Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[Marybeloved]

What do you think grace is Good? Is it not the justification of an individual FROM THEIR SINS by the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God?

Take a look at this passage

Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

**Jesus is full of grace because He is the source of grace. Everyone else that is full of grace is a benificiary of The grace provided by Christ. What that means is just like this passage says we all being sinners cannot be justified by our works in the keeping of the law but only "by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: **

This is what it means to be “full of grace”. That Mary just like the rest of us that believe is the beneficiary of the grace of God through redemption FROM HER SINS through the atoning sacrifice of her perfect son on the cross.

What use is there quoting verses on grace vs works?- Catholics have been saying constantly that Mary was “made” full of grace, not earned it. How can a newly conceived zygote/embryo earn anything? Mary was given that grace “in view of the merits of Christ!” from the first instance of her existence. No human being earns the grace they receive from God/Christ- There’s no question about that here:shrug:. The fact however remains, as Luther has explained that she was filled with grace- completely. She apparently did not loose any of it, because this was her condition when the angel greeted her- No room for any sin:shrug:.

Also no use in insisting on the phrase “from sins”, “from sins” repeatedly- If there was a ditch in a path, both of us head to it from opposite directions. I fall inside. Superman arrives just as you are about to fall in and pulls you back. Then he lifts me out- is any of us any less saved by Super-man? One is saved from falling in, another is rescued from the pit- Both owe their rescue to the same person! So Mary was saved from falling into sin, we were saved from the sin we fell into- All of us credit our salvation to the only one who saves. The only difference is that Mary needed the same salvation prior, by God’s mercy and divine decree, due to her completely unique place in Salvation History, and God being God, arranged it. He gave her “a down-payment” or " a loan" against the sacrifice of Christ to come, and already happened from the beginning. That’s what it means to say “in view” of the perfect merits which her son was to achieve- you see, God was not afraid of a possible default on the loan by his son! Think about it in terms of a divinely negotiated arrangement to which Mary was not privy, but of which she (and the human race who said “yes” to salvation through her) was the primary beneficiary.

As I said, fact still remains. When the Angel greeted her, she was already filled to the brim with grace- No sin. This same grace is what took our savior to the cross to gain for us, to earn it to the fullest measure for us all (including his Mother who was already enjoying it).

 

[Good_Fella]

What do you think grace is Good? Is it not the justification of an individual FROM THEIR SINS by the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God?

Jesus is full of grace because He is the source of grace. Everyone else that is full of grace is a benificiary of the grace of Christ. What that means is just like this passage (Romans 3:20-26) says we all being sinners cannot be justified by our works of keeping of the law but only by his grace that is through the redemption of Christ Jesus.

God’s grace certainly isn’t evil. So why do you ask if it is good? Grace is certainly good for the soul’s sanctification and as an aid for us to lead a holy life by God’s goodness. Grace is not merely God’s favour to us. As a Protestant, you think of righteousness in one dimension: it’s legal and behavioural quality. Legal righteousness is forensic and external to the individual and is acquired solely by God’s decree and the imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to the individual’s account. In other words, God declares the individual righteous by only taking into account the righteousness of Christ while the individual is justified only by placing his faith in Christ’s merits while still in sin. His sin can only be covered or concealed by the blood of the Lamb, but never completely blotted out. Meanwhile behavioural righteousness is a growing disposition or inclination to doing good which occurs only after justification. It acquires sanctification for the individual, but does not justify him before God.

On the other hand, Catholics view righteousness in two dimensions: quality and quantity. Righteousness almost always means intrinsic righteousness: an ontological transformation and growth effected by divine grace. The individual isn’t declared innocent and just while in a state of guilt. God’s grace actually heals and cleanses him. He literally becomes clean and just in God’s sight and does not just appear to be so before men. Thus the individual acquires more righteousness and increases his justification before God by doing good works with the help of God’s grace. Justification isn’t a one-time event, and nor are we saved by faith alone. Hence, intrinsic righteousness - as opposed to external righteousness - is a righteousness inherent to and part of the individual. St. John has this righteousness in mind when he writes in his First Letter (3:3): Everyone who has this hope in him makes himself pure as he is pure. God does not only declare people righteous as if by legal decree (“Have mercy on me God in your kindness…and blot out my transgression”), but He actually goes a step further by actually transforming the fabric of our being through the infusion of His sanctifying grace which renders us just in His sight (“Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a steadfast spirit within me.”). Sanctifying grace is the only formal cause of justification. Scripture portrays justification as both a divine declaration and an interior transformation. Psalm 51 uses both legal and intrinsic terms which supports traditional Catholic teaching.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing (1 Jn 1:7-9). The word “cleanse” comes from the Greek word katharizo, which means an actual infused cleansing, not an imputed pretended washing away of sin. Justification initially occurs at the beginning of the Christian life when communicated through the sacrament of Baptism. On this occasion God completely cleanses the recipient of all sin by bestowing on him sanctifying grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, granting him new life by incorporation into the Body of Christ and adoption into the family of God as a partaker of the divine life. This justification cannot be earned or merited by any preceding act of ours - not by faith or works - because it is a free gift from God in his mercy made possible strictly by the merits of Christ. Provided we remain in the state of sanctifying grace, we cannot lose our justification before God.

