Mary, "Sister of Aaron"

[exoflare]

This developed from another topic as a side discussion. Here’s how it started to get everyone situated…

“O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) [not the brother of Mûsa (Moses), but he was another pious man at the time of Maryam (Mary)]! …” (Qur’an 19:28)

exoflare:

Where else is this other “Aaron” you speak of mentioned?

Edris:

Peace Brother

Prophet Aaron (brother of Moses pbuh) is mentioned 19times in the Qur’an and Prophet Moses pbuh is mentioned 134 times. All verses that mention Prophet Aaron he’s mentioned in conjunction with his brother Moses, except 1 verse (Qur’an 4:163) where Prophet Aaron is mentioned with 10 other prophets in the same verse, but prophet Moses is not mentioned there (but we know that the Aaron in this verse 4:163 is a Prophet). Also in Surah 20, verses 9 to 100, talks about the story of Prophets Moses and Aaron when God sent them to Pharaoh, so we know also who is Aaron here, the same one (The Prophet and Brother of Moses).

The only Verse in the Qur’an where the name Aaron is mentioned without his brother Moses or any other prophet is this verse (Qur’an 19:28) “O sister of Aaron……”, so without getting near the interpretation of the Qur’an we know that this Aaron is not the same as Prophet Aaron, cause he could’ve said “O sister of Aaron and Moses ……” or maybe “O sister of Moses….”.

Now open any one of the four books of the Qur’an interpretation (Al-Jalalain, Al-Kurtubi, At-Tabari, and Ebn Kathir) they all say the same story that some Muslims in the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh, thought that this Aaron was Prophet Aaron brother of Moses, so they went to Muhammad pbuh and asked him about it, he said that he was a pious man at the time of Mary, and that the Jews at that time used this name a lot specially for the pious. And Mary pbuh used to pray and devout like him. [This is why they called her sister of Aaron, no blood relation, just an indication that they where the same in devotion to God].

I hope this clears the issue, if not, I don’t mind to discuss it further and even go through them verse by verse (19 verses of prophet Aaron and the 1 verse of Aaron the pious man)

I wish you do some explanation too regarding Mathew (1:1), Luke (3:23), and Mark (1:1). And just a side question if as in Mathew (1:1) Jesus is the Son of David, the Son of Abraham. Then how come in John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham, was I am. !!!

Take your time but give me some reasonable answers, thanks.

Brother Luigi I appreciate what u said, but, we are not fighting or anything, infact i like to answer questions about my religion, it increases my faith in God. If you feel offended by my questions, then please disregard them, and you are not obliged to answer.

Peace

exoflare:

It looks like Luigi started explaining the verses you asked about already, although I haven’t had a chance to look at that yet. Anyway what you said still doesn’t answer my question. Why is it important that some random person named Aaron was just mentioned for no reason here? How do you know that the words “brother” or “sister” are ever used to mean someone who is the same in level of piousness? I’ve never heard any definition of the word remotely like this. Is there any evidence this interpretation of the word was ever used elsewhere, or that the name “Aaron” was some sort of title given to the pious?

It really sounds to me from what you said that Mohammed was just trying to talk his way out of an obvious mistake here and his followers at the time were only all too ready to accept any explanation given.

continued…

 

[exoflare]

(cont’d from last post…)

Edris:

Peace brother

Your Question was one sentence where else is this “Aaron” you speak of mentioned?

As I said in my lengthy answer he was mentioned once, and without any relation to Prophet Moses or an indication that this Aaron in the verse was a prophet.

Now you have other questions:

(Note: emphasis mine >>)

1) Why is it important that some random person named Aaron was just mentioned for no reason here?

In one of the books of Interpretation (At-Tabari), it says that Aaron the pious was well known that on the day he died, 40,000 Jews went to burry his body. And all four books of the Qur’an Interpretation as I mentioned before say that Maryam (pbuh) used to worship God like him. (This is why they called her sister of Aaron).
The reason he’s mentioned is because Maryam (pbuh) brought Jesus (pbuh) child, and she didn’t have a husband, so the Jewish where shocked and said “Oh sister of Aaron, your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman” (Qur’an 19:28), so they couldn’t believe that Maryam who was very devoted to God like Aaron (the pious man) could do such a thing.

