Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[Marybeloved]

Whilst Baptism shows our dying to self and living to Christ it is not baptism per se that justifies us, but faith in the resurrected Christ: Romans 10:10 - "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.". It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

Baptism does more than just "show" dying to self and rising to life in Christ…It in fact effects it- by it the soul is born into the new life.

St. Peter said in Acts 2:38*** Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins*. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.** St Paul also says in Romans 6:4 that: We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

Our Lord himself is the source of the Apostles’ teaching. He says clearly in St. John’s Gospel 3:5*** “I solemnly assure you, no one can enter into God’s kingdom without being begotten of water and Spirit*” And in St. Mathew’s Gospel 28:19-20*** “Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations*. Baptize them in the name ‘of the father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”** And in St. Mark 16:16*** “Whoever believes and is baptized** will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.*”

Clearly no empty ritualism is taught here, meant only for show, but an actual means of forgiving sins, receiving the new life of Christ, receiving the Holy Ghost, and receiving salvation! Jesus did not institute mere rituals without any power, similar to what he himself condemned the Pharisees for, but a true means of salvation (here salvation means only unmerited justification or new life of grace- not an absolute guarantee to heaven).

Beautiful Scripture (1 John 1:9). Just to be sure we’re on the same page, *sanctification *and *justification *is not the same thing. The latter makes you in right standing with God. The former makes you set apart or holy for Him. I think we agree we are in need of both. But they are not the same thing.

The words do not mean what you say here.

Justification is defined on New Advent as "A biblio-ecclesiastical term; which denotes the tra***nsforming of the sinner from the state of unrighteousness to the state of holiness and sonship of God."*It’s holiness and righteousness (another word for Holiness) which is the work of God Alone. It is: Forgiveness of all sin and birth of new life in the soul that was not there before, a new man is born- A spiritual organism that was not there before- This is Grace. Sanctification is the growth of this new life in the soul, the continual strengthening of the new man against the old man and his allies, the world and the Devil, until complete victory is achieved and the new life has taken over and the Christian can say with St. Paul "No longer do I live, but Christ lives in me"

Compare Romans 10:10 - *“with the **heart one believes ***unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.”. It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.

There are two aspects to one’s salvation that people often fail to distinguish. There’s what the man does, and what God does. Man’s part is faith (as you put it,St. James kind of faith), the acceptance- but what does he accept? A gift! One that cannot at all be merited **not even by faith! **Because it’s the Life of God himself which makes us true sons who partake of it- How could anything you do by even the greatest faith earn it in any way? No-one can! That’s why God became one of us, so that he could! Our faith, trust, confidence and acceptance of God’s gift does not earn the gift- It’s merely the prerequisite for it due to free will, our own co-operation. The Life is always unmerited, unearned, by even the greatest faith we can muster.

Peace!

 

[Richard_Kastner]

Richard,

As you are an Adventist theologian, how would you explain the flesh of Mary? Why would the Lord chose her flesh and not others?

He chose her because He chose her. I don’t pretend to know the mind of God except for what He chooses to reveal to me in His word.
Adventist theologian?

 

[rinnie]

He chose her because He chose her. I don’t pretend to know the mind of God except for what He chooses to reveal to me in His word.
Adventist theologian?

And he also chose to save her from all Sin at the moment of her conception. HAIL MARY FULL OF GRACE.

So you are correct Richard while you nor anyone else knows the MIND of God we do know what he reveals to us through the Church that he appeared to on the day of Pentecost. Which is the RCC.

With that said it is revealed to the Church that Mary is FULL OF GRACE, so that means there is no sin.

Are you full of God’s Grace Richard? Have you ever sinned? God choose to save Mary from any kind of Sin so that she would be Spotless and Pure for the SOn of Man to enter into her womb.

Richard why would God not do this? Why does it shock you so?

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Coptic Christian,
Let me start by saying that in my posts I tried to keep a Christ like manner of saying what I believe while using terms such as “I may be wrong” to give the impression I do not think of myself as a know-it-all. I also use such terms as I do not wish to be mistaken for one who attempts to draw others out of the belief they have.

Now as for you.
Your terms “I was disgusted” and the name calling to follow was anything but Christ like. They were direct slams against me. Not what I believe. It was a childish tirade because you got mad.

I expect as much though from a member of a group that was involved with the Spanish Inquisition. Real brotherly love.

