Mary - sinner - Romans 3?

[rikkk1958]

I think RevG wants to tell us that Mary is a sinful person because he can not find the word “sinless” in the Bible. He will not accept any interpretation about Mary to be “Full of Grace” as having the title of “Full of Grace” which is not like a description to that of Stephen. He can not accept the fact that there is nothing impossible with God and the Bible describes Mary as the Mother of the Lord. Perhaps he will have a problem accepting that Mary is the Mother of God. Can a mother of God sinful? He has a problem with the tradition of the Catholic Church, as the Church way before the New Testaments were written, as the Pillar and the foundation of the Truth. He can not accept that the Church and the early Church fathers taught what they have learned from the source and were or are passing it from generation to generation. He however, accepts that his Bible is the whole truth because it was altered by his founding fathers.

“Hail full of Grace”, a fulness of God’s grace bestowed to Mary from her conception to ascension. This title is more than being described as sinless. As the handmaid of the Lord, Mary carried the New Covenant in her womb, like the Ark which carried the Word of God. It is not easy for a Southern Baptist to accept the teachings of the Catholic Church because their mind had been saturated with lies from writings and books they thought and believed as the truth.

 

[KathleenGee]

RevG…

What I am at essence describing in your big red notes is indeed concerning the very issue of heresy. Have you been reading through all the posts?

  First of all, Catholicism is based on the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ handed us by the Apostles, and insured in the Holy Spirit, that the true intent  of the Living Word of God is based on Jesus...the Only Truth.

Just this morning, a bible teacher was on tv explaining the difficulties of reading the Bible literally…in the Old Testament, in referring to Rehab in Joshua…‘alive to this very day’. Well a person with little education but only able to read…can pick up the Bible…and be very confused and wonder, well if the bible is true, then how can this be?..

Christ instituted His Church for a reason. Tere was no Bible in the first several hundred years of the Church. But the bigger reality of Christ is that He Himself – Who is God, Who performed many miracles in His ministry – did not make Bibles.

Instead, He turned to human flesh to be His disciples, His apostles to found His Church, with Peter as head. Actual witness to Jesus Christ as St. Peter said in his second letter …the Apostles imbued with the Holy Spirit – are the only foundation upon which to believe the Word of God. We do not look to a book form, but to a disciple form of understanding Scripture. That is because we are following how Christ did things, set up things.

The Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church are the only churches founded by the Apostles. The Church began at Pentecost. Jesus always prayed we would be one. I cannot follow any other ‘Bible church’ that is not founded by the Apostles and has no tradition, no liturgy, no saints, no canon law…

Subsequently, it is Sacred Scripture – each part connected to the other as a whole – with the Apostolic Tradition of faith passed down to us from the Apostles…not individual, opposing private interpretations, that our relationship and use of the Bible is understood and lived out.

  The Catholic Bible's books have all been approved as supporting the universal faith, message, mission of Christ.  The Book of St. Thomas is the only other one that is reserved for private use...meaning that there are aspects of it reflecting the Truth of Jesus Christ...but its perspective is not universal, speaking to all people, thus it is for personal use.  All the others alleged inspired books have been refused, not inspired by God for the universal, apostolic Catholic Church.

Why? Because these books do not attest to the Truth of Jesus Christ…the only absolute Truth. All the rest is philosophies, perceptions, understandings of individual men who are creatures, not God. Man is not the author of truth and communion, only Christ.

God alone is Truth. Jesus Christ is the Eternal Word. The Bible is in effect the Living Word of God, Jesus Christ. All the more, we are to understand Him through His Church, authorized by Him to be teachers and administrators of His Word and Sacraments.

The Bible is so misused today...how many competing divisions and even hatred and prejudice are being generated by false teachers of the Bible????   The Bible -- Sola Scripture --Martin Luther even admitted that he did not believe in Apostolic succession insuring the Holy Spirit be with the Church affirming the Oral Tradition of Jesus Christ.  Martin Luther lost faith in the Holy Spirit.  Otherwise, he may have persevered in seeing abuses corrected.  Many who have worked to reform the Church did not leave it, did not lose faith, and improved the Church, becoming saints.

