Mary, the Immaculate Conception etc

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Roman Army

What Jesus said and what Christ directly told the apostles what to say is far different than what some Pope himself decides to declare some 1800 ys later. Why? Because Jesus was God incarnate and he spoke directly to his apostles on what to teach.While any Pope 1800 years later does not have Christ to speak to him directly, but is rather influenced by his own intellect, the cardinals around him and the wishes of the people at large. That is the big difference.
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                           You say, well the Holy Spirit directs him. That's the same claim all TV evangelists make . Oral Roberts once told everyone he was getting the cure for cancer from Christ if millions would be sent in. TV evangelists constantly tell their viewers, if God is speaking to you, then don't hesitate, write that check today and send it in to Brother do right ministries, care of get rich ministries. Or, the Lord has just told me,"Someone in the audience has hemorrhoids real bad." Yes you, the man who is squirming in his seat. Come forward, God told me he is going to heal you today. Praise God and pass the biscuits? Throw out your preparation H. 

                            Men and women since time in memorial have all said the Holy Spirit guides them. How then can we tell the truth? By what the fathers and scripture simply says. If it sounds to unbelievable, then it probably is. :)
 
From another perspective:

Do you believe that it is possible that God could protect someone from ever committing sin, by His Grace?

If so, then why do you persist in disbelief?

It is certainly possible, as all things are possible through God. Add to that an abundance of allegorical evidence that it does make sense that Mary was kept sinless by God’s Grace, as she is the perfect Ark of the Covenant, is it really so hard to have faith in God’s providence over Mary? How does it detract from your faith if you believe this doctrine?

Why do you require proof? Didn’t our Lord show us, through Thomas, that we need to live in* faith*? When the testimony of the early Christians (see the links in previous posts) and the solemn testimony of the Church throughout the ages testifies to the Truth of the doctrine, and the teaching is in harmony with Sacred Scripture (although not definitively proven from Scripture alone), on what grounds can you deny it? Just because it doesn’t seem or feel right to your understanding of the Bible? Remember that Satan is the great deceiver, and He used the words of Scripture to tempt Christ Himself. Pray that Jesus casts away the doubts the deceiver is whispering to you, that you may trust in His Church (the Church to which you have sworn to God through your confirmation to honor and uphold).

Pray unceasingly, my brother.

Peace,
javelin
 
Catholicholic
I understand, don't make waves. Life is easier that way and why question a faith that is as large as the Muslim faith? Like an ant holding back a tidal wave eh? I really don't in everyday worship. Just on forums. :) I go to mass, like every other Catholic, receive the Eucharist, take in the homily and sing hymns like everyone else. It is pretty much the same, week after week. Throw in a few raffle dinners. For myself I center my faith in Christ rather than novenas, Mary prayers, doing this right or that right. I know one thing. I am a sinner and no matter what I do, that won't save me, but solely my faith in Christ will. If Christ cannot save me, then nothing else matters.Shalom
 
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justcatholic:
Catholicholic

I understand, don’t make waves. Life is easier that way and why question a faith that is as large as the Muslim faith? Like an ant holding back a tidal wave eh? I really don’t in everyday worship. Just on forums. 🙂 I go to mass, like every other Catholic, receive the Eucharist, take in the homily and sing hymns like everyone else. It is pretty much the same, week after week. Throw in a few raffle dinners. For myself I center my faith in Christ rather than novenas, Mary prayers, doing this right or that right. I know one thing. I am a sinner and no matter what I do, that won’t save me, but solely my faith in Christ will. If Christ cannot save me, then nothing else matters.Shalom
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I will pray for you. I hope you dont always treat such great gifts as if they were trash. Remember when God gave such wonderful gifts as the mass he really expected us to upon it and take in the wonder of it fully. But it is only up to you to fully expect this gift and unwrap it.
 