This is where progressive justification enters the picture. There is no condemnation for those who have buried themselves together with Christ as long as they walk in the light and not according to the flesh. St. Paul writes:* Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come* (2 Cor 5:17). So righteousness may actually be obtained for ourselves by practising what is righteous and pleasing to God. Our justification is completed through the righteousness wrought by us in God’s grace. Then hear Thou from heaven, and act and judge Thy servants, punishing the wicked by bringing his way on his own head and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness (2 Chron 6:23). " He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works." (Rev 22:11). Sanctification is an essential part of justification. Christ’s passion and death merited for us not only the forgiveness of sin, but also the gift of grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. This grace heals and sanctifies the soul. It communicates divine life into the soul and grants us the interior disposition to live and act in accord with God’s will so that we are justified by how we conduct our lives. Justification is an actual interior cleansing of the soul by the infusion of God’s sanctifying grace which renders the soul justified.

:heaven:

 

[Marybeloved]

Hello, Good fella,

Thanks for this edifying teaching. Good food for the soul, this Sunday morning as I head to Mass:thumbsup:, to receive my Lord in the flesh and get an increase of even more of this justifying, sanctifying, hallowing, unmerited grace of Our savior Jesus Christ. I’m tempted to shamelessly ask you to comment a bit more on this and the sacraments, so that our protestant brothers and sisters (I confess- me too!) can get a bigger dose of the beauty of Catholic faith.

Thanx so much!!

Happy Sunday.

 

[finkmm]

Mary was conceived without sin through the grace of God. Period. Blessed Sunday to all!

 

[rinnie]

What do you think grace is Good? Is it not the justification of an individual FROM THEIR SINS by the sacrifice of the perfect Lamb of God?

Take a look at this passage

Rom.3
20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Jesus is full of grace because He is the source of grace. Everyone else that is full of grace is a benificiary of The grace provided by Christ. What that means is just like this passage says we all being sinners cannot be justified by our works in the keeping of the law but only “by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.”

This is what it means to be “full of grace”. That Mary just like the rest of us that believe is the beneficiary of the grace of God through redemption FROM HER SINS through the atoning sacrifice of her perfect son on the cross.

Richard what do you think GRACE from God is bad YES Richard GOD paid for MANS sin by HIS GRACE. See Grace is GOOD, its by his GRACE that we can enter heaven. IT is by his GRACE that we can do ANY good.

See Richard here is how it goes without Gods grace we can do nothing. WITH his grace we can do anything.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Luke 2:22-24
[22] And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
[23] (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
[24] And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

I may be wrong but it says the days of her purification. That means that as with all women she was unclean under the law of God.

Judges 5:24
[24] Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Both Mary and Jael lived in the time of the old testament. Mary was considered blessed among women and I won’t take from that but Jael was blessed above women in the tent.
The tent being the household of faith through types and shadows.

Acts 1:13-15
[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Mary the mother of Jesus was in the upper room and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like everyone else.

Acts 2:1-4
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I may be wrong but what I read is that not only was Mary with them but received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like the others. Without Jesus she wasn’t getting into heaven.

John 19:25-27

[25] Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If Mary had ascended as some say the Lord would not have given her a son to keep her. It is also of note that he didn’t say “mother” or “blessed mother” but woman.

Luke 23:42-43
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I also see where the Lord told the repentant thief that he would be with him in paradise that day but makes no mention of Mary ascending.

