mary, the eternal virgin?

[adrift]

=Tantum ergo;6770739] The NORMAL reaction of a woman who was engaged and about to marry would have been, "Oh, so Joe and I are gonna have a boy, hurrah.’

But Mary says, “How?”

I have read through the thread. I might have missed this point so I am sorry if it has already been made.

The betrothal or engagement of Mary and Joseph is not the same as today.
Marriage was accomplished in two steps.
The first step was a marriage ceremony but the couple did not live together.
This part was called the betrothal. The wife, for they were married, would stay with her parents for about a year learning to take over her husbands household.
The second part was when he took her into his home.

It was the first part of the marriage that is referred to as the betrothal. They hadn’t started living together.
That is why in Matthew you see

Now this is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about. When his mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, but before they lived together, she was found with child through the holy Spirit.
19
Joseph her husband, since he was a righteous man, 8 yet unwilling to expose her to shame, decided to divorce her quietly.

And

Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home.

This makes her response very puzzeling. “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”

 

[adrift]

The Septuagint was not the original.

BTW, you haven’t commented about the idea there are other verses in the NT that back my use of ‘until’. Let me post them for you. I’ll ask some questions that I would like you to answer if you can.

Mt 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”
-did Joseph, Mary and Jesus stay in Egypt after Harod died? Using your use of ‘until’, yes.

.

Until only mean up to a certain point. All your examples illustrate that.

Joh 16:24 "Until now <2193> you have asked nothing in My name. Ask, and you will receive, that your joy may be full.
-are the apostles supposed to ask the Father in the Name of Jesus? Using your use of ‘until’, no.

Substitute the words up to this point with until.
Up to this point you have asked nothing. It does not speak of what happens after that point.
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

If there were no other versus to follow these versus we would not have known what happened. It is because there is more scripture that you can say yes.

Stay until word is brought to you does not say what will happen when word is brought.

Stay home until I call you. Does not say that after I call you that you will leave home but that is what you say would happen.

 

[JadeStarr]

VetA wrote:

when Jesus said to the apostle whom he loved “behold your mother” that did not literally mean that they were blood related, in Jesus’ day a woman was not allowed to live alone and since Joseph by that time was dead, Jesus had no brother, and Mary’s own father was dead Mary had to live with someone,​

This is interesting, how do you know this? It makes sense that Mary would need someone to provide for her when Jesus was gone, but I’ve never heard that a woman could not live alone.
Also, did Mary ever remarry when Joseph died?

 

[mark_a]

If you could post the exact quotes we can check out your idea.

If you can’t, please give me the references and I’ll post them.

Thank you.

Here ya go:
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).
David asks, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9).
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).
John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

 

[Nicea325]

Here ya go:
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).
David asks, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9).
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).
John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

Mark:

I have also read the same references from other biblical scholars. How cannot see how many will still deny it?

 

[adrift]

Until only mean up to a certain point. All your examples illustrate that.

Substitute the words up to this point with until.

Webster’s definition of until

Main Entry: 1un·til
Pronunciation: \ən-ˈtil, -ˈtel; ˈən-ˌ, -təl
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English, from un- (probably from Old Norse *und up to; akin to Old Norse unz up to, until, Old High German unt, Old English ende end) + til, till till
Date: 13th century
1 chiefly Scottish : to
2 —used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) **to a specified time **
3 : before 2 <we don’t open until ten>

Dokimas
We have dictionaries so that our definitions are standard not each person applying a different meanings to the same word. None of the definitions support your application of the word.

 

[Cable]

There’s no where in the Bible atleast where it implicitly states Mother Mary had other children, but in the language of the day, one would know if someone had said "your mother and your mother’s son). Which doesn’t happen anytime when Our Lord’s “brothers” are mentioned.

I believe if one is truly sincere with charity and love in their hearts (not pointing fingers at anyone), will accept Mother Mary had only one child.

God bless.

MJ

Either God had brothers on earth, or He didn’t. There’s only one Truth. This is not to “point a finger”, but rather to add, that someone has to have the final say, make the final call. The gospel writers say that everything that Jesus did and said isn’t in the Scriptures. Jesus didn’t write. Among other things, He taught, preached, explained His teachings and settled disputes. He gave authority to his apostles to do the same, and they in turn to their successors and so on, up through time, within this catholic, apostolic Church. With their oral teaching and preaching they and their successors converted the nations.

A doctrine such as; Jesus had brothers, is assumed by a Catholic to be false b/c it is contrary to the truth of the Church of the apostles of Jesus Christ.

 

[Dokimas]

I fully accept your examples of the use of the word “until”. It is YOU who refuses to accept the examples I furnished because the proves different use of the word. I never reject the word of God, but you seem to do just that.

Pretty strange for a guy who believes in Sola Scriptura to deny the Scriptures . . .

Whatever you think must be correct. I bow to you intelligence.

 

[Dokimas]

Who gave you or the Reverend the authority to promote as Truth your own interpretation of “until” or “bretheren” relative to the Virgin Mary.

If we’re correct, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Dokimas]

I believe if one is truly sincere with charity and love in their hearts (not pointing fingers at anyone), will accept Mother Mary had only one child.

MJ

This is quite a statement.

 

[Dokimas]

You know, Dokimas stands in the tradition of Helvidius. Maybe it is grounds for a new ecclesial community! [SIGN]The First Church of Helvidians! [/SIGN] I am sure I just read where Doki and his beloved are looking for a community. Perhaps if they can find a building, we can take up a collection and have a sign commissioned!