The word of God is very clear in that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and it is also written that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.
It is also written that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.
On the island of Patmos John saw the revelation in which Christ was the only one that was worthy to take the book from his Father and open it.
The souls of just men made perfect and the entire host of heaven fall on their face and worship Christ.
Mary is not even listed in the book of Revelation.

Mary went three days with Joseph not knowing Jesus tarried behind. If she was as anointed as everyone says she should have known he wasn’t with her and Joseph. By today’s standards in the United States DCFS would have taken him from her for being an unfit mother.

Maybe you read all these web sites that you offer me to read but I stick to the Bible and only the Bible.

Nowhere in the word of God do you read that Jesus gave Mary any honour above any other woman. And according to John on the island of Patmos you don’t see where mary is making any intercession for people. Only Jesus.

Lastly to the others who answered with a degree of a Christian attitude I am sorry if this post seems harsh.
Sometimes when you bring out the truth it riles those who know they are wrong.
You can’t be nice to some folk.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

I would like to add this.

I see Mary being referred to as the new Eve, or mother of all living and mother of God.

While Mary was on earth she was the mother of God. Once she put off the tabernacle she is just another person that died and went to heaven.

It is written that Jesus is the second Adam.
The first Adam a living soul sinned when he hearkened to his wife.

For Mary to be the second or new Eve she would have to be married to God or the second Adam.

The second Adam, Jesus is a quickening Spirit having no wife.

The second Adam was a carpenter in the days of his flesh and ascended unto God to present himself a sacrifice acceptable and without spot.

It is admirable that some may think so highly about Mary but it just is not true. She was blessed beyond all women as far as I am concerned since she was chosen to bear Jesus. In that I agree whole heartedly. But to exalt her to make intercession for saints when the word of God is clear in that only Jesus is that mediator is heresy.

Having said thus believe what you wish.

 

[PRmerger]

Mary went three days with Joseph not knowing Jesus tarried behind. If she was as anointed as everyone says she should have known he wasn’t with her and Joseph.

Are you saying that being “anointed” gives a person some sort of supernatural knowledge?

If so, is there a Scripture verse you use to support this belief that being “anointed” means this?

 

[Marybeloved]

I expect as much though from a member of a group that was involved with the Spanish Inquisition. Real brotherly love.

Frank, you think insulting all Catholics because CopticChristian made you mad is brotherly love??

The word of God is very clear in that Jesus Christ is the only way to heaven and it is also written that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.
It is also written that there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life. No man cometh unto the Father but by me.
On the island of Patmos John saw the revelation in which Christ was the only one that was worthy to take the book from his Father and open it.
The souls of just men made perfect and the entire host of heaven fall on their face and worship Christ.

I guess we’re no longer discussing mary’s sinlessness any more, now- Are we? I’m curious, Frank- Did you come here to refute the beliefs of the actual Catholic Church, or the one in protestant fundamentalists’ imaginations? I’ll have to disappoint you, my friend. It’s been said on this very thread as I told you after your earlier post, and in responses to it, that Catholics credit one man alone for the entire work of salvation and renewal and blessings of all mankind, including Mary- His name is Jesus Christ. Now you can inquire from Catholics what our beliefs are, or you can proceed to tell us what they are or blindly follow slanders of anti-catholic polemicists- It’s up to you. But I would hope that a sincere person, a Christian! would be more interested in truth as opposed to polemics.

Mary is not even listed in the book of Revelation.

Oh, really! Have you ever taken a look at the 12th chapter of Revelations? Just asking…

Mary went three days with Joseph not knowing Jesus tarried behind. If she was as anointed as everyone says she should have known he wasn’t with her and Joseph.

My friend- Are you giving Mary divine attributes now? Who said she was all-knowing? Jesus, deliberately separated himself from them- As he explained to Mary when she asked “Why have you done this to us?” -He had to be about his father’s business.

By today’s standards in the United States DCFS would have taken him from her for being an unfit mother.

Ok, Now I side with CatholicCoptic- You deserve a good old smacking in the mouth for this one Calling the woman declared blessed among women by your Lord and Creator, an unfit mother- the woman called the Lord’s mother by The Holy Spirit? Full of Grace? The Lord is with you?- An unfit mother- Shame on You!!! You think God was asleep when he chose her?- Are you now wiser than the Creator of the universe? Please Frank, Do NOT do that again.:tsktsk: It’s called blasphemy :sad_yes:- not a good thing :nope:.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Marybeloved,
For your information I said according to the laws of the US today and not that I think she was an unfit mother. Please get it right.
For the part about knowing if the child tarried behind.
Any person that has that great a duty as to bear and raise the Lord would make sure no harm came unto him. This did point out her weakness as a human and not divine.
If you read the prophets you will find that those who were anointed of God were told the secret things. It is part of the anointing.