Acts 12:12
[12] And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

It appears that Mary was still with the son the Lord gave her to. Evidently she didn’t ascend unto heaven. Neither was she allowed to be on her own.

Maybe I’m wrong but when I see this much that bears witness that Mary was a virgin given a very special task of bearing the Lord I see nothing past that to say she ascended nor was holy. Scripture even disputes her virginity after Jesus in a couple of places.

Matthew 1:25
[25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Scripture says he knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son. It does not say he never knew her which is also backed by scripture.

Matthew 13:55,56
[55] Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

I just cannot rationalize a woman that bore children after giving birth to our Lord being exalted above her measure. I agree that she was blessed among women. I would never take that from her so to speak but when she gave birth to his brothers and sisters she wasn’t a virgin. There was only one immaculate conception. That was Jesus.
Then when he addressed her as woman and no title after even admitting that of prophets born of women there was none greater than John the baptist. If she was divine he would have born witness to that.
The word says that he is the faithful and true witness. He would have born witness unto her.
Even when someone said blessed are the paps thou hast sucked he said Blessed are those who hear the word of God and do it.

There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin. I don’t even see in the word of God these claims are that are made about her. I use the same King James Bible the early church used in King James time. But there’s nothing to bear witness in the word.

Sorry that I can’t agree.
May God bless,

 

[CopticChristian]

Luke 2:22-24
[22] And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
[23] (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
[24] And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

I may be wrong but it says the days of her purification. That means that as with all women she was unclean under the law of God.
I just cannot rationalize a woman that bore children after giving birth to our Lord being exalted above her measure. I agree that she was blessed among women. I would never take that from her so to speak but when she gave birth to his brothers and sisters she wasn’t a virgin. There was only one immaculate conception. That was Jesus.
Then when he addressed her as woman and no title after even admitting that of prophets born of women there was none greater than John the baptist. If she was divine he would have born witness to that.
The word says that he is the faithful and true witness. He would have born witness unto her.
Even when someone said blessed are the paps thou hast sucked he said Blessed are those who hear the word of God and do it.

There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin. I don’t even see in the word of God these claims are that are made about her. I use the same King James Bible the early church used in King James time. But there’s nothing to bear witness in the word.

Sorry that I can’t agree.
May God bless,

I am terribly disgusted that you have the audacity to post this verse prior to thinking and then drawing insulting conclusion that embarass our Lord and his Mother. Your quoting this verse saddened me.

[22] And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
[23] (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord

In response to you may be wrong. I think you are terribly wrong, impudent, unscholarly, unerudite, and ignoble.

Go to this website and see in the Greek the translation is not “her purification”

interlinearbible.org/luke/2-22.htm

Compare that with the NIV

When the time of their purification according to the Law of Moses had been completed, Joseph and Mary took him to Jerusalem to present him to the Lord

Compare that with the God’s world translation

After the days required by Moses’ Teachings to make a mother clean had passed, Joseph and Mary went to Jerusalem. They took Jesus to present him to the Lord.

There are others and I won’t waste time with the rest of the verses. You have concluded that this verse fits your conclusion and therefore like a non-denominational Protestant that thinks you know how to teach someone, like an automoton, taught by someone else you bring this slovenly type of exegesis to this forum, you are like a savant that knows no better than to spit out what you have been taught causing me to wonder what other sorts of cobwebs and urchins lurk in your mind through misinformation and the mishandeling of Scripture. Does some homework and get back to me.

All this means is that Mary was there on that day. It could have been the day of atonement. Mary was there on the day of atonement. That is all it means.

 

[PRmerger]

There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin.

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that Catholics proclaim Mary to be divine.

The Church claims that she is a creature, not divine.

Perhaps you heard a non-Catholic pastor claim that the Church teaches she is divine? But you never read it in any of the teachings of the Catholic faith.

 

[PRmerger]

I may be wrong but what I read is that not only was Mary with them but received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like the others. Without Jesus she wasn’t getting into heaven.

This is quite Catholic of you to say, Frank!

 

[Marybeloved]

Luke 2:22-24I may be wrong but it says the days of her purification. That means that as with all women she was unclean under the law of God.

Mary was a perfect Jew- Did you expect her to disobey God’s law about what women should do after child-birth? Jesus fulfilled all the laws, including going up to the temple at twelve and through-out his adulthood when Jews went to offer sacrifice- Do you therefore believe that Jesus must have needed a sacrifice for sin therefore he was a sinner?