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justcatholic:
What Jesus said and what Christ directly told the apostles what to say is far different than what some Pope himself decides to declare some 1800 ys later. Why? Because Jesus was God incarnate and he spoke directly to his apostles on what to teach.While any Pope 1800 years later does not have Christ to speak to him directly, but is rather influenced by his own intellect, the cardinals around him and the wishes of the people at large. That is the big difference.
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The wishes of the people at large? Abortion, contraception, homosexual marriage, divorce, female priests… the Church is influenced by the “wishes of the people at large”? This statement alone is verifiably false. In fact, the Church is the only Christian Church not to bend to popular will because it is protected by the Holy Spirit and is entrusted to pass down the deposit of faith.
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justcatholic:
You say, well the Holy Spirit directs him. That’s the same claim all TV evangelists make . Oral Roberts once told everyone he was getting the cure for cancer from Christ if millions would be sent in. TV evangelists constantly tell their viewers, if God is speaking to you, then don’t hesitate, write that check today and send it in to Brother do right ministries, care of get rich ministries. Or, the Lord has just told me,“Someone in the audience has hemorrhoids real bad.” Yes you, the man who is squirming in his seat. Come forward, God told me he is going to heal you today. Praise God and pass the biscuits? Throw out your preparation H.
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You are comparing the declaration of the ancient tradition of the Immaculate Conception as infallible doctrine to a televangelist who predicts the healing of hemorrhoids? At least you are honest about your distain for the Papacy.
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justcatholic:
Men and women since time in memorial have all said the Holy Spirit guides them. How then can we tell the truth? By what the fathers and scripture simply says. If it sounds to unbelievable, then it probably is. 🙂
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The bible addresses this when it warns of false prophets (read all of chapter 2 - in Peter’s second epistle). It is through apostolic succession that we are “led into all truth”. The successors of the Apostles are our Bishops (including the Bishop of Rome - the Pope). Random “men and women” who claim to be directed by the Holy Spirit including televangelists who predict the healing of hemorrhoids are false prophets as they are not successors to the Apostles.
 
javilin
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        Sure, God could do anything he desires and has. But that is not the question. Did God actually do this in history? Is it so clear and concise that a six year old could read it clearly in scripture and in the fathers and know it? I think not. For why was their differences of opinion among the fathers themselves if the immaculate conception teaching was always believed since the time of the apostles? If it were that clear and basic, there would have been no discussion.

      Also, Paul himself would have known about Mary when he spoke of mankind in general.There is** none ** righteous, no **not one**Also **all ** have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

    Let us say for the sake of argument God would have had Mary born without sin, when she came into the world. If this would have been the case, then Paul would have never wrote what he did in Romans. He would have mentioned that Mary was the exception. Also the other New Testament writers would have as well. Why did the apostles fail to mention this about Mary, if that was the case? 

    It is true that Irenaeus mentioned Mary as the second Eve for her obedience, but that is far from saying she was born without sin. No early church father ever said Mary was born without sin. Not one. 

    In conclusion, we can find ample and clear support from scripture and the early fathers for the teachings of the Trinity, baptism and the Eucharist. But is it really that plain and clear for saying Mary was born without sin? The answer is no.
 
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justcatholic:
Catholicholic I go to mass, like every other Catholic, receive the Eucharist, take in the homily and sing hymns like everyone else. It is pretty much the same, week after week. Throw in a few raffle dinners. For myself I center my faith in Christ rather than novenas, Mary prayers, doing this right or that right. I know one thing. I am a sinner and no matter what I do, that won’t save me, but solely my faith in Christ will. If Christ cannot save me, then nothing else matters.Shalom
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Of course, novenas and “Mary prayers”, in themselves, will not save you. They are just bonuses, gifts, that are available to us to use, if we choose, to strenghen our faith in Christ and bring us closer to Him. Every thing we do should lead us closer to Christ.

And the Immaculate Conception would be the first to tell you that.

God bless you!
 
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justcatholic:
javilin

Sure, God could do anything he desires and has. But that is not the question. Did God actually do this in history? Is it so clear and concise that a six year old could read it clearly in scripture and in the fathers and know it? I think not. For why was their differences of opinion among the fathers themselves if the immaculate conception teaching was always believed since the time of the apostles? If it were that clear and basic, there would have been no discussion.

Also, Paul himself would have known about Mary when he spoke of mankind in general.There is** none **righteous, no not oneAlso **all **have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

Let us say for the sake of argument God would have had Mary born without sin, when she came into the world. If this would have been the case, then Paul would have never wrote what he did in Romans. He would have mentioned that Mary was the exception. Also the other New Testament writers would have as well. Why did the apostles fail to mention this about Mary, if that was the case?