Also, the reference to the woman in Revelation 12 is the clothed with the sun and the moon was under her feet. That is not Mary.
Another point is that the angel told Mary her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:13) was with child. For Mary to be some sort of divine individual Elizabeth would have to be as well. She could not have an earthly cousin if she was divine.

Also, if Mary was divine and in heaven at the time of the war in which satan was cast out she would know the future.
If she knew the future she would know the tomb was empty and not bother going to it to anoint his body.

Another point is that Elijah is recorded as being taken up in a chariot without tasting death. In Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God and was not. God took him.
Those who were close to God the scriptures bear witness to.
Nothing is written about Mary being that close to God. It is written that she was highly favoured of God which I believe but not that she was divine.
You seem to have missed that point in your anger.

It strikes me odd that if anyone speaks against Mary everyone comes to anger while any mention that Jesus himself said that he was the only way to God (ONLY-NOT WITH MARY) it gets overlooked.

Now, as for why I came her.
It was originally to see where we may view things alike.
It all was good until I posted against Mary being divine.
Then everyone got hateful.
Have a good day and justify your views any way in which you want.
Still in all.
Mary was blessed but not divine.
She can not save anyone.
She can not pray for people.
Only Jesus can save as only he was the perfect sacrifice.

 

[brumano]

I would like to add this.

I see Mary being referred to as the new Eve, or mother of all living and mother of God.

While Mary was on earth she was the mother of God. Once she put off the tabernacle she is just another person that died and went to heaven.

It is written that Jesus is the second Adam.
The first Adam a living soul sinned when he hearkened to his wife.

For Mary to be the second or new Eve she would have to be married to God or the second Adam.

The second Adam, Jesus is a quickening Spirit having no wife.

The second Adam was a carpenter in the days of his flesh and ascended unto God to present himself a sacrifice acceptable and without spot.

It is admirable that some may think so highly about Mary but it just is not true. She was blessed beyond all women as far as I am concerned since she was chosen to bear Jesus. In that I agree whole heartedly. But to exalt her to make intercession for saints when the word of God is clear in that only Jesus is that mediator is heresy.

Having said thus believe what you wish.

 

[Frankk]

Marybeloved,
For your information I said according to the laws of the US today and not that I think she was an unfit mother.

Which is utterly, utterly irrelevant to the discussion. Such distractions lead absolutely nowhere. Christ chose to die by crucifixion. Does this mean US States which have the death penalty are, somehow, better than those which don’t?

No, it’s a rhetorical question not requiring an answer.

After 23 pages of posts one thing is clear. Catholics revere Mary. (We could discuss the difference between Latria and Hyperdulia but I don’t think it would help) Catholics accept the Church’s teaching on the Blessed Virgin Mother of God. Protestants don’t.

One side is not going to persuade the other so the debate is completely sterile; therefore, it is pointless.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Frank, you think insulting all Catholics because CopticChristian made you mad is brotherly love??

Ok, Now I side with CatholicCoptic- You deserve a good old smacking in the mouth for this one Calling the woman declared blessed among women by your Lord and Creator, an unfit mother- the woman called the Lord’s mother by The Holy Spirit? Full of Grace? The Lord is with you?- An unfit mother- Shame on You!!! You think God was asleep when he chose her?- Are you now wiser than the Creator of the universe? Please Frank, Do NOT do that again.:tsktsk: It’s called blasphemy :sad_yes:- not a good thing :nope:.

I find this pretty amuzing from “Mary Beloved.”

If memory serves me right it was when Paul was tried before the pharisees it was commanded he be smitten in the face.

I think Paul said thou judge me by the law and command me to be smitten contrary to the law.

I imagine if I said that Jesus Christ was not the only way to heaven no such anger would have come.

With many Christians the mention of the baptism of the Holy Ghost brings out rage but it looks like here any mention of Mary not being divine does it.

That’s a shame because Mary was blessed but she is probably ashamed people have made a God out of her and made her equal to Jesus.

Even the angel told John in the vision when he kneeled See thou do it not. I am of thy brethren of the prophets.
Still today even though a prophet passed over Jordan and told John not to kneel before him people will get angry when Mary is not exalted as divine and they still want men to kneel and kiss their ring. Which, by the way I see no mention of the fisherman’s ring given to Peter. He was given the keys to the kingdom of God.
The keys of righteousness and faith through Christ.