As a universal Christian, a Catholic, I believe that the Holy Spirit has never left the teaching mission of our Church, protecting us from misreading and misapplying the Word of God to ordinary life.

I relate to the presence of Christ in Protestants and their sincerity…but in their teachings I always pick up errors and missives that do not give complete understanding and life. It may be hard for you to see this.

As Catholics we believe the Bible is the Eternal Word, Jesus Christ, and it is through the Church that we are taught the fullness of Jesus Christ.

 

[rinnie]

If the Bible is absolute truth, how can we be absolutely sure that all the right books are in there? It doesn’t tell us how many books. Catholics, Protestants, the Orthodox and Jews all have a different number of books.

The Bible doesn’t say it is the final authority. It does say the all inspired scripture is useful but not only scripture. And it doesn’t say what scripture is.

Who gets to decide whether one’s opinion goes against the Bible? For example I would argue your opinion goes against the Bible and you would argue mine (regarding Mary being sinless) does.

Exactly. And the bible says the CHURCH is the Pilar of all truth. So what Church, It has to be the Catholic Church, because no one can deny the Protestant Church did not even exist at the time of Christ.

 

[Marybeloved]

Personally, I wouldn’t use that argument, as then you would logically need to use the same argument for Mary’s parents, etc. I would rather use another venue, such as the Ark of the Covenant, the New Eve, kecharitomene, the argument from fittingness (as opposed to necessity), of the antiquity of the belief, or even any of the various other arguments out there.

Well, the scriptures do call Christ the fruit of Mary’s womb, we are not just applying our own analogy here.

But even putting that aside, Mary’s parents did bear fruit according to their nature! Catholics do not deny that at all. That fact (Mary’s parents passing on their nature to her) is exactly why the immaculate conception happened- If God had not intervened and infused Mary with a complete perfect and enduring Grace she would most certainly have had original sin! We don’t deny that what Mary got from her parents was fallen nature- We are saying that what Mary got from God (that big bang of grace) in the same instance, saved Mary.

We have to understand somethings about original sin- There are effects of original sin on our nature, but not all these effects constitute the “stain of original sin” in our souls. This stain is what Baptism rectifies (plus other personal sins)- But not the other effects like concupiscence and the law of the members, the old man still existing in us, the weaknesses etc etc go away after baptism- these are remedied on the long road of sanctity, through the increase of grace we get in sacraments and prayer (ultimate source is Christ himself/Eucharist) and our co-operation via asceticism etc The saints are the perfected ones. We are saved from sin at Baptism and when we fall, confession and repentance, but we are perfected on the narrow road where the other disorders in our soul are set right until we are Saints and Resurrection transforms our bodies totally.

But remember that the stain of original sin is not the existence of “dirt” in the soul. It’s the absence of sanctifying grace in the soul- a hole in the soul where grace ought to be- And this sanctifying grace is the soul’s umbilical cord to the Blessed Trinity, and is what makes a true spiritual communion with God possible. So the stain of original sin, our inherited curse, is a stain of separation from God- It’s death! Mary’s parents would naturally give fruit according to their fallen nature plus the hole/separation that is the stain of original sin-but Mary as she was conceived by her parents on the one hand, was infused with Grace by God on the other; so that she was never with the hole- never separated from her Creator- Not because she was not her parent’s true child but because God intervened. Jesus on the other hand, we say, unlike his Mother, was not “saved” from any sin at all. Not from an original or personal sin, at conception or at any other point in his life.

His mother was filled with grace at her conception, and (as I read in Antonio Orozco’s excellent book: "Mother of God and Our Mother") the grace infused into her soul was so full, so perfect, complete, enduring, that it “spilled” onto her flesh and transformed her entire nature. So that not only was she never with the stain of separation, but even her flesh being one with her soul enjoyed the favor of that super-grace in her, such that all her being was perfected. When she conceived Christ, she like her parents, gave birth to a nature according to her own graced and perfected (unfallen) nature- Christ is, as the scriptures put it, a fruit of Mary- and a fruit according to the nature of the tree (Mary) from which it comes.

