Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

  • Thread starter Thread starter joe370
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
Pablope,

If you read my earlier post you would know that I am not repeating what a man taught me.
I made it clear I was raised in a heathen family that never supported me going to church.
You would also know that I said that the Holy Ghost has showed me the things I post.

How many times must I repeat this and you still accuse me of having a preacher tell me these things.
Seeing that we use only the word of God as well as the things I posted elsewhere come from spiritual discernment. It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.

If you read my posts you would also know that I stated that I left many churches because they taught contrary to the word of God.

Let me say this again so you stop accusing me.
No preacher or pastor has taught me.
The things I see in the word are revealed by the Spirit.
 
Jehovah Witness, 7th Day adventists and Joseph Smith read that too…🤷
I must disagree.

The JW’s are kept from reading the Bible on their own. They are only allowed to see the Bible through the Watchtowers interpretation of each scripture of the Bible, because they claim that only their church leaders can understand the Bible and God wants them to explain it to them, all they have to do is believe what THEY say the Bible says. After all, that is what God wants them to do.

Joseph Smith tried one scheme after another to make money, his biggest success was when he manufactured additions to the Bible that all his followers had to believe what he said is the Bible says. He took them away from the salvation of Jesus Christ by grace, a gift from God, To a system of many works and reincarnations whereby they may eventually become gods themselves. His Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible.

I do not know very much about the 7th day Adventist except they go to church on Saturday.

The problem of these departures from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the failure of not studying the Bible to see if the claims of Joseph Smith or the JW’s match what Jesus actually taught and what has been revealed by the Apostles. Only by sincerely searching scripture and walking with God daily, putting our trust in Him, in His word and WORD, and that is exactly what the role of the Holy Spirit is. Christians do have direct fellowship with God. We though we be imperfect, God will not fail us. Seek and we will find, Ask and it will be given to us, Knock and the door will be open to us.
 
No preacher or pastor has taught me.
The things I see in the word are revealed by the Spirit.
Actually, this is not quite true, Frank. For it was the Catholic Church that taught you that Philemon is inspired but that the Didache is not. It was the Catholic Church that taught you that the Gospel of Mark is inspired but that the Gospel of Thomas is not.

You would not know it any other way, except that the Church taught you this by presenting the Bible to you in its codified form.
 
Pablope,

If you read my earlier post you would know that I am not repeating what a man taught me.
I made it clear I was raised in a heathen family that never supported me going to church.
You would also know that I said that the Holy Ghost has showed me the things I post.

How many times must I repeat this and you still accuse me of having a preacher tell me these things.
Seeing that we use only the word of God as well as the things I posted elsewhere come from spiritual discernment. It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.

If you read my posts you would also know that I stated that I left many churches because they taught contrary to the word of God.

Let me say this again so you stop accusing me.
No preacher or pastor has taught me.
The things I see in the word are revealed by the Spirit.
Okay…I apologize…you said you are non-denom…so I pressumed you had a pastor.

Anyway…going to your statement…“It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.”

Why did Holy Spirit not point to you the following verses…words of Jesus Himself…which I cited…and I repeat them here below…

Matt 23:

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

So, did His listeners have multiple fathers? Or what was Jesus referring to in verse 9, 31 and 32?

And from Mark 11:

9And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

10Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

So, if it is wrong to use the word father…why did Jesus not condemn those who were calling David “father”…for He was there Himself?

And from Luke 6:

23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Jesus using the word “father” himself…so if He said not to use the word “father”…why is he using it Himself?
 
The things I know and post come from the Spirit of God through the King James Bible.
If the Catholic church made the King James Bible you are correct.
If the Catholic church did not make the King James Bible you are incorrect.
As I repeatedly say the Spirit of God has revealed scripture to me about the Lord since I was a child.
Yet everyone keeps trying to bring it back to Catholicism.
 
The righteousness of Christ is imparted by the gift of grace through faith in the remission of sins. If Mary was concieved without sin and never sinned in her life. She had no need of faith in Christs atoning sacrifice and therefore could not be full of grace as the angel said.
Wow! Now, here at last we have it in plain black and white, no? A sola-scriptura adherent saying that the scripture is wrong, that the Archangel Gabriel is wrong, which actually means that GOD is wrong!!! :eek::eek::eek:All because they disagree with his own understanding and interpretation of scripture! :rolleyes: But I really cannot say I’m surprised. After all, sola scriptura makes you your own ultimate judge of the truth as per your own private interpretation:shrug:.