You will never get anywhere with anger. If any would come here and see it they just might be turned away.

 

[adrift]

I find this pretty amuzing from “Mary Beloved.”

If memory serves me right it was when Paul was tried before the pharisees it was commanded he be smitten in the face.

I think Paul said thou judge me by the law and command me to be smitten contrary to the law.

I imagine if I said that Jesus Christ was not the only way to heaven no such anger would have come.

With many Christians the mention of the baptism of the Holy Ghost brings out rage but it looks like here any mention of Mary not being divine does it.

That’s a shame because Mary was blessed but she is probably ashamed people have made a God out of her and made her equal to Jesus.

Even the angel told John in the vision when he kneeled See thou do it not. I am of thy brethren of the prophets.
Still today even though a prophet passed over Jordan and told John not to kneel before him people will get angry when Mary is not exalted as divine and they still want men to kneel and kiss their ring. Which, by the way I see no mention of the fisherman’s ring given to Peter. He was given the keys to the kingdom of God.
The keys of righteousness and faith through Christ.

You will never get anywhere with anger. If any would come here and see it they just might be turned away.

No one here has claimed Mary as being divne that is your claim not ours. Peter was given the keys those keys are passed on to the pope. The keys are authority. You will never get anyway by bearing false witness.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Frankk,
I was pointing out that someone had taken my words and used only part of them to convey their point. Which was not true.

I’m getting used it though by people that wish to take a post done in love and start a posting war.
Sometimes I think they see something they don’t have an answer for and sidetrack the issue so others won’t see it and hopefully get the poster banned to keep others safe from the truth.

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Adrift,
No where in the word of God does it say that the keys of authority as you call it was given to the pope.
Calling my words a false witness when I can back what I say about the word of God with scripture isn’t right either.
I said “she was not divine.”
True witness.

 

[Marybeloved]

Marybeloved,
For your information I said according to the laws of the US today and not that I think she was an unfit mother. Please get it right.
For the part about knowing if the child tarried behind.
Any person that has that great a duty as to bear and raise the Lord would make sure no harm came unto him. This did point out her weakness as a human and not divine.
If you read the prophets you will find that those who were anointed of God were told the secret things. It is part of the anointing.

Also, the reference to the woman in Revelation 12 is the clothed with the sun and the moon was under her feet. That is not Mary.
Another point is that the angel told Mary her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:13) was with child. For Mary to be some sort of divine individual Elizabeth would have to be as well. She could not have an earthly cousin if she was divine.

Also, if Mary was divine and in heaven at the time of the war in which satan was cast out she would know the future.
If she knew the future she would know the tomb was empty and not bother going to it to anoint his body.

Another point is that Elijah is recorded as being taken up in a chariot without tasting death. In Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked with God and was not. God took him.
Those who were close to God the scriptures bear witness to.
Nothing is written about Mary being that close to God. It is written that she was highly favoured of God which I believe but not that she was divine.
You seem to have missed that point in your anger.

It strikes me odd that if anyone speaks against Mary everyone comes to anger while any mention that Jesus himself said that he was the only way to God (ONLY-NOT WITH MARY) it gets overlooked.

Now, as for why I came her.
It was originally to see where we may view things alike.
It all was good until I posted against Mary being divine.
Then everyone got hateful.
Have a good day and justify your views any way in which you want.
Still in all.
Mary was blessed but not divine.
She can not save anyone.
She can not pray for people.
Only Jesus can save as only he was the perfect sacrifice.

Actually Frank, be specific. Coptic got mad. The rest of us just refuted. You just passed a completely useless and unnecessary judgment on God’s own mother based on contemporary American law (Don’t know why you think it is fit to judge God’s mother’s motherhood of God!!!- Perhaps you think American Law is divine like the ten commandments?- I really don’t know:shrug- which you used to describe Mary as unfit mother- You really think that’s OK? Are we judging biblical figures on American Law, now? What do you think is the judgment against overturning other people’s tables while at their business?- What crime would Jesus be guilty of if we judged him by the same ridiculous standard? I was being serious in my warning, Frank- Steer clear of Blasphemy. Calling the woman God chose as his Mother an unfit mother for whatever ridiculous reason, is sin- Not against her, but against God who chose her.