** 2) How do you know that the words “brother” or “sister” are ever used to mean someone who is the same in level of piousness?**

I have many examples from the Qur’an and Prophet Muhammad’s sayings (ahadith),
But, I guess one verse is enough to answer your question.

“The believers are nothing else than brothers. So make reconciliation between your brothers, and fear Allâh, that you may receive mercy.” (Qur’an 49:10)

** 3) I’ve never heard any definition of the word remotely like this. Is there any evidence this interpretation of the word was ever used elsewhere, or that the name “Aaron” was some sort of title given to the pious?**

As the prophet pbuh said the name was used a lot at that time, so it’s not a surprising coincidence that Maryam used to emulate someone called Aaron in worshiping God. In Islam the Sunni use the name Muhammad and Ahmad a lot. The Shiiaa on the other hand use the names Ali, Hasan, and Husein. It’s not surprising to find many mosque imams’ called Muhammad or Ali. (I guess maybe we should consult a Jewish source on this one, I’ll see what i can do, and if you have Jewish friends maybe you could help).

** 4) It really sounds to me from what you said that Mohammed was just trying to talk his way out of an obvious mistake here and his followers at the time were only all too ready to accept any explanation given.**

I still don’t know why you find it hard to understand?. And How is it an obvious mistake?, the story of Maryam pbuh is mentioned a number of times in the Qur’an, from different angles (each time for a specific reason for a special wisdom to take, not just a repetition) and they don’t contradict with each other. A whole chapter in the Qur’an is called (The Family of Imran) chapter 3 inwhich more information about Maryam (pbuh) is given, like for example it talks about her family, why her mother sent her to Jerusalem in the first place, how did Prophet Zakayah (pbuh) adopted her, etc. there’s even many things that we know about her that Jews and Christians have no clue about.
There is something else I have to point out, Allah promised the Muslims 3 things: 1-To protect the Qur’an from distortion (fabrication), 2-To Protect Prophet Muhammad from being killed (like for example assassination etc., which was tried a number of times by the Jews and the infidels of Quraish) 3-To explain to us the meaning of the Qur’an.
The three promises about the Qur’an and the Messenger where fulfilled. “It is for Us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur’ân), And when We have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Gabriel), then follow you its (the Qur’ân’s) recital. Then it is for Us (Allâh) to make it clear to you,” (Qur’an 75:17-19) , So the details of who Aaron in this verse was (the prophet or the pious man) is from Allah, he explained to him. The explanation of the verses used to be revealed to the prophet after the verses where revealed. So in many occasions the prophet and the companions used to guess on the meaning of the verse until Allah reveals it’s meaning (which from the ahadith we know that sometimes it used to take up to a day).

Peace

^^ All quotes above from Why did Saudi Arabia ban Bible?

 

[exoflare]

Alrighty then.

1) Why is it important that some random person named Aaron was just mentioned for no reason here?

In one of the books of Interpretation (At-Tabari), it says that Aaron the pious was well known that on the day he died, 40,000 Jews went to burry his body. And all four books of the Qur’an Interpretation as I mentioned before say that Maryam (pbuh) used to worship God like him. (This is why they called her sister of Aaron).
The reason he’s mentioned is because Maryam (pbuh) brought Jesus (pbuh) child, and she didn’t have a husband, so the Jewish where shocked and said “Oh sister of Aaron, your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman” (Qur’an 19:28), so they couldn’t believe that Maryam who was very devoted to God like Aaron (the pious man) could do such a thing.

If this “Aaron” you mention (who was a contemporary of Mary) was this well known, don’t you think history would at least provide some evidence of his existence? It seems like the only evidence this guy supposedly ever lived was something Mohammed said 600+ years later.

 

[exoflare]

2) How do you know that the words “brother” or “sister” are ever used to mean someone who is the same in level of piousness?

I have many examples from the Qur’an and Prophet Muhammad’s sayings (ahadith),

But, I guess one verse is enough to answer your question.