 

[E.E.N.S]

Well, the scriptures do call Christ the fruit of Mary’s womb, we are not just applying our own analogy here.
[snip]

I was not in anyway denying that Christ is the fruit of Mary’s womb, but rather stating that the argument that Mary MUST have always been sinless because “how can good fruit come from something that had ever known sin?” is not a good argument, as then you would have to say the exact same thing for her parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc, etc, etc. It simply is not a viable argument, as many of the great apologists have stated before, (i.e., Jimmy Akins, etc…).

 

[jlhargus]

How can someone clean (Mary) come from someone unclean (Mary’s mother)?

I’ve always been told that Mary’s cleanliness isn’t necessary in order for Jesus to be clean, it’s just a special grace given to her.

JL: CompSciGuy, Yes Mary was preserved from original sin by a special grace given her at CONCEPTION.

[GEN 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent Because thou hast done this thou art cursed… 15 And I will put ENMITY between THEE AND THE WOMAN and between THY SEED AND HER SEED it shall bruise thy head and thou shalt bruise his heel]

God said, he would put ENMITY between THEE=Satan and THE WOMAN=Mary. Her seed (Christ) would only come after her. Yet God put enmity between Satan and Mary before her seed was born. She would always be at enmity with Satan, as she was never of his seed, therefore not under sin. Like Mary’s seed there was never a time when Mary was not at enmity with Satan.

John the Baptist was BORN without original sin by a special grace given him, after conception, yet while he was still in the womb.

Lk1:13 But the angel said unto him, Fear not, Zacharias: for thy prayer is heard; and thy wife Elisabeth shall bear thee a son, and thou shalt call his name John. 14 And thou shalt have joy and gladness; and many shall rejoice at his birth. 15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb.

Mary Ark of the Covenant; forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5896761&postcount=99

 

[KathleenGee]

MaryBeloved…what part of Africa…I grew up in USA…I didn’t ever disbelieve Church teaching about Mary…just who I was, I didn’t have devotion to Mary beyond Mother of Christ, until I was in Africa…came to devotion to Mary through Italian missionaries…incarnational…

I like the part you clarified – original sin is indeed the absence of sanctifying grace.

Yes, Mary was created by God for Christ…That was Mary’s mission. To be the human flesh for Christ. How could she give Him sinful flesh?

Mary was created by God to be Christ’s mother. But she was not forced. She was chosen. Mary responded by saying Yes, and she also made us aware of her own frail humanity…‘How could this be?’

As Mary was full of grace and not sin, her entire being only desired to chose God’s will. And she freely responded yes.

 

[KathleenGee]

Brethren…

And wouldn’t a Christian be considered blessed with enlightenment to consider Mary? Think of Duns Scotus…

I am slowly getting through (still) Church history. I am getting old, that is why.

What has impressed me more than anything is how enduring the Catholic Church has been. It seems like when there is peace, well, in no time, there is alot of trouble going on again that threatens its very livelihood. But yet, the Church survives.

So with just that perspective alone, with the development of asceticism, mysticism, various parallel disciplines and the ongoing history in the lives of the saints and what they have continued to teach us about Christ in living Him out…

Consider that the theology of the Immaculate Conception began finally, 1100 years after Christ’s life, death, and resurrection to take to on definition through Blessed Duns Scotus. After all, to love God is to know Him…and those who love God have continual hunger to know Him more. And Christ Himself more. And to know Christ more is to reflect on His origin…in God…in Mary.

Eleven hundred years…after much trevail…were the consecrated able to begin formally considering the Immaculate Conception…on the search for the truth of Christ…a hunger for Christ…not this caricature of the Catholic Church ‘making stuff up’ because the clergy is on a power trip and want to control simple Christians.

