Thank you!All of this make perfect sense. Of course the big question is, did Jesus, as her Savior, preserve His mother from original sin, thereby neutralizing Satan’s attack on His mother? What son wouldn’t do this for his mother given the chance?
I’ll check out your blog…
I understand these are just your thoughts, not definitive opinion. With that said, you think because Mary is “so handicapped” - whatever that means, we should turn our backs on God??? I have no idea what you are trying to say Steven.
Goodness, this sounds just like what the pagans that denied the Incarnation said!
Give me a link to what the pagans said…it was hardly pagan-like since it was in defence of Mary.Goodness, this sounds just like what the pagans that denied the Incarnation said!
Read the links…
Well yes, obviously.
The pagan Greeks and Romans were shocked by the idea that God could become Incarnate, because they were dualists who thought that the physical world was corrupt and not of God.
That’s how I see it. The first adam and eve of the old creation were created sinless; the second adam and eve of the new creation were created sinless.
I’m not Bible scholar, but this is what I think. Another poster has mentioned this idea, as well, so I’m not being original. If you look at the context of Romans 5, the passage is contrasting the first Adam with the Second Adam, Jesus. In the context of that argument, it doesn’t make sense to talk about the first Eve. The passage is not denying her existence or involvement, it’s just not mentioning her because she’s not pertinent to the point the writer is making.
Well, God the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, too (1 Corinthians 6 v19, for example. God hates sin, but He is willing and able to live in us, and work through us, even though we still sin. How does that work? I have no idea. For me, this is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. God was willing and able to become a baby, and be born of an ordinary, human mother. (Yes, OK, so Mary was extraordinary in terms of her obedience and love for God, but I hope you can see what I’m saying…) For Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born as we are all born, to imperfect, human parents. If Mary were this sinless, perfect person, that would hardly make for a normal upbringing, would it?
All through the Bible, we see God do extraordinary things through ordinary, flawed people. King David the adulterer; S/Paul, the persecutor of the faithful… why does Mary have to be any different?Scripture isn’t always cut and dried, no. If it were, we would all agree on every point, and this forum would be pretty quiet. lolI guess the point of the thread is: scripture is not always so cut and dried; Scripture needs someone to settle matters such as these; Observational questions such as these are impossible to resolve.
How is that possible to resolve the matter without God’s (name removed by moderator)ut?
How do we go about getting God’s (name removed by moderator)ut regarding observational questions such as this - is the bigger question?
The catholic answer is - we go about getting God’s (name removed by moderator)ut regarding observational questions such as this via HIS church.
The protestant answer is, I think - we can’t know for sure…
First of all one,where in scripture does it teach or mention something must be explicit in order to be true? I read no where in scripture where it mentions a 27 NT canon in explicit terms or definition?Personally, I try always to keep in mind that I could be wrong.
Including Mary in the Romans 3 passage is sensible, because it’s the simplest interpretation. I’ve been taught that, when trying to understand Scripture, you should look at what’s simplest and most straight-forward first. So, when Romans 3 v23 says ‘all have sinned’, I would say it means ‘all’, as in everyone (excluding Jesus, because we know from elsewhere that He was without sin). The reason I wouldn’t exclude Mary from that is because I don’t see anything elsewhere in Scripture that would lead me to believe she is excluded. You use Scripture to interprete Scripture, so any conclusions have to be compatible with the whole of the Bible. If Mary was totally without sin, I would expect that to be mentioned somewhere in the Bible, but as far as I know, it is not. I am willing to be corrected, of course, so feel free.
So your no Bible scholar ! well join the club
, because I’m not one either, Yes John was sanctified in the womb of Elizabeth, the Holy Spirit rested on the Apostles heads etc; and we receive the Seven Gifts of the Holy Spirit,** but none of us have carried the incarnate Word.I don’t think it was a normal upbringing…For me, this is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. God was willing and able to become a baby, and be born of an ordinary, human mother. (Yes, OK, so Mary was extraordinary in terms of her obedience and love for God, but I hope you can see what I’m saying…) For Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born as we are all born, to imperfect, human parents. If Mary were this sinless, perfect person, that would hardly make for a normal upbringing, would it?
To bring the Saviour of the world into being, the Word made flesh, and turn the tables on the evil one, Mary the New Eve, pure and spotless like the first woman was…
Hi Godith,I’m not Bible scholar, but this is what I think. Another poster has mentioned this idea, as well, so I’m not being original. If you look at the context of Romans 5, the passage is contrasting the first Adam with the Second Adam, Jesus. In the context of that argument, it doesn’t make sense to talk about the first Eve. The passage is not denying her existence or involvement, it’s just not mentioning her because she’s not pertinent to the point the writer is making.
The verse in Romans 3 is in a section that is talking about how everyone, Jew and Gentile, is in need of salvation - everyone needs the grace that is only available through Christ, and keeping the law isn’t enough. Could Mary be excluded from that ‘everyone’? She * could*. Personally I think it’s unlikely, because the whole passage is about the universal need for salvation through faith in Jesus.
Well, God the Holy Spirit dwells in believers, too (1 Corinthians 6 v19, for example. God hates sin, but He is willing and able to live in us, and work through us, even though we still sin. How does that work? I have no idea. For me, this is part of the mystery of the Incarnation. God was willing and able to become a baby, and be born of an ordinary, human mother. (Yes, OK, so Mary was extraordinary in terms of her obedience and love for God, but I hope you can see what I’m saying…) For Jesus to be fully human, he had to be born as we are all born, to imperfect, human parents. If Mary were this sinless, perfect person, that would hardly make for a normal upbringing, would it?
Scripture isn’t always cut and dried, no. If it were, we would all agree on every point, and this forum would be pretty quiet. lol
I think you are right about what the non-Catholic answer to this is. Often, we can’t be sure. Learned theologians spend lifetimes discussing and debating some of these questions, precisely because it is so hard to know for sure. We non-Catholics learn to live with a degree of uncertainty about things. Perhaps Catholics do too? You’ll have to tell me. God is so far above us, we can’t expect to know and understand everything about Him and His ways. I trust that God will tell me if I’m seriously off track, and I pray that I’ll listen.
St. Paul was speaking in terms of hyperbole to make a point. Just as parents will at times say to their children: I told you a million times…