“The believers are nothing else than brothers. So make reconciliation between your brothers, and fear Allâh, that you may receive mercy.” (Qur’an 49:10)

This interpretation of “brother”/“sister” that you mention here is used to refer to people that share your same faith… the Jews used this very same interpretation, and I’ve heard it many times. But that still doesn’t explain this alleged practice of calling someone “brother” or “sister”, not because they are of the same religion, but **because they are **just as pious. When the Jews (or any other faith that uses this idiom, for that matter) use this phrase, they can be referring to someone way more devout than they are or much less devout and it would still apply as long as the person was a fellow Jew. How devout or pious somebody was didn’t even play a factor here.

 

[exoflare]

3) I’ve never heard any definition of the word remotely like this. Is there any evidence this interpretation of the word was ever used elsewhere, or that the name “Aaron” was some sort of title given to the pious?

As the prophet pbuh said the name was used a lot at that time, so it’s not a surprising coincidence that Maryam used to emulate someone called Aaron in worshiping God. In Islam the Sunni use the name Muhammad and Ahmad a lot. The Shiiaa on the other hand use the names Ali, Hasan, and Husein. It’s not surprising to find many mosque imams’ called Muhammad or Ali. (I guess maybe we should consult a Jewish source on this one, I’ll see what i can do, and if you have Jewish friends maybe you could help).

I’m not sure whether the name actually WAS used a lot at that time though, apart from what Mohammed claimed. Maybe it was, but even so, that’s not what I was asking. You said that "the Jews at that time used this name a lot specially for the pious." This would mean that in some cases, even if Aaron wasn’t a person’s given name, people would start to refer to him as Aaron because of how pious he developed a reputation of being. It’s this custom that I’m asking for evidence of here.

btw, sorry though… I don’t know any Jews. I know a few Muslims, but that wouldn’t really apply here.

 

[exoflare]

Edris:

there’s even many things that we know about her that Jews and Christians have no clue about.

Anything with evidence besides “the Quran says so”?

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

Anything with evidence besides “the Quran says so”?

Peace Exoflare,

I looked up the topic on the whyislam.org forum to see if it was discussed before…here is the link

whyislam.org/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4049&KW=aaron&PN=0&TPN=1

 

[Edris]

Peace

Thanks Brother for opening a new thread to discuss the “sister of Aaron…” assumed an error in the Qur’an. Up till now I was discussing this issue from my own, going back to the resources that I have (i.e. the Qur’an, its interpretations, and the ahadith (prophets’ saying)) and inshallah (God willing) I’ll continue to do so. I want to draw your attention that for me as a Muslim, and for all Muslims in the world, a single mistake in the Qur’an whether big or small, is not acceptable for us, this is how much we believe that our book hasn’t been corrupted or fabricated, and that these are the same words that Allah (swt) revealed to his Messenger (Muhammad pbuh) more than 1400 years ago, Not like 7 books (Apocrypha) considered as “haven’t met the criteria of divine inspiration”, not four Gospels (originally one Gospel), not “101 contradictions of the Bible”.

I realized from a quick research I did yesterday, that Christians for a long time have been using this so called error (Sister of Aaron) in the Qur’an a lot to prove two claims: 1- The Qur’an contain errors and 2- That Muhammad has copied the Qur’an from the previous scriptures (The Bible). I don’t want the 2nd part to interfere in this thread and this is why I’m mentioning it here. The second claim is answered by Dr. Zakir, here’s the link (drzakirnaik.com/pages/qanda/39.php). So I’m going to focus on just claim one and specifically regarding “Sister of Aaron”.

As I said in previous posts, Prophet Moses has been mentioned in the Qur’an 134 times. The name Aaron is mentioned 20 times (19 times referring to Prophet Aaron, the brother of Prophet Moses, and 1 time referring to a Pious (religious, But Not a Prophet) man who lived in the time of Maryam (Mother of Jesus pbuh)).