I point out consecrated because families and singles worked much, much harder than we do here in America to earn a living, get an education, and sufficient health care, drive good roads and have cars and phones. These people didn’t and had to work very very hard to eke out a living to raise a family and survive.

Coming back now…It was Franciscan Duns Scotus who debated our formidable Dominicans defending Mary’s Immaculate Conception. I

Mary’s Immaculate Conception was — her great privilege – that God alone gave her, not the Catholic Church in itself. He defended Mary in a country that was an oppressive anti-Catholic one…and we must note here that darkness can be turned into light through one’s faith in Christ…

Duns Scotus also defended the papacy and he was thrown out of the country.

As Mary, Immaculate Conception is the patronness of our sex obsessed country, it would be good to study his debate. Ignatius Press now has a film we can order on Duns Scotus and his theological groundwork for the eventual dogma of the Immaculate Conception…

By the way…you always hear people putting religion down because of doctrines and dogmas…

How many dogmas does the Catholic Church hold???

 

[adrift]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

Where does it say in scripture that the Bible is the final authority? In fact, what it does say, as rinnie so rightly pointed, out is that the final authority is the Church.

Exactly. And the bible says the CHURCH is the Pillar of all truth. So what Church, It has to be the Catholic Church, because no one can deny the Protestant Church did not even exist at the time of Christ.

 

[Marybeloved]

MaryBeloved…what part of Africa…I grew up in USA…I didn’t ever disbelieve Church teaching about Mary…just who I was, I didn’t have devotion to Mary beyond Mother of Christ, until I was in Africa…came to devotion to Mary through Italian missionaries…incarnational…

I like the part you clarified – original sin is indeed the absence of sanctifying grace.

Yes, Mary was created by God for Christ…That was Mary’s mission. To be the human flesh for Christ. How could she give Him sinful flesh?

Mary was created by God to be Christ’s mother. But she was not forced. She was chosen. Mary responded by saying Yes, and she also made us aware of her own frail humanity…‘How could this be?’

As Mary was full of grace and not sin, her entire being only desired to chose God’s will. And she freely responded yes.

Hello, Kathleen,

I’m from East Africa- Baptized 2002, started trying to live the faith four years later! Mary has been more than instrumental in getting me out of every funk I ever got myself into. I received doctrinal and spiritual formation at an Opus Dei center. I read a lot of books on the faith, saints and our lady etc there. Very grateful I did- Our faith is the most beautiful thing in this world . Very nice to meet you!

Peace!

 

[KathleenGee]

MaryBeloved…

What country? I was stationed in Zambezi Valley, 40 miles inland from Indian Ocean, Mozambique…almost at the antipode of my home town.

How has your devotion to Mary affected your views of the society around you?

You come across well versed…you have studied and absorbed your faith very well…

 

[JustaServant]

What you said is that there is no absolute truth, this is called relativism.

Where did Katheleen say this?

 

[Nicea325]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

No… the absolute Truth is GOD! I asked you once and you have yet to show us where the Bible claims it is the final authority? Where does Jesus teach written scripture is the final authority? You make all sorts of wild claims about Mary,yet you cannot provide a single verse where says the Bible is the final authority?

 

[joe370]

There is an absolute truth…the Bible. It is the absolute truth, without error, infallible, inerrant. How we can know the truth is by seeking what the Bible says about the topic since it is the final authority. The Bible never calls Mary sinless…never. the Bible says that Jesus was without sin. Regarding opinions, if anyone’s opinion goes contrary to the Bible then their opinion is wrong, whether that be me or that be you, the Bible is the final authority.

So it’s my opinion that is contrary to the Bible, therefore my opinion is wrong? Okay.

Just curious:

If the Bible is my final authority, as opposed to you or any one church, then what gives you the right or any one church, to make that authoritative statement?