Peace!
 
Okay…I apologize…you said you are non-denom…so I pressumed you had a pastor.

Anyway…going to your statement…“It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.”

Why did Holy Spirit not point to you the following verses…words of Jesus Himself…which I cited…and I repeat them here below…

Matt 23:

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

“The Lord is saying that they say. And he is not exactly supporting them in this rebuke.”

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

“Jesus is using the word father. I won’t”

So, did His listeners have multiple fathers? Or what was Jesus referring to in verse 9, 31 and 32?

And from Mark 11:

9And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

10Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

“They are using the word father correct as it is in reference to he who is called the Everlasting Father. Jesus”

So, if it is wrong to use the word father…why did Jesus not condemn those who were calling David “father”…for He was there Himself?

And from Luke 6:

23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

“The Lord is using the word father. I do not question his authority to do so.”

Jesus using the word “father” himself…so if He said not to use the word “father”…why is he using it Himself?
The Lord has all power in heaven and earth. All judgment has been given to him and he can say what he wishes. It is not in the place of man to question him."

Once again. I will not call any man on earth father.
 
This is an example of the Bereans examining the Old Testament, Telestia.

I don’t think that you are advocating doing what the Bereans did, right?

Is there a verse in Scripture that states we are to use the Bible and “only the Bible”?
Yes, the very one I quoted, That is why I quoted that verse about the Bereans. They were very noble for using that approach to test if Paul was telling the truth.

Any Christian worth their salt know that the Gospel of Jesus and Jesus the Messiah is contained in the OT, and revealed fully in the NT. The Bereans, by studying the OT in light of Paul’s teachings, they saw that Jesus was truly their long awaited Messiah and this lead them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No Christian should ever believe another man’s view of Scriptures without examining it against the actual Scriptures in proper context.

No one gets a free pass to be THE AUTHORITY on what scripture says or means. Myself included. Paul was very pleased that these Bereans checked out his teachings against actual scriptures, in order to make certain that they are not being deceived by a false teaching.
 
The Lord has all power in heaven and earth. All judgment has been given to him and he can say what he wishes. It is not in the place of man to question him."

Once again. I will not call any man on earth father.
Hello Frank,

Honestly now, surely, you are not going to say like Richard did with the Archangel, that St. Paul must be wrong, are you? Surely, if St. Paul as a man made a mistake, the Holy Spirit would not turn the mistake into "the holy word of God’ by inspiring it in scripture!

Isn’t it better and more humble as a Christian, to just say that scripture cannot contradict Jesus Christ (the Divine Word) and it cannot contradict itself or err (The Holy Spirit inspires all of it); Therefore when you find an apparent contradiction in it, surely it must be your own interpretation that is fallen short, your own understanding?- Because it most assuredly, cannot be God or scripture that’s wrong…right?🤷
 
The Lord has all power in heaven and earth. All judgment has been given to him and he can say what he wishes. It is not in the place of man to question him."

Once again. I will not call any man on earth father.
Well…I am not asking you call anyman father if you do not want to.

I am asking you to explain the following:

*Anyway…going to your statement…“It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.”

Why did Holy Spirit not point to you the following verses…words of Jesus Himself…which I cited…and I repeat them here below…*

So what you are saying, Jesus can contradict Himself? You cited Matt 23:9…yet, Jesus, in later verses and in the other Gospels…does not condemn those calling David “father” within earshot of Him…and He repeats the word again…as pointed in my post.

So He would give us one command and contradict it Himself in another verse and Gospel? Looks like Jesus is setting a bad example, is it not? And if Jesus can contradict His very words…without any consequences…so what are the consequences for us if we contradict His words too?
 
Yes, the very one I quoted, That is why I quoted that verse about the Bereans. They were very noble for using that approach to test if Paul was telling the truth.

Any Christian worth their salt know that the Gospel of Jesus and Jesus the Messiah is contained in the OT, and revealed fully in the NT. The Bereans, by studying the OT in light of Paul’s teachings, they saw that Jesus was truly their long awaited Messiah and this lead them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No Christian should ever believe another man’s view of Scriptures without examining it against the actual Scriptures in proper context.