I know this will sound too much but I have to show you all the verses where the name Aaron is mentioned in the Qur’an, in some cases I might have to quote the verses before and/or after the verse in which the name is mentioned   to make clear the point.   Please, I ask you to read the verses slowly and reflect on them, as Allah (swt) ask us to do  “*Do they not then consider the Qur'ân carefully? Had it been from other than Allâh, they would surely have found therein much contradiction*.”  (Qur’an 4:82)

continue…

 

[Edris]

1. Qur’an 2:248
   
   “And their Prophet [Samuel ] said to them: Verily! The sign of His Kingdom is that there shall come to you At-Tâbût (a wooden box), wherein is Sakinah (peace and reassurance) from your Lord and a remnant of that which Musâ (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron) left behind, carried by the angels. Verily, in this is a sign for you if you are indeed believers.”
2. Qur’an 4:163

“Verily, We have inspired you (O Muhammad) as We inspired Nûh (Noah) and the Prophets after him; We (also) inspired Ibrâhim (Abraham), Ismâ’il (Ishmael), Ishâque (Isaac), Ya’qûb (Jacob), and AlAsbât [the twelve sons of Ya’qûb (Jacob)], 'Iesa (Jesus), Ayub (Job), Yûnus (Jonah), **Hârûn (Aaron), ** and Sulaimân (Solomon), and to Dawûd (David) We gave the Zabûr (Psalms).”

Although Prophet Moses (pbuh) is not mentioned in this verse, despite that it’s clear that Aaron in this verse is the Prophet (i.e. the brother of Moses).

1. Qur’an 6:84

“And We bestowed upon him Ishâque (Isaac) and Ya’qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dawûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayub (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), **Mûsa (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). ** Thus do We reward the gooddoers.”

1. Qur’an 7:120 – 122

“And the sorcerers fell down prostrate. They said: "We believe in the Lord of the 'Alamîn (mankind, jinns and all that exists). "The Lord of Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron)."”

1. Qur’an 7:142

“And We appointed for Mûsa (Moses) thirty nights and added (to the period) ten (more), and he completed the term, appointed by his Lord, of forty nights. **And Mûsa (Moses) said to his brother Hârûn (Aaron): ** “Replace me among my people, act in the Right Way (by ordering the people to obey Allâh and to worship Him Alone) and follow not the way of the Mufsidûn (mischief-makers).”

1. Qur’an 10:75

“Then after them We sent Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron) to Fir’aun (Pharaoh) and his chiefs with Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). But they behaved arrogantly and were Mujrimûn (disbelievers, sinners, polytheists, criminals, etc.) folk.”

1. Qur’an 19:51-53

“And mention in the Book (this Qur’ân) **Mûsa (Moses). ** Verily! He was chosen and he was a Messenger (and) a Prophet. And We called him from the right side of the Mount, and made him draw near to Us for a talk with him [Mûsa (Moses)]. And We bestowed on him his brother Hârûn (Aaron), (also) a Prophet, out of Our Mercy.”

1. Qur’an 20:25-32

“[Mûsa (Moses)] said: "O my Lord! Open for me my chest (grant me self-confidence, contentment, and boldness). "And ease my task for me; "And make loose the knot (the defect) from my tongue, (i.e. remove the incorrectness from my speech) [That occurred as a result of a brand of fire which **Mûsa (Moses) put in his mouth when he was an infant]. "That they understand my speech, "And appoint for me a helper from my family, "Hârûn (Aaron), my brother; "Increase my strength with him, "And let him share my task (of conveying Allâh’s Message and Prophethood),”

1. Qur’an 20:70

“So the magicians fell down prostrate. They said: "We believe in the Lord of Hârûn (Aaron) and Mûsa (Moses)."

1. Qur’an 20:90-94 just a note: Prophet Aaron is mentioned twice here(just so that you don’t loose count and get confused later)

“And Hârûn (Aaron) indeed had said to them beforehand: “O my people! You are being tried in this, and verily, your Lord is (Allâh) the Most Beneficent, so follow me and obey my order.” They said: “We will not stop worshipping it (i.e. the calf), until Mûsa (Moses) returns to us.” [Mûsa (Moses)] said: "O Hârûn (Aaron)! What stopped you when you saw them going astray; “That you followed me not (according to my advice to you)? Have you then disobeyed my order?” He [Hârûn (Aaron)] said: "O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard, nor by my head! Verily, I feared lest you should say: ‘You have caused a division among the Children of Israel, and you have not respected my word!’ "

continue…

 

[Edris]