 

[joe370]

No… the absolute Truth is GOD! I asked you once and you have yet to show us where the Bible claims it is the final authority? Where does Jesus teach written scripture is the final authority? You make all sorts of wild claims about Mary,yet you cannot provide a single verse where says the Bible is the final authority?

Like ufamtobie said:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=606701

There can only be One Church that has the Final Authority.

Matt 18:15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.

Jesus Christ himself says that the Church has the final Authority to cast out those who do not LISTEN to the Church. Jesus Christ listed 3 steps:

1st. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.

2nd. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.

3rd. And if he will not hear them: Tell The CHURCH. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.

So in your opinion which step had the Final Authority?

Above Matt 18:18 In the 3rd step Jesus Christ did not give the Final Authority to everyone to bind, bound, loose, or loosed upon earth or also in heaven this only the Church has the Authority to do, Guided by the Holy Spirit.

There’s only one Church that has this Final Authority in all regards to the teachings of Christ and the Laws of God and it is the Catholic Church, the Church of the Early Church Fathers, who compiled the New Testament, the unbroken line of succession of the Popes from Peter to Pope Benedict XVI, rich in History and Facts, the Church that still stands for over 2000 years and counting until HE COMES AGAIN with the same teachings from day one to the present. Amen

Hard to argue against…

 

[Nicea325]

Like ufamtobie said:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=606701

Hard to argue against…

It just blows my mind away how so many Bible-Only folks say the Bible is the final authority? In order to believe such a belief,one would expect the Bible to clearly say it out loud without any doubt? More important, Jesus himself would be saying it and there would be no need for Him to make us wonder if the Bible is the final authority? Likewise,according to my NKJV Study Bible the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth,not the Bible.

Bottomline is simple: People are the ones who made up such a belief…not GOD!

 

[KathleenGee]

They don’t want to study history…one told me it was just too much.

 

[E.E.N.S]

They don’t want to study history…one told me it was just too much.

Cardinal Newman famously said, "to be steeped in history is to cease to be Protestant."

 

[Good_Fella]

Full of grace does not interpret sinless, that is your hermeneutic. Mary was not the first tabernacle, the Tabernacle of God is seen as early as the Pentateuch.

Mary is the sacred Ark of the New Covenant having held the Divine Word made flesh, the true Manna come down from heaven - the Bread of life - and the eternal High Priest in the order of Melchizadek.

Your argument that Mary was born without sin has issues if as you say, sin is passed from both parents. The Bible states that Jesus was born of Mary and the Holy Spirit, He is the only person in the Bible to not have natural parents except Adam and Eve.

But Mary was a natural parent, since Jesus was born of her and acquired his human nature from her. It was because of the Immaculate Conception that Jesus did not inherit a sinful nature. As St. Paul tells us: “He was like us in all things but sin.” In other words, Jesus was not inclined to sin in his humanity. We mustn’t confuse our Lord’s human nature with his divine nature in the hypostatic union.

Using your own argument Mary had to have original sin since she had two natural parents and Jesus did not since he did not have a natural father.

Because Mary had a natural father and mother, she was implicated in the sin of Adam, unlike Jesus who, nevertheless, experienced the consequences of original sin save poor judgment, concupiscence, and the corruption of death, not unlike his mother.

Jesus is sinless due to Him being able not to sin.

In his humanity, Jesus also relied on God’s actual grace which flowed from his divine nature in his substantial union with the Father. In his Letter to the Hebrews, St. Paul tells us that he was made perfect through suffering and obedience.

PAX
:heaven:

 

[RevG]

No… the absolute Truth is GOD! I asked you once and you have yet to show us where the Bible claims it is the final authority? Where does Jesus teach written scripture is the final authority? You make all sorts of wild claims about Mary,yet you cannot provide a single verse where says the Bible is the final authority?

16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be competent, equipped for every good work. (ESV)

All scripture…not traditions of the catholic church. If you take issue with this take it up with God. He wrote the Bible not the catholic church, He preserved the Bible. He said the Bible (Scripture) is God breathed, and that through it we may be equipped for every good work.