No one gets a free pass to be THE AUTHORITY on what scripture says or means. Myself included. Paul was very pleased that these Bereans checked out his teachings against actual scriptures, in order to make certain that they are not being deceived by a false teaching.
Amen.
 
No disrespect here Joe but isn’t that the same argument the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders used when speaking to John the Baptist, a ‘lay preacher’? They couldn’t hear (understand) him because they presumed to have had a greater academic or religious knowledge. Their presumption was their folly and it was based on their ‘lineage in terms of religion’. They represented the ‘authoritive view’ concerning matters of God. I guess you can say they represented the ‘Church according to tradition’ of the time. Whilst their understanding of God had been derived from the Law of God through Moses, their twisting of the message behind it (faith - refer Romans 10) in the interest of additional precepts and regulations saw them miss the presence of the Messiah completely. Despite them having the greater education they really understood nothing about Christ. Yet, they could not see this because they could not fathom the possibility of missing the point - after all, they were the ‘custodians of Scriptural interpretation’ of the time. :o

Today, those who have been born again and who have received the Holy Spirit can count on Him to be bringing understanding: “As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.” (1 John 2:27). Is every person who calls him/herself a Christian actually born again, like Jesus said we should be? And, do everybody who is reborn actually listen to the Holy Spirit? Well, that is another story altogether.
Hey gerhardc…🙂

John, (or vice-versa) - wasn’t asking them anything about the rightful interpreter of scripture and the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders certainly didn’t embrace the notion of sola scriptura. Of course, even if the Pharisees and the Jewish leaders were asking the same question that I am asking, it would still be a valid question. Your thoughts regarding the following:

If you are correct, then you must be deferring either to your own interpretation or to the interpretation of another person or church leadership, to prove that certain teachings of the Catholic church do in fact contradict scripture? After all scripture cannot interpret scripture.

Which one is it gerhardc?👍
 
Well…I am not asking you call anyman father if you do not want to.

I am asking you to explain the following:

*Anyway…going to your statement…“It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.”

Why did Holy Spirit not point to you the following verses…words of Jesus Himself…which I cited…and I repeat them here below…*

So what you are saying, Jesus can contradict Himself? You cited Matt 23:9…yet, Jesus, in later verses and in the other Gospels…does not condemn those calling David “father” within earshot of Him…and He repeats the word again…as pointed in my post.

So He would give us one command and contradict it Himself in another verse and Gospel? Looks like Jesus is setting a bad example, is it not? And if Jesus can contradict His very words…without any consequences…so what are the consequences for us if we contradict His words too?
Those using the term Father David are using the term correct as David was a type and shadow of Jesus the “son of David” that so many cried out.

I must admit that you are doing a diligent search to find fault with my views about calling no man father.
People forget the word says My tongue is the pen of a ready writer.
What people have in their heart they speak and write and post.
Are you just out to find fault with a man that has chosen to adhere to the words of Christ when he said call no man father on earth?
If so you may want to stop trying to justify your desire to go against his words.
That however is between you and God.
As for me I will not call any man on earth father.
 
Okay…I apologize…you said you are non-denom…so I pressumed you had a pastor.

Anyway…going to your statement…“It is a gift of the Spirit whereby the Spirit of God reveals the word and points out err.”

Why did Holy Spirit not point to you the following verses…words of Jesus Himself…which I cited…and I repeat them here below…

Matt 23:

29Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.

31Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.

So, did His listeners have multiple fathers? Or what was Jesus referring to in verse 9, 31 and 32?

And from Mark 11:

9And they that went before, and they that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna; Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord:

10Blessed be the kingdom of our father David, that cometh in the name of the Lord: Hosanna in the highest.

So, if it is wrong to use the word father…why did Jesus not condemn those who were calling David “father”…for He was there Himself?

And from Luke 6:

23Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.

Jesus using the word “father” himself…so if He said not to use the word “father”…why is he using it Himself?
In Hebrew, A ‘Father’ is the Father not only of his sons, but also of his grandchildren and great grandchildren etc. That is why the Jews refer to Abraham as Father Abraham.

The same is true for Mothers.

But we Italians do not do that. We have a father, a grandfather, great grandfather, etc.

But we all have one true Father, He who created us.

When I pray, I will always pray to God the Father, and all my request will be in Jesus name, nor will I be repetitious, because I believe what Jesus and the scriptures say about prayer. I will not judge how others pray, but this is the way I choose to pray and why.