1. Qur’an 21:48

“And indeed We granted to Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron) the criterion (of right and wrong), and a shining light * and a Reminder for Al-Muttaqûn (the pious)”

1. Qur’an 23:45
   “Then We sent **Mûsa (Moses) and his brother Hârûn (Aaron), ** with Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and manifest authority,”
2. Qur’an 25:35

“And indeed We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Scripture [the Taurât (Torah)], and placed his brother Hârûn (Aaron) with him as a helper;”

1. Qur’an 26:10-13

“And (remember) when your Lord called Mûsa (Moses) (saying): “Go to the people who are Zâlimûn (polytheists and wrong-doing), The people of Fir’aun (Pharaoh). Will they not fear Allâh and become righteous?” He said: "My Lord! Verily, I fear that they will belie me, "And my breast straitens, and my tongue expresses not well. So send for Hârûn (Aaron) (to come along with me).”

1. Qur’an 26:48

“"The Lord of Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron)."”

1. Qur’an 28:34

““And my brother Hârûn (Aaron) he is more eloquent in speech than me so send him with me as a helper to confirm me. Verily! I fear that they will belie me.””

1. Qur’an 37:114

“And, indeed We gave Our Grace to Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron).”

1. Qur’an 37:120

“Salâmun (peace) be upon Mûsa (Moses) and Hârûn (Aaron)!"

continue…*

 

[Edris]

19 times Prophet Aaron mentioned, I’ll remind you in the verses at number 10 he was mentioned twice. Now read this verse and compare it to the previous verses and tell me if this Aaron is the same, as prophet Aaron, I can’t personally can’t tell from reading verses in Arabic, English and French if this man is a Prophet or Not, Allah (swt) did Not refer to him as a prophet neither did he mention His brother Prophet Moses in the verse or around it. As I said in a previous post He could’ve easily said “O sister of Harun (Aaron) and Musa (Moses) your father was not………” or “O sister of Musa (Moses) your father was not ……”

Qur’an 19:28
““O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman.”

---

#1, Prophet Musa (Moses) pbuh is not mentioned in this story (Note: he is mentioned somewhere in surat Maryam chapter 19, but not related to this story), Surat Maryam (Chapter 19) is a very beautiful chapter read it, it wont take you more than 20 to 30 minutes to read. So there’s no clue that this Aaron (the Pious) is Prophet Moses’ brother.

 In Chapter 19 (Surat Maryam) the story of the Birth of Prophet Jesus pbuh starts from verse 16 ( And mention in the Book (the Qur'ân, O Muhammad , the story of) Maryam (Mary),………)  and ends at verse 40 (Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is thereon. And to Us they all shall be returned).

#2, The only time where Prophet Aaron is mentioned without his brother (prophet Moses) even remotely is in (Qur’an 4:163) -go back to number 2), but he’s mentioned in the same verse with 12 other prophets, and Allah (swt) referred to them as Prophets, so we know that Aaron in Chapter 4 verse 163 is a Prophet. And I personally don’t know any Prophet called Aaron other than Prophet Moses’ Brother.

#3, The 19 times where Prophet Aaron is mentioned in the Qur’an, Maryam (pbuh) is not mentioned in relation or not. And not even in the whole story, i.e. incident (not the whole chapter). I have to point your attention that you might find the name of Prophet Moses in the same verse or even story , with the names of Prophet Jesus and his mother Mary (just a small note: Maryam is not a prophettess) (peace be upon them all), and that’s normal because Allah (swt) gave Moses pbuh the Torah and Jesus pbuh the Gospel. And the Qur’an on many occasions, when talking about Jesus pbuh mentions his name as “Son of Maryam”, it’s like a reminder for the Christians that he’s not the “Son of God”. So this is an example of where the names Maryam (mother of Jesus) and Moses pbuh are mentioned in the same verse:

“And indeed, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) – The Holy Spirit]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.” (Qur’an 2:87)

---

Ok I’ll stop here tonight, to be continued later.

Peace.

 

[cute2904]

Edris:

Peace(drzakirnaik.com/pages/qanda/39.php).