Both Mary and Jael lived in the time of the old testament. Mary was considered blessed among women and I won’t take from that but Jael was blessed above women in the tent.
The tent being the household of faith through types and shadows.

And Mary was blessed among all women who ever lived, Moreover, the Archangel called her “full of grace”. Do you understand grace to take away sin or not? Mary was filed with it, to the point that this was her name before the Archangel (and God who sent him)- your name is your identity- what sets you apart from others- where was her sin in a soul and body completely taken over with grace?

Mary the mother of Jesus was in the upper room and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like everyone else.

Mary was part of the community of believers- You see she was the very first Christian ever. God the Holy Ghost had already been breathed on the Apostles by Christ himself right before he ascended giving them the power of God himself, Christ himself to forgive and retain sins- Do you think they should have stayed out of the upper room when the Holy Ghost descended?

Jesus had just ascended to heaven- Who was supposed to lead them now? On the day of Pentecost, they were a community bound together by a shared belief in Christ- When God the Holy Spirit descended, my friend, they were constituted by him one single entity- the mystical body of Christ, in whom all grace is found. This body is absolutely Holy, spotless and without blemish- because it is the very body of Christ who is perfect and without blemish. This is why when we sin mortally, separation from God entails also separation from the body. So the church is actually made up of saints! I have no idea why you would expect the holiest of her members to be excluded:shrug:.

Without Jesus she wasn’t getting into heaven.

There again with the false assumptions. Did you not read about 4 or 5 posts ahead of you that explained rather clearly that grace, including that which permeated Mary’s entire being was ALL because of Jesus?

[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

It’s good that you quote this scripture, it’ll be important below.

If Mary had ascended as some say the Lord would not have given her a son to keep her. It is also of note that he didn’t say “mother” or “blessed mother” but woman.

Several things here:
-No one ever said that Mary “ascended”- She was not God, had never been to heaven, had no power to take her body there- She was assumed there-Taken by Christ himself who did have the power- This is a fact of Apostolic tradition- Nothing contrary has ever been believed by Christians (until Protestants in the last few centuries). You should read the threads on Apostolic tradition on the apologetics session- We can’t discuss that here. I’ll only add, about the assumption- Do you have any idea how jealously the early Christians kept, guarded and even fought over relics of the saints? Anyone who ever had contact with our lord, the Apostles themselves, martyrs, saints- They were all kept jealously and christian places claimed the bodies and relics of various saints. Mary, as you pointed out was a member of the church, she lived with st. John, ened her life amongst Christians- Why did the church not claim her body like with every other saint? No body ever claimed her body! Not one- despite the fact that she was considered exceptionally holy from very early one and was the Lord’s own mother- Don’t you think it strange? Apparently all the early Christians knew that there was no body to be claimed!!

And “Jesus did not call her mother”- I wonder why people like this so much- So do you believe that she wasn’t his mother? Is that the point people try to prove with this??? Well, God the Holy Spirit did call her that- He inspired St. Elizabeth when under his rapture to say “Who am I that My Lord’s mother should come to me?” Secondly, That word “woman” also refers to the name of Eve who was the woman, and Mary had taken her place as the obedient woman in the new order of grace. Thirdly, the name itself when used to address a woman by her son, was given in respect and was actually something that is close to how we may use lady or madam at present- It was no sign of disrespect, and Jesus used it because Mary was the obedient woman of the new dispensation.

I also see where the Lord told the repentant thief that he would be with him in paradise that day but makes no mention of Mary ascending.

Now this is rather strange- The doctrine of the assumption says clearly that Mary was taken to heaven, body and soul- at the end of her life!!! How could she be in paradise when she was at that time at the foot of the cross grieving her suffering son???

To be continued…

 

[Marybeloved]

Now, see what you do in these quotes:

It appears that Mary was still with the son the Lord gave her to. Evidently she didn’t ascend unto heaven. Neither was she allowed to be on her own.

and then you say

Scripture says he knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son. It does not say he never knew her which is also backed by scripture.I just cannot rationalize a woman that bore children after giving birth to our Lord being exalted above her measure.

because of

Matthew 13:55,56
[55] Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

You count no less than seven “siblings” of Christ and say in the same breath that Mary was not allowed to be on her own!!! You clearly can see the obvious- That Our Lord knew that in his dying he was leaving her alone! How could that be, if she had at least seven other children left to care for her??? And why would Jesus even provide for her future care??? She had seven other children!!! And him giving her to a stranger when there were seven other kids bound by custom and law to care for her??? I hope you can see the obvious here my friend.

