"** that, as you put it, does the trick.

You see, there’s power in God’s name! The Apostles healed “in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth” And the power of the Apostles to invoke “the name of the father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” comes after Jesus’ resurrection. In fact, we do not see the Apostles actually using that power at all, until God the Holy Spirit comes down on them, forms them the true church of God and mystical body of Christ, one with Christ who is source of grace, Then they have the full charge and speak with the boldness of “one with authority” or in the person of Christ. So the words of Faith of the Church **“I baptize thee in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit” **together with water, will “do the trick”. Unless there’s an impediment in the soul of the person getting baptized- baptism will effect the justification of that soul and the birth of the new life as promised.

In the case of an impediment, eg. as if the person is merely pretending and mocking the sacrament and has the sin of disbelief, the grace will come forth surely (God is ever faithful to his promise), but a closed heart cannot receive it- It will “bounce” right off the sealed door of his soul- Same in all circumstances. Jesus said "Receive the Holy Spirit- If you forgive the sins of any- They’re forgiven, and if you retain sins- they’re retained". So the Priest at confession says at the end, that by the power of the Church- Here read the right of the Church to invoke God’s Holy Name with power or effect guaranteed by Christ from whom this very right or power comes, "I absolve you from your sins…IN the name of the father, Son and the Holy Spirit" Again that invocation of faith by the Church, of God’s Holy name, is what “does the trick” because God’s promise is absolutely sure. It’s the same prayer of faith of the Church that the church uses to exorcize demons.

Protestants actually acknowledge this when they say “I command…in Jesus’ name” placing a lot of faith in invoking the Holy name with faith. But Jesus said, miracles were accomplished little for lack of faith in them. Therefore as long as the invocation is done properly in the faith of the whole church, the effect and power is guaranteed, but the reception into the soul will be hindered by an impediment in that person such as a sin of disbelief. That basically, is the Catholic understanding of sacraments- It’s the Church’s power guaranteed by Christ, to invoke with faith God’s most Holy name, and in so doing, effect the grace and power of God to the soul, which power and grace has been attained by Christ.

So you see, Catholic faith and the whole sacramental life, is based on faith and grace. I guess w have a lot more in common with Luther, than I thought .

Peace!

 

[pablope]

I am afraid that you are making a grand judgment call in error.

I tried reading many books. I even have a Catholic book called The True Faith or something like that along with the Living Bible and many others.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m fully with Frank Hagen, on this PRmerger.

Here is a prime example of sticking with the Bible and only the Bible:

Ac 17:10-13
The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews. Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so. Therefore many of them believed, along with a number of prominent Greek women and men. NASU

This is an example of the Bereans examining the Old Testament, Telestia.

I don’t think that you are advocating doing what the Bereans did, right?

Is there a verse in Scripture that states we are to use the Bible and “only the Bible”?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

PRMerger,

No, I do not call men teachers.
I know that the scriptures said there were teachers and apostles but I choose to follow the words of Jesus.

As I said, are men searching the word to follow and please the Lord (who is the word incarnate and final authority) or are they searching for a loophole?

The thoughts and intents of the heart.