Last time when I quoted some verses, a muslim said I got it from sam shamoun and should not believe on him. Then I will do the same thing to you. Zakir Naik is nothing as well.

answering-islam.org/Responses/Naik/index.htm
%between%

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

Peace Exoflare,

I looked up the topic on the whyislam.org forum to see if it was discussed before…here is the link

whyislam.org/forum/forum_pos…aron&PN=0&TPN=1

I looked at this. The thing is, there’s just nothing on there that answers any of my questions. Not even in Joseph Alison’s incredibly long initial post. For one thing he’s trying to find a way to possibly prove that Joseph of Arimathea was Mary’s father (not true anyway, it was a man named Joachim) as if this will provide “another unshakable proof” (oookay…) of the “divinity of the Holy Quran”.

Okay, two things here. First, I don’t see how we’re demonized for calling Jesus “divine” and yet he can use the very same term in referring to a binded stack of paper. And even if Joseph of Arimathea somehow was Mary’s father, it still wouldn’t prove anything for the purpose of this discussion.

Next, we have this little gem:

Shenango:

Assalamu 'Aleikum Joseph, This is a fine piece of work, but you didn’t have to go to all these lengths, and certainly not to “decode” anything! The matter is far simpler. The fact is, this issue our Catholic “friends” are raising was raised to our Prophet (PBUH) by the Najran Christians during his lifetime! And he responded to it, and his answer is recorded in a Hadith of Sahih Muslim’s!

Check out this page.

The page he posts uses the same reasoning Edris uses in response to my “question #2” earlier in this topic. He mentions how “son” and “daughter” are sometimes used as an idiom for descendant, and also how the terms “brother” and “sister” can be used to address other members in your community of believers. Both of these expressions truly were used in that time and culture, and I was already aware of them… the problem is, it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed! The writer of the above link seems to try and stray off the subject ever-so-slyly evade the actual question at hand by citing all sorts of other idiomatic expressions that use words for family relations. The author’s reasoning seems to be that, since the word “sister” was sometimes used idiomatically, it shouldn’t matter HOW it was used in this way.

(cont’d…)

 

[exoflare]

I wasn’t surprised by Shenango’s further triumphalist knee-jerk replies in this thread… If anybody else remembers he used to post sometimes on these forums also. His strategy (and a typical one at that, for arrogant people like him) for debate is pretty much limited to:

1. steering the topic in a slightly different direction/putting words in his opponent’s mouth.
2. prematurely declaring victory,
3. using insults,
4. quickly posting a link to some Islamic site while claiming “this refutes your argument perfectly” as a defense to any further questioning,
5. throwing out tangents in the hope that the original topic will eventually be forgotten.

Here’s another particular segment of his little soliloquy here, in case anyone else is interested. I just found it pretty amusing…

Shenango:
Assalamu 'Aleikum Naadir,

The Hadith is here: Sahih Muslim, Bk. #25, #5326

Mughira b. Shu’ba reported: When I came to Najran, they (the Christians of Najran) asked me: You read “O sister of Harun” (i. e. Hadrat Maryam) in the Qur’an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus. When I came back to Allah’s Messenger (may peace be upon him) I asked him about that, whereupon he said: The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostles and pious persons who had gone before them.

It’s also quoted on the page I linked, as well as the analysis by George Sale that Jermin quoted. You know, I must say that every time I see a Christian make this criticism I laugh on the inside, and chuckle outwardly at how surprised they’ll be when I spring the trap (this Hadith) on them. I just wish I could see the looks on their faces when they find out that one of (what they consider to be) their best criticisms against the Qur’an today was one **made and *answered ***over 1,400 years ago!

Finding out this fact inevitably stuns them, because to them, they wish to have the last laugh at our Prophet’s expense, who they (falsely) believe made up the Qur’an however he wished, with people just buying whatever he said: in other words, he deceived people. It simply doesn’t occur to them that the Prophet (PBUH) had detractors of the Qur’an during his own life (Christians, Jews and idolaters alike), and yet persisted in his message. They (the modern Christian polemics) think they’re geniuses, uncovering a fraud 1,400 years later. Oh just to be able to see the look on their faces…when they discover that it’s actually our Prophet (PBUH) who had the last laugh at their expense, and not the other way around!!!
http://www.whyislam.org/forum/smile...ttp://whyislam.org/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif

I can’t tell if he’s serious in this last part about how the Christians are typically “stunned” by this so-called answer in the hadith… as if it were even a sensible answer! In any case, I think he just has a really high opinion of himself.