And you’re complaining about not getting responses to saying jesus is the only way? Do you even bother to read responses made to your posts, or just other posts other than yours- That point has been answered again and again and again- You just don’t like the answer because it destroys your assumptions about Catholic belief. This is proven by your insisting on telling us for the third time that Mary is not divine, when you’ve been told repeatedly that Catholics have never held her to be divine. Again, you don’t like the answers you’re getting, because they don’t fit into your preconceived ideas (completely false!). Catholics look to no one but Jesus as savior! But you can continue to argue against and refute a phantom if you think your time is best utilized that way:shrug:.

Peace!

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Adrift,
Maybe you can shed some light on this for me.
You say you are not calling Mary divine or immaculate yet:

People are praying to Mary when the Lord said ask in his name.
One says Mary is this woman in Revelation clothed in the sun and the moon was under her feet.
People say she is the new Eve when there is no mention of the new Eve.
Also, they say she is Eve when Eve was the wife of Adam and the second Adam has no wife.
That is what the wedding supper of the Lamb is for.
The church which is betrothed unto him will be taken to him and be his bride.

I won’t go on but if that isn’t calling Mary immaculate or divine what is?

 

[Frankk]

Sometimes I think they see something they don’t have an answer for and sidetrack the issue so others won’t see it and hopefully get the poster banned to keep others safe from the truth.

Fair enough. But I suspect there is an element of paranoia in your reply. I doubt anyone is trying to get you banned??!!

For my part, I think the discussion is going absolutely nowhere.

You refer to keeping people from the truth. What truth? Yours? Presumably. And on what authority do you claim it to be true? Your own Sola Scriptura ideology, presumably? My apology if I’m incorrect in this regard.

However I have a specific question for you:

My Sola Scriptura interpretation is diametrically opposed to yours. I think you’ll accept this as a fact. Which interpretation, then, is correct? There can only be one true interpretation. But SS allows us, both, two different interpretations. Who decides which of us is correct? And, of course, any judge will be using his/her own interpretation of SS to come to a conclusion.

Surely, you can see the fatal flaw in the notion of SS?

 

[Marybeloved]

I find this pretty amuzing from “Mary Beloved.”

If memory serves me right it was when Paul was tried before the pharisees it was commanded he be smitten in the face.

I think Paul said thou judge me by the law and command me to be smitten contrary to the law.

I imagine if I said that Jesus Christ was not the only way to heaven no such anger would have come.

With many Christians the mention of the baptism of the Holy Ghost brings out rage but it looks like here any mention of Mary not being divine does it.

That’s a shame because Mary was blessed but she is probably ashamed people have made a God out of her and made her equal to Jesus.

Even the angel told John in the vision when he kneeled See thou do it not. I am of thy brethren of the prophets.
Still today even though a prophet passed over Jordan and told John not to kneel before him people will get angry when Mary is not exalted as divine and they still want men to kneel and kiss their ring. Which, by the way I see no mention of the fisherman’s ring given to Peter. He was given the keys to the kingdom of God.
The keys of righteousness and faith through Christ.

You will never get anywhere with anger. If any would come here and see it they just might be turned away.

Frank, if you’re so proud as to not see that you just insulted Jesus’ mother unnecessarily, and that is bad- It’s up to you:shrug:. If you called Jesus a vagrant because he had nowhere to lay his head, I’d accuse you of blasphemy just the same. Many people have said here that they do not believe that Mary was sinless, we’ve debated it amicably. No one has even come close to what you did- which is not an argument but an insult. Of an important biblical figure. If you think you’re a martyr for insulting biblical figures and getting reprimanded for it, that’s up to you. But it’s Blasphemy all the same.

Peace!

 

[Frank_Hagen]

Marybeloved,
You are saying I passed judgment using American law which is not true.
I used that as a point of what people think about when a mother does not know where her children are.
I did not say that I found her to be an unfit mother.
Yes, I read other posts as well but they keep coming back to Mary being some divine individual that people pray to in hopes she will make intercession to God in Jesus’ place.
The posts may not directly say as much but you don’t have to have a seminary education to see that when people pray to Mary and say a woman with an earthly cousin was without sin and remained a virgin all her life I think they pretty much show Jesus is not whom is being honoured.
If I have offended you I am sorry but I am only posting what I see.
And if I being a non-Catholic see this what might some other non-Catholics see?

 

[Frankk]

I used that as a point of what people think about when a mother does not know where her children are.

This is an excellent example of people applying modern practices to first century society. It was the norm that women would travel in one group and the men in another. Children might travel in either. It is completely understandable that Mary thought Jesus was with Joseph and vice versa.

Do you really think 1st Century Jews would hear this story and think Mary a bad mother? Clearly not. They would understand exactly the cricumstances.