Wow, it is 1:00 AM here. So God’s blessings be upon all, Good Night. I wonder what we will talk about when we are UP there.
 
Yes, the very one I quoted, That is why I quoted that verse about the Bereans. They were very noble for using that approach to test if Paul was telling the truth.

Any Christian worth their salt know that the Gospel of Jesus and Jesus the Messiah is contained in the OT, and revealed fully in the NT. The Bereans, by studying the OT in light of Paul’s teachings, they saw that Jesus was truly their long awaited Messiah and this lead them to accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ. No Christian should ever believe another man’s view of Scriptures without examining it against the actual Scriptures in proper context.

No one gets a free pass to be THE AUTHORITY on what scripture says or means. Myself included. Paul was very pleased that these Bereans checked out his teachings against actual scriptures, in order to make certain that they are not being deceived by a false teaching.
Ok, but who gets to decide what is scripture? I don’t recall any book in the bible giving a list of books that constitute scripture-🤷. So how can you know that this Church boasting with authority that she doesn’t have, made the right decision in the 4th and 5th Centuries when she chose the 27 books and rejected others that also taught about Jesus? Which scripture, did you use to **“test” **that decision as the Bereans tested St. Paul’s message? As you say, no-one gets a free pass on the authority of what scripture says- certainly not the catholic Church, right? How do you know that the Protoevangelium of St. James and the Didache that the Catholic Church rejected as scripture are really not scripture? Have you tested them against scripture like the Bereans? 🤷
 
I like your writing. We might not agree but thank you nevertheless.
You’re welcome. As long as you try to understand what Catholics truly believe, that is at least what matters.
Not sure all Protestants will agree with this: "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it." (Colossians 2:13-15)
Christ had to die on the cross and atone for sin because human beings are unable to observe the moral precepts of the law to perfection. He cancelled the law as the source of salvation, but he did not make the law void insofar that we aren’t obligated to observe the moral precepts of the law or repent of our personal sins in order to be saved. The law still serves as a means to be saved. Thus St, Paul exhorts us to “be doers of the law”. The law condemned us until Christ died for our sins. He alone remitted the sins we had committed against the law and removed its ultimate power over us. By legal decree Christ cancelled the record of debt that stood against us with all its claims. This is just one dimension of being declared or reckoned as righteous. Christ alone has formally saved the world by his death on the cross in view of no preceding merits of ours, having made satisfaction to the Father for our sins in strict justice by his merits (meritum de condigno), but we as individuals and friends of God must cooperate with the infused divine graces we receive to instrumentally be saved and merit our eternal reward (meritum de congruo) - now that Christ has cancelled the debt against us. This cancellation holds as long as we act righteously or justly in our lives by being observers of the law of liberty. We must " work out our salvation in fear and trembling" and not rely strictly on Christ’s salvific work.

*Who will render to every man according to his works… But glory, and honour, and peace to every one that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Romans 2 6-10, 13

And you know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him, sinneth not; and whosoever sinneth, hath not seen him or known him. Little children, let no man deceive you. He that doth justice is just, even as he is just.
1 John 3, 5-7*
Compare Colossians 2:9 - "For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power."
Indeed, the person of Christ, the Divine Word made flesh, is actually substantially united to our human nature. So we are called to partake in the divine life of his by being righteous as our Lord was in his sacred humanity through the efficacy of divine grace. Thus we aren’t just declared just. We must act justly in order to be justified in God’s sight in view of the merits of Christ in his sacred humanity.

I will give you a new heart and place my spirit within you, taking from your bodies your stony hearts and giving you natural hearts. I will put my spirit in you and make you live by my statutes, careful to observe my decrees.
Ezekiel 36, 26-27

Compare Romans 10:10 - "with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.". It appears as if faith (the James 2:17 type of faith) is what brings righteousness.
So faith also, if it has not works, is dead in itself.
James 2, 17 [VB: English translation of the Latin Vulgate]

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
James 2, 17 [KJV]

So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
James 2, 17 [NAB]