 

[exoflare]

Edris:

19 times Prophet Aaron mentioned, I’ll remind you in the verses at number 10 he was mentioned twice. Now read this verse and compare it to the previous verses and tell me if this Aaron is the same, as prophet Aaron, I can’t personally can’t tell from reading verses in Arabic, English and French if this man is a Prophet or Not, Allah (swt) did Not refer to him as a prophet neither did he mention His brother Prophet Moses in the verse or around it. As I said in a previous post He could’ve easily said “O sister of Harun (Aaron) and Musa (Moses) your father was not………” or “O sister of Musa (Moses) your father was not ……”

Qur’an 19:28
““O sister (i.e. the like) of Hârûn (Aaron) your father was not a man who used to commit adultery, nor your mother was an unchaste woman.”

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#1, Prophet Musa (Moses) pbuh is not mentioned in this story (Note: he is mentioned somewhere in surat Maryam chapter 19, but not related to this story), Surat Maryam (Chapter 19) is a very beautiful chapter read it, it wont take you more than 20 to 30 minutes to read. So there’s no clue that this Aaron (the Pious) is Prophet Moses’ brother.

In Chapter 19 (Surat Maryam) the story of the Birth of Prophet Jesus pbuh starts from verse 16 ( And mention in the Book (the Qur’ân, O Muhammad , the story of) Maryam (Mary),………) and ends at verse 40 (Verily! We will inherit the earth and whatsoever is thereon. And to Us they all shall be returned).

#2, The only time where Prophet Aaron is mentioned without his brother (prophet Moses) even remotely is in (Qur’an 4:163) -go back to number 2), but he’s mentioned in the same verse with 12 other prophets, and Allah (swt) referred to them as Prophets, so we know that Aaron in Chapter 4 verse 163 is a Prophet. And I personally don’t know any Prophet called Aaron other than Prophet Moses’ Brother.

#3, The 19 times where Prophet Aaron is mentioned in the Qur’an, Maryam (pbuh) is not mentioned in relation or not. And not even in the whole story, i.e. incident (not the whole chapter). I have to point your attention that you might find the name of Prophet Moses in the same verse or even story , with the names of Prophet Jesus and his mother Mary (just a small note: Maryam is not a prophettess) (peace be upon them all), and that’s normal because Allah (swt) gave Moses pbuh the Torah and Jesus pbuh the Gospel. And the Qur’an on many occasions, when talking about Jesus pbuh mentions his name as “Son of Maryam”, it’s like a reminder for the Christians that he’s not the “Son of God”. So this is an example of where the names Maryam (mother of Jesus) and Moses pbuh are mentioned in the same verse:

“And indeed, We gave Mûsa (Moses) the Book and followed him up with a succession of Messengers. And We gave 'Iesa (Jesus), the son of Maryam (Mary), clear signs and supported him with Rûh-ul-Qudus [Jibrael (Gabriel) – The Holy Spirit]. Is it that whenever there came to you a Messenger with what you yourselves desired not, you grew arrogant? Some, you disbelieved and some, you killed.” (Qur’an 2:87)

First of all, stop assuming I’m just going to blindly agree with you for no reason that everything in the Quran is from God. You’re operating from a pre-determined belief that everything in the Quran must be true and then trying to make every other piece of information fit around that assumption, and I’m not. Please try to be objective here.

That said, what does it matter if the Aaron mentioned here is explicitly referred to as “Prophet Aaron” or not? All we know for sure is that the guy mentioned was someone named Aaron, that may or may not have been a prophet. The absence of that prefix “Prophet-” really doesn’t have anything to do with what we’re discussing. Unless stating the prefix “Prophet-” was somehow required everytime you refer to a prophet’s name, which I doubt.

The other stuff you mentioned doesn’t really have anything to do with what I asked either. The point is that there is no evidence the idiomatic use of “sister” that is claimed by Mohammed ever existed. I don’t know why he didn’t use the term “sister of Moses” instead, but again that’s just not the issue!