And just when did Mary give birth to all these children??? When Jesus was twelve years old, there were no other kids**- At which point did these seven show up?

**You see my friend, you are a victim or heir of the same western mindset. You must understand that Jesus’ culture was not your own. In the middle East and Here in Africa- to the present day- “brothers” and “sisters” mean people of one extended family or close relatives- Even members of the same age-group in a clan are called brothers. Western specificity in language is alien- First Cousin, Second Cousin, Step- mother, step-brother!! Here, not only step-mothers but aunts also are “mother” and uncles “father”. The bible was not translated by ancient or modern middle-easterners but by westerners, who have very precise meanings for words that have a broad meaning in other languages and cultures. In the OT, aren’t Abraham and Lot, called brothers even though we know they are uncle and nephew?

And about the word “until”- that Joseph knew her not until she gave birth? I’ll let this excerpt I found on this site answer you orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/evervirgin.aspx

***But the word “until” does not signify that Mary remained a virgin only until a certain time. The word “until” and words similar to it often signify eternity. In the Sacred Scripture it is said of Christ: *In His days shall shine forth righteousness and an abundance of peace, ***until *the moon be taken away *(Ps. 71:7), but this does not mean that when there shall no longer be a moon at the end of the world, God’s righteousness shall no longer be; precisely then, rather, will it triumph. And what does it mean when it says: *For He must reign, *until *He hath put all enemies under His feet? *(ICor. 15:25). Is the Lord then to reign only for the time until His enemies shall be under His feet?! And David, in the fourth Psalm of the Ascents says: *As the eyes of the handmaid look unto the hands of her mistress, so do our eyes look unto the Lord our God, *until *He take pity on us *(Ps. 122:2). Thus, the Prophet will have his eyes toward the Lord until he obtains mercy, but having obtained it he will direct them to the earth? (Blessed Jerome, “On the Ever-Virginity of Blessed Mary.”) The Saviour in the Gospel says to the Apostles (Matt. 28:20): *Lo, I am with you always, even *unto *the end of the world. Thus, after the end of the world the Lord will step away from His disciples, and then, when they shall judge the twelve tribes of Israel upon twelve thrones, they will not have the promised communion with the Lord? (Blessed Jerome, op. cit.)

Then when he addressed her as woman and no title after even admitting that of prophets born of women there was none greater than John the baptist. If she was divine he would have born witness to that. The word says that he is the faithful and true witness. He would have born witness unto her.

God and an Archangel did bear witness to it, right in your own bible, you just don’t want to give it any value!

Even when someone said blessed are the paps thou hast sucked he said Blessed are those who hear the word of God and do it.

Precisely! Mary was the obedient one who said “let it be done to me” and her son praises her, not just because of what God has done to and for her (allowed her to be his mom and nursed him with all the privileges that entails), but what she did- which is hearing God’s word and obeying, perfectly!

There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin. I don’t even see in the word of God these claims are that are made about her. I use the same King James Bible the early church used in King James time. But there’s nothing to bear witness in the word.,

To the contrary, my friend, there’s so much in the Holy books that tell you the truth, if only you were willing to lay your protestant assumptions aside and read it with fresh eyes, from Genesis to Revelations- so much my friend. I pray that you can one day see it.

 

[Marybeloved]

My friend, Frank,

Luke 2:22-24There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin.

The word Divine means God, Why are you implying that Catholics call Mary God?

I perceive that you are of the mindset of the people who think that “sinless” means Divine or God, and who think that “human” means sinners as per nature, so that a sinless human must be divine or God- I ask you, do you believe that the angels in Heaven are sinners? Does that mean you think that the unfallen angels, who are without sin, are also God? Even more clearly, Do you think that God created Adam and Eve sinners? Do you think he mixed in sin as an ingredient of their nature along with the “dust” and the “breath of life”? If you believe that God made Adam perfectly sinless (he did!), does that mean you believe that Adam was God who fell/sinned and then became a human- a sinner?? Sin is not a part of human nature- It’s a distortion of that nature! Sinless is the natural human condition, sanctity is the natural human condition as God designed us-it’s fallen nature that Christ came to restore to what it’s supposed to be! Please don’t fall into the trap of thinking- Human means sin! If that were true, then Jesus did not become man and our entire faith is a lie!