James isn’t concerned whether a type of faith can save us (2:14), but whether the faith of Christ can save us without good works done in grace. James is objecting to relying on only faith to be saved. If his concern was to draw a distinction between a saving faith and an unsaving faith, then he would have written: " So also faith (not “of itself”, “being alone”, or “in itself”), if it does not have works is dead." For James faith is faith and works are works: two separate entities in themselves. James does not intend to tell us that a faith of sufficient quality saves as is evident by good works. Scripture also mentions “dead works”, (good works done outside the sytem of grace of a pharisiac quality), so are we to conversely assume that works alone save us provided that they are of a sufficient quality as is evident by our faith? :confused: Of course not. The truth is that faith and works are separate entities in themselves which must be coupled in order for the believer to be saved. Faith initially justifies, but is completed and perfected by good works. Good works done in charity and grace (feeding the hungry and clothing the naked) render our faith profitable, and so are causative of salvation.

To be continued.

PAX :heaven:
 
As for me it is late and time to sign off.
No more going back and forth about that which has strayed from the original topic.
Peace.
 
Ok, but who gets to decide what is scripture? I don’t recall any book in the bible giving a list of books that constitute scripture-🤷. So how can you know that this Church boasting with authority that she doesn’t have, made the right decision in the 4th and 5th Centuries when she chose the 27 books and rejected others that also taught about Jesus? Which scripture, did you use to **“test” **that decision as the Bereans tested St. Paul’s message? As you say, no-one gets a free pass on the authority of what scripture says- certainly not the catholic Church, right? How do you know that the Protoevangelium of St. James and the Didache that the Catholic Church rejected as scripture are really not scripture? Have you tested them against scripture like the Bereans? 🤷
It is really not that difficult. Quotes of the original gospels, book of acts, Paul’s letters, etc. were commonly spread and held as legitimate from their beginning. We can construct the entire New Testament from the writings of the early Christian letters and books quoting the New testament books. The only portions of Scripture missing are a few lines from the Apostle John’s 2nd and 3rd letters.

The only controversial book is the Revelation of John. It was voted in by getting two more votes than the Revelation of Peter. The Revelation of John was controversial, some early Christian churches questioned the validity of the Revelation of John.

On the other hand, The book of Barnabas may have been worthy of being included in the NT.

Good Night All,
 
It is really not that difficult. Quotes of the original gospels, book of acts, Paul’s letters, etc. were commonly spread and held as legitimate from their beginning. We can construct the entire New Testament from the writings of the early Christian letters and books quoting the New testament books. The only portions of Scripture missing are a few lines from the Apostle John’s 2nd and 3rd letters.

The only controversial book is the Revelation of John. It was voted in by getting two more votes than the Revelation of Peter. The Revelation of John was controversial, some early Christian churches questioned the validity of the Revelation of John.

On the other hand, The book of Barnabas may have been worthy of being included in the NT.

Good Night All,
Great apologetics for Christian origins!👍. And great apologetics for the absolute reliability of Apostolic tradition from which scripture was written, preserved and decided (declared)👍 Still does not answer the question. Who decided which of all that material constituted the New Testament? Not only those quotes were available, the Didache, the protoevangelium, As you noted, Barnabas, and others were as well- None of them start with a declaration “This is scripture” so who decided that only the 27 in the New Testament are scripture as opposed to the others? 🤷 And which scripture did you use to test this decision?

Peace!
 
I

Your reference to David’s Psalm 51 refers to justification through the Law (as opposed to justification through grace by means of Jesus fulfilling of the Law - refer Colossians 2:13-15), which is as good as Moses having declared into Law: “on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised”. Neither Moses’ Law nor David’s means to justification remains following Jesus’ victory through His death and resurrection.
There is a distinction between works of the law (ergon nomou) and works of grace (ergois agathois). It wasn’t David’s sacrifice alone ( good work simpliciter) that absolved him of his mortal sins (adultery and murder) and reconciled him with God. It was the prescribed paschal sacrifice coupled with his humble and contrite heart, prompted by God’s grace and the gift of the Holy Spirit. It was because of Cain’s pride and boastfulness that God rejected his sacrifices. Unlike his brother Abel, he tried to place God in his debt. David, on the other hand, did not. He begged for God’s mercy in acknowledgement of his guilt and the need for forgiveness. His interior disposition saved him together with his act of obedience in faith. In his own words: “A humble and contrite heart, O God, you will not spurn. From my sins turn away your face, and blot out all my guilt. O wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.”

PAX :heaven:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top