I really don’t know why everyone has so far tried to answer this question by straying off the topic. I just want to know if you have any evidence that the specific idiom claimed here for “brother” and “sister” (the like of… in piousness) ever existed at all!

 

[exoflare]

Edris, I noticed you had time to post that long, angry discourse in the “Interesting notes” topic but somehow weren’t able to answer anything here. I’m sure this was an innocent mistake, right?

 

[Faith101]

I looked at this. The thing is, there’s just nothing on there that answers any of my questions. Not even in Joseph Alison’s incredibly long initial post. For one thing he’s trying to find a way to possibly prove that Joseph of Arimathea was Mary’s father (not true anyway, it was a man named Joachim) as if this will provide “another unshakable proof” (oookay…) of the “divinity of the Holy Quran”.

Okay, two things here. First, I don’t see how we’re demonized for calling Jesus “divine” and yet he can use the very same term in referring to a binded stack of paper. And even if Joseph of Arimathea somehow was

Mary’s father, it still wouldn’t prove anything for the purpose of this discussion.

Exoflare…we believe Quran is God’s words, therefore divine REVELATION. We dont WORSHIP it, as you do Jesus Christ peace be upon him. There is a difference.

 

[exoflare]

Faith101:

Exoflare…we believe Quran is God’s words, therefore DIVINE revelation. We dont WORSHIP it, as you do Jesus Christ peace be upon him. There is a difference.

That’s what I thought, and I believe you. Now if only Muslims would take our word for it just as readily when we have to unanimously declare over and over that we only believe in one God. (not three!)

Bleh, but anyway… sorry, that was off topic. Chop off this branch of the tree!!

 

[Faith101]

exoflare:

I wasn’t surprised by Shenango’s further triumphalist knee-jerk replies in this thread… If anybody else remembers he used to post sometimes on these forums also. His strategy (and a typical one at that, for arrogant people like him) for debate is pretty much limited to:

1. steering the topic in a slightly different direction/putting words in his opponent’s mouth.
2. prematurely declaring victory,
3. using insults,
4. quickly posting a link to some Islamic site while claiming “this refutes your argument perfectly” as a defense to any further questioning,
5. throwing out tangents in the hope that the original topic will eventually be forgotten.

Here’s another particular segment of his little soliloquy here, in case anyone else is interested. I just found it pretty amusing…

I can’t tell if he’s serious in this last part about how the Christians are typically “stunned” by this so-called answer in the hadith… as if it were even a sensible answer! In any case, I think he just has a really high opinion of himself.

i’m getting confused. InshAllah, you can clear it up.

You say that there is a mistake in the Quran, because people of Mariam’s time called her “sister of aaron”. Joseph ALlison on the whyislam.org site, explained how their could be a genealogy between them (which you just disregarded without any proof or explanation). Regardless of that, people can be called brothers or sisters of someone regardless of them being blood related or not (you said that yeah that stuff took place during that time, but it has nothing to do with what we are talking about)

Like Mohamed peace be upon him, said that he is the brother of Jesus Christ peace be upon him, adding “our mothers are different, but our religion is one”. Like the muslims living and those that are dead are called brothers/sister in faith.

In Mary’s time, people were shocked that she came with a baby when she was not yet wed…and they said “oh sister of aaron” meaning “oh you who we thought was a pious person” what did you do?

I’m gong all over the place, and after htis long post…please state simply, where does your opposition to the things presented lie now?

 

[exoflare]

Okay, that’s fine. First if Mohammed ever did call himself the “brother of Jesus” do you know where I could see the exact quote?

I’m just saying all these claims keep being made here to try to explain the “sister of Aaron” verse, but they all have yet to be proven. Namely these assertions:

• Pious people in the time of Mary were often named/renamed “Aaron”.
• People in Mary’s time would sometimes refer to an ancestor as “brother” or “sister”.
• People in Mary’s time could be referred to their contemporaries as “brother” or “sister” to somebody, based on a similar level of piousness.

I’m asking for evidence that any of the above claims were actually true. So far, no evidence has been shown for any of them.