I use the same King James Bible the early church used in King James time. But there’s nothing to bear witness in the word.

You should read Church History, Frank. Do you think “the Early Church” existed in the 16th Century when your King James Bible was made? Who is king James?- A King of England of the 2nd millennium after Christ- That is NOT the Early Church, my dear friend! That’s a lot more than 1,000 years, after the Early Church! The Early Church used the Septuagint, a Greek Bible for the Old testament, and languages that have no connection to the English you read in your King James Bible, or any English, for that matter. As a Protestant, you think Christian History goes back to Martin Luther and the other first Protestants- It goes back a long, long, long time beyond that, my friend. Please read the Apologetics forums on Christian History, it’s more than you’ve been taught to assume.

Peace!

 

[Frankk]

Matthew 13:55,56
[55] Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

There are a number of possible responses to this point:

I think it is well known that there is no word for cousin in Aramaic. All close relatives were referred to as brothers and/or sisters.

Polygamy was common amongst 1st Century Jews. It is quite possible that Joseph had other wives.

The clincher, in my view, is the scene at the foot of the Cross. Even today in the Middle East, if you’ve ever travelled/lived there, it very quickly becomes obvious that at the core of their society [amongst both Jews and Arabs] is ‘Family’. This would be even more deeply ingrained in the 1st Century.
The idea that Jesus would give his mother to John and John to his mother as her son and that she would go and live with him whilst she had other sons and daughters would be more than an outrageous scandal: it would be totally unthinkable. At the very least John [and his family] would expect the very worst of reprisals from Mary’s other sons and wider family.

Sometimes we don’t need divine inspiration to understand the Bible - just common sense can bring us to the truth. Any Jew [or pagan] at the time would read or, more probably, hear that passage and know exactly what the situation was. No elaboration or additional comment would be needed.

 

[gerhardc]

I like your writing. We might not agree but thank you nevertheless.

Grace is certainly good for the soul’s sanctification and as an aid for us to lead a holy life by God’s goodness. Grace is not merely God’s favour to us. As a Protestant, you think of righteousness in one dimension: it’s legal and behavioural quality. Legal righteousness is forensic and external to the individual and is acquired solely by God’s decree and the imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to the individual’s account. In other words, God declares the individual righteous by only taking into account the righteousness of Christ while the individual is justified only by placing his faith in Christ’s merits while still in sin. His sin can only be covered or concealed by the blood of the Lamb, but never completely blotted out.

Not sure all Protestants will agree with this: "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." (Colossians 2:13-15)
Good Fella;8470959:

Meanwhile behavioural righteousness is a growing disposition or inclination to doing good which occurs only after justification. It acquires sanctification for the individual, but does not justify him before God.

On the other hand, Catholics view righteousness in two dimensions: quality and quantity. Righteousness almost always means intrinsic righteousness: an ontological transformation and growth effected by divine grace. The individual isn’t declared innocent and just while in a state of guilt. God’s grace actually heals and cleanses him. He literally becomes clean and just in God’s sight and does not just appear to be so before men. Thus the individual acquires more righteousness and increases his justification before God by doing good works with the help of God’s grace. Justification isn’t a one-time event, and nor are we saved by faith alone. Hence, intrinsic righteousness - as opposed to external righteousness - is a righteousness inherent to and part of the individual.

Compare Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."

St. John has this righteousness in mind when he writes in his First Letter (3:3): Everyone who has this hope in him makes himself pure as he is pure.

God does not only declare people righteous as if by legal decree

Compare Romans 10:10 - "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.". It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

("Have mercy on me God in your kindness…and blot out my transgression

"), but He actually goes a step further by actually transforming the fabric of our being through the infusion of His sanctifying grace which renders us just in His sight (“Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a steadfast spirit within me.”).

Your reference to David’s Psalm 51 refers to justification through the Law (as opposed to justification through grace by means of Jesus fulfilling of the Law - refer Colossians 2:13-15), which is as good as Moses having declared into Law: “on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised”. Neither Moses’ Law nor David’s means to justification remains following Jesus’ victory through His death and resurrection.

Sanctifying grace is the only formal cause of justification. Scripture portrays justification as both a divine declaration and an interior transformation. Psalm 51 uses both legal and intrinsic terms which supports traditional Catholic teaching.