A few months ago I would not have expected this from Guanophore.

 

[Dokimas]

Until only mean up to a certain point. All your examples illustrate that.

Substitute the words up to this point with until.
Up to this point you have asked nothing. It does not speak of what happens after that point.
Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise, take the young Child and His mother, flee to Egypt, and stay there until <2193> I bring you word; for Herod will seek the young Child to destroy Him.”

If there were no other versus to follow these versus we would not have known what happened. It is because there is more scripture that you can say yes.

Stay until word is brought to you does not say what will happen when word is brought.

Stay home until I call you. Does not say that after I call you that you will leave home but that is what you say would happen.

Are you saying that in all situations, nothing changes after ‘until’ in all my verses?

God has given us intelligence; we can use it to understand context.

 

[Dokimas]

Here ya go:
Golden Box: Ark of the Old Covenant
The ark traveled to the house of Obed-edom in the hill country of Judea (2 Sam. 6:1-11).
Dressed as a priest, David danced and leapt in front of the ark (2 Sam. 6:14).
David asks, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Sam. 6:9).
David shouts in the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:15).
The ark remained in the house of Obed-edom for three months (2 Sam. 6:11).
The house of Obed-edom was blessed by the presence of the ark (2 Sam. 6:11).
The ark returns to its home and ends up in Jerusalem, where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. 6:12; 1 Kgs. 8:9-11).

Mary: Ark of the New Covenant
Mary traveled to the house of Elizabeth and Zechariah in the hill country of Judea (Luke 1:39).
John the Baptist - of priestly lineage - leapt in his mother’s womb at the approach of Mary (Luke 1:41).
Elizabeth asks, “Why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43).
Elizabeth “exclaimed with a loud cry” in the presence of the Mary (Luke 1:42).
Mary remained in the house of Elizabeth for three months (Luke 1:56).
The word blessed is used three times; surely the house was blessed by God (Luke 1:39-45).
Mary returns home and eventually ends up in Jerusalem, where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke 1:56; 2:21-22).

Very interesting. Thank you.

 

[elvisman]

Whatever you think must be correct. I bow to you intelligence.

Your curt responses to me and everybody else say just ONE thing:
You’ve run out of ammo. **
**
Don’t feel bad - ALL Protestant who deny Mary’s perpetual virginity eventually smash into a dead-end. Sacred Scripture, linguistics, Tradition, testimonies of the Early Church Fathers and plain ol’ logic are too much for the nay-sayers . . .

 

[Dokimas]

Webster’s definition of until

Dokimas
We have dictionaries so that our definitions are standard not each person applying a different meanings to the same word. None of the definitions support your application of the word.

Main Entry: 1un·til
Pronunciation: \ən-ˈtil, -ˈtel; ˈən-ˌ, -təl
Function: preposition
Etymology: Middle English, from un- (probably from Old Norse *und up to; akin to Old Norse unz up to, until, Old High German unt, Old English ende end) + til, till till
Date: 13th century
1 chiefly Scottish : to
2 —used as a function word to indicate continuance (as of an action or condition) to a specified time
3 : before 2 <we don’t open until ten>

I think this definition helps my understanding. Notice #2. Implies there could be a change after said time.

Notice #3. “we don’t open until ten” implies opening after ten. Joseph did not know Mary until Jesus was born.

 

[Dokimas]

Your curt responses to me and everybody else say just ONE thing:
You’ve run out of ammo.
**
Don’t feel bad - ALL** Protestant who deny Mary’s perpetual virginity eventually smash into a dead-end. Sacred Scripture, linguistics, Tradition, testimonies of the Early Church Fathers and plain ol’ logic are too much for the nay-sayers . . .

Wrong. It reveals I’m tired of banging my head against the wall.

I think you’re funny.

Oh yes… I don’t feel bad. I’m too amused.

 

[elvisman]

Wrong. It reveals I’m tired of banging my head against the wall.

I think you’re funny.

Oh yes… I don’t feel bad. I’m too amused.

This coming from the only Protestant I’ve ever known who rejects Strong’s Greek Concordance . . .

HEOS (Until) until 71, to 27, while 6, How much longer 4, before 4, as far as 3, Until 2, How long 2, still 2, even lo the point 2, all the way to 1, As many as 1, How much 1, completely 1, since 1, even 1, ended up 1, down to 1, as long as 1

 

[Dokimas]

**This coming from the only **Protestant I’ve ever known who rejects Strong’s Greek Concordance . . .

HEOS (Until) until 71, to 27, while 6, How much longer 4, before 4, as far as 3, Until 2, How long 2, still 2, even lo the point 2, all the way to 1, As many as 1, How much 1, completely 1, since 1, even 1, ended up 1, down to 1, as long as 1

You’re deceived on this matter and many with respect to what some non-catholics have said on this forum. I wonder how much of what you believe is also not exactly correct. Maybe there’s a pattern.

 

[elvisman]

You’re deceived on this matter and many with respect to what some non-catholics have said on this forum. I wonder how much of what you believe is also not exactly correct. Maybe there’s a pattern.

**And you STILL haven’t pointed us to any Biblical verse, Church tradition or extrabiblical source that says Mary gave birth to *****other ***children, have you?

---

**Yeah - that’s what I thought . . .

 

[mark_a]

Mark:

I have also read the same references from other biblical scholars. How cannot see how many will still deny it?

“Those who decry the intolerance of the Catholic Church are the most intolerant of all.”