Your reference to David’s Psalm 51 refers to justification through the Law (as opposed to justification through grace by means of Jesus fulfilling of the Law - refer Colossians 2:13-15), which is as good as Moses having declared into Law: “on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised”. Neither Moses’ Law nor David’s means to justification remains following Jesus’ victory through His death and resurrection.

 

[gerhardc]

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing (1 Jn 1:7-9). The word “cleanse” comes from the Greek word katharizo, which means an actual infused cleansing, not an imputed pretended washing away of sin. Justification initially occurs at the beginning of the Christian life when communicated through the sacrament of Baptism.

Whilst Baptism shows our dying to self and living to Christ it is not baptism per se that justifies us, but faith in the resurrected Christ: Romans 10:10 - “with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”. It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

Beautiful Scripture (1 John 1:9). Just to be sure we’re on the same page, *sanctification *and *justification *is not the same thing. The latter makes you in right standing with God. The former makes you set apart or holy for Him. I think we agree we are in need of both. But they are not the same thing.

On this occasion God completely cleanses the recipient of all sin by bestowing on him sanctifying grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, granting him new life by incorporation into the Body of Christ and adoption into the family of God as a partaker of the divine life. This** justification cannot be earned or merited by any preceding act of ours - not by faith** or works - because it is a free gift from God in his mercy made possible strictly by the merits of Christ. Provided we remain in the state of sanctifying grace, we cannot lose our justification before God.

Compare Romans 10:10 - “with the **heart one believes **unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”. It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

 

[rinnie]

Luke 2:22-24
[22] And when the days of her purification according to the law of Moses were accomplished, they brought him to Jerusalem, to present him to the Lord;
[23] (As it is written in the law of the Lord, Every male that openeth the womb shall be called holy to the Lord
[24] And to offer a sacrifice according to that which is said in the law of the Lord, A pair of turtledoves, or two young pigeons.

I may be wrong but it says the days of her purification. That means that as with all women she was unclean under the law of God.

Judges 5:24
[24] Blessed above women shall Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite be, blessed shall she be above women in the tent.

Both Mary and Jael lived in the time of the old testament. Mary was considered blessed among women and I won’t take from that but Jael was blessed above women in the tent.
The tent being the household of faith through types and shadows.

Acts 1:13-15
[13] And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where abode both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James.
[14] These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.
[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Mary the mother of Jesus was in the upper room and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like everyone else.

Acts 2:1-4
[1] And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

I may be wrong but what I read is that not only was Mary with them but received the baptism of the Holy Ghost like the others. Without Jesus she wasn’t getting into heaven.

John 19:25-27

[25] Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.
[26] When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
[27] Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

If Mary had ascended as some say the Lord would not have given her a son to keep her. It is also of note that he didn’t say “mother” or “blessed mother” but woman.

Luke 23:42-43
[42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

I also see where the Lord told the repentant thief that he would be with him in paradise that day but makes no mention of Mary ascending.

Acts 12:12
[12] And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

It appears that Mary was still with the son the Lord gave her to. Evidently she didn’t ascend unto heaven. Neither was she allowed to be on her own.

Maybe I’m wrong but when I see this much that bears witness that Mary was a virgin given a very special task of bearing the Lord I see nothing past that to say she ascended nor was holy. Scripture even disputes her virginity after Jesus in a couple of places.

Matthew 1:25
[25] And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Scripture says he knew her not till she had brought forth her first born son. It does not say he never knew her which is also backed by scripture.

Matthew 13:55,56
[55] Is not this the carpenter’s son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
[56] And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?

I just cannot rationalize a woman that bore children after giving birth to our Lord being exalted above her measure. I agree that she was blessed among women. I would never take that from her so to speak but when she gave birth to his brothers and sisters she wasn’t a virgin. There was only one immaculate conception. That was Jesus.
Then when he addressed her as woman and no title after even admitting that of prophets born of women there was none greater than John the baptist. If she was divine he would have born witness to that.
The word says that he is the faithful and true witness. He would have born witness unto her.
Even when someone said blessed are the paps thou hast sucked he said Blessed are those who hear the word of God and do it.

There’s just too much going against the Catholic claim that Mary was divine and without sin. I don’t even see in the word of God these claims are that are made about her. I use the same King James Bible the early church used in King James time. But there’s nothing to bear witness in the word.

Sorry that I can’t agree.
May God bless,

Sorry there buddy, but what you are saying just don’t work. Mary went to the temple because she obeyed the human law. If you are saying Mary was full of sin, then what about Jesus, Why was he taken to the temple then?

 

[Richard_Kastner]

God’s grace certainly isn’t evil. So why do you ask if it is good? Grace is certainly good for the soul’s sanctification and as an aid for us to lead a holy life by God’s goodness.

My use of the word Good there was a reference to you, Good Fella, and not to grace hence the cap Sorry for the confusion.

Grace is not merely God’s favour to us. As a Protestant, you think of righteousness in one dimension: it’s legal and behavioural quality. Legal righteousness is forensic and external to the individual and is acquired solely by God’s decree and the imputation of Christ’s alien righteousness to the individual’s account. In other words, God declares the individual righteous by only taking into account the righteousness of Christ while the individual is justified only by placing his faith in Christ’s merits while still in sin. His sin can only be covered or concealed by the blood of the Lamb, but never completely blotted out. Meanwhile behavioural righteousness is a growing disposition or inclination to doing good which occurs only after justification. It acquires sanctification for the individual, but does not justify him before God.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

God does not only declare people righteous as if by legal decree (“Have mercy on me God in your kindness…and blot out my transgression”), but He actually goes a step further by actually transforming the fabric of our being through the infusion of His sanctifying grace which renders us just in His sight (“Create in me a clean heart, O God, and put a steadfast spirit within me.”). Sanctifying grace is the only formal cause of justification. Scripture portrays justification as both a divine declaration and an interior transformation. Psalm 51 uses both legal and intrinsic terms which supports traditional Catholic teaching.

Here’s Psalm 51

Psalm 51
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.
14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.
15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.
16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.
17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.
19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

David certainly says nothing here about him being intrisically righteous, but he does talk about God transforming him. Verse 17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise. This would certainly imply that the only was to be justified before God is to relinquish all self-righteousness and fall on the Rock of Ages.

But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, then we have fellowship with each other, and the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin. If we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from every wrongdoing (1 Jn 1:7-9). The word “cleanse” comes from the Greek word katharizo, which means an actual infused cleansing, not an imputed pretended washing away of sin. Justification initially occurs at the beginning of the Christian life when communicated through the sacrament of Baptism. On this occasion God completely cleanses the recipient of all sin by bestowing on him sanctifying grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit, granting him new life by incorporation into the Body of Christ and adoption into the family of God as a partaker of the divine life. This justification cannot be earned or merited by any preceding act of ours - not by faith or works - because it is a free gift from God in his mercy made possible strictly by the merits of Christ. Provided we remain in the state of sanctifying grace, we cannot lose our justification before God.

Our justification occures at the moment we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior. Baptism is the outward expression of what has already occured within us.

 

[Richard_Kastner]

This is where progressive justification enters the picture. There is no condemnation for those who have buried themselves together with Christ as long as they walk in the light and not according to the flesh. St. Paul writes:* Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has passed away, behold the new has come* (2 Cor 5:17). So righteousness may actually be obtained for ourselves by practising what is righteous and pleasing to God. Our justification is completed through the righteousness wrought by us in God’s grace.

Again, we are only partially justified by our faith in Christ’s sacrifice? The rest we work out? So Christ’s sacrifice wasn’t quite enough? we have to purchase the rest with our works?

Then hear Thou from heaven, and act and judge Thy servants, punishing the wicked by bringing his way on his own head and justifying the righteous by giving him according to his righteousness (2 Chron 6:23). " He that hurteth, let him hurt still: and he that is filthy, let him be filthy still; and he that is just, let him be justified still: and he that is holy, let him be sanctified still. Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to render to every man according to his works." (Rev 22:11). Sanctification is an essential part of justification. Christ’s passion and death merited for us not only the forgiveness of sin, but also the gift of grace by the power of the Holy Spirit. This grace heals and sanctifies the soul. It communicates divine life into the soul and grants us the interior disposition to live and act in accord with God’s will so that we are justified by how we conduct our lives. Justification is an actual interior cleansing of the soul by the infusion of God’s sanctifying grace which renders the soul justified.

:heaven:

Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Romans 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Ephesians 2:8,9
8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[KathleenGee]

Richard,

As you are an Adventist theologian, how would you explain the flesh of Mary? Why would the Lord chose her flesh and not others?