It is true that Irenaeus mentioned Mary as the second Eve for her obedience, but that is far from saying she was born without sin. No early church father ever said Mary was born without sin. Not one.

In conclusion, we can find ample and clear support from scripture and the early fathers for the teachings of the Trinity, baptism and the Eucharist. But is it really that plain and clear for saying Mary was born without sin? The answer is no.
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So in otherwords, the scripture of Paul that says “none righteous” could also mean Jesus himself right? No, he is exempt from that and so is Mary. It did not say, "Jesus is exempt."

**I already told you, there is a Liberal Catholic Church. In that Church you can believe in whatever you want. Also, you want Sola Scriptura. Go to a local Episcopal Church, or Lutheran Church. The Catholic Church isn’t for you. You said so yourself. Why are you still in it? You’re not welcome in it with those beliefs. :yawn: It is a waist of time discussing this stuff with you. I give up. :sleep: **
 
It is true that Irenaeus mentioned Mary as the second Eve for her obedience, but that is far from saying she was born without sin. No early church father ever said Mary was born without sin. Not one.
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Eve was born without sin and we believe that the second Eve was born without sin. The difference is that Eve disobeyed God and Mary was obedient to God.
 
Attn JustCatholic:

Cyprian

With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the principal church [at Rome], in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 A.D. 252]).

The Lord says to Peter: “I say to you,” he says, “that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church” . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a single chair [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was , but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 A.D. 251]).
 
RomanArmy
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                Nope, Jesus did not sin because he was God incarnate. God cannot sin. Paul was referring to all mankind born after Adam's fall. Jesus wasn't included because he was both God and man. Mary was born fully human.

                No, I never said the Catholic church is not for me. You said that I said that. I have never heard of the Liberal Catholic Church. There are liberals within the church, but not a separate liberal church apart from the church. I don't know where you are coming from there.
 
Matt 16 18
Yes, Adam and Eve were originally created perfect and were holy. But they both fell into sin and their posterity, which includes all men are sinners as well.
 
E.E.N.S
Do you suppose the apostles and the early fathers believed in the primacy of Peter? Sure they did. But they all had differences of opinion despite Peter being declared as head of the church. Primacy does not mean infallibility of one individual. Only rank of position.
 
Sarah
Mary was born **after** Eve fell into sin and so inherited original sin, as do all of Adam's posterity. It is true that Mary was obedient to God and Eve surely wasn't. But Irenaeus wasn't referring to Mary being born without sin as the reason she obeyed God, but rather she **chose** of her own free will chose to be obedient, just like Eve chose to disobey God of her free will.
 
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justcatholic:
E.E.N.S

Do you suppose the apostles and the early fathers believed in the primacy of Peter? Sure they did. But they all had differences of opinion despite Peter being declared as head of the church. Primacy does not mean infallibility of one individual. Only rank of position.
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The Church Fathers were theologians, of course they had differences of opinions. But even over all of that, they were FAR MORE Catholic than ANY in opposition to Catholicism today. And they were NOT in opposition to Rome. If a doctrine was defined as infalliable then ALL Catholics were required to believe it or they would be considered a heretict. Yet no Church Father is considered that. They did not rebel against Rome as others did then or today. If they had an opinon on Scripture it was presented to the Church as either right, wrong, or still needed time for thinking and praying about it.
 
**This thread is going out of control and becomming a never ending debate. I urge all not to continue to reply to justcatholic on this issue. It’s a waste of time. There is enough evidence of the Immaculate Conception above. He can scroll up. Just pray so that he may be guided to the truth and back into the true flock. **

**There is also the Encyclical that proclaimed the dogma by Pope Pius IX: **
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm
 
Now is there such thing as a person being born for a special purpose?..The Liturgical readings for June 24 say so…4 Now the word of the LORD came to me saying, 5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.” 6 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, I do not know how to speak, for I am only a youth.” 7 But the LORD said to me, “Do not say, ‘I am only a youth’; for to all to whom I send you you shall go, and whatever I command you you shall speak. 8 Be not afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you, says the LORD.” 9 Then the LORD put forth his hand and touched my mouth; and the LORD said to me, “Behold, I have put my words in your mouth. 10 See, I have set you this day over nations and over kingdoms, to pluck up and to break down, to destroy and to overthrow, to build and to plant.” -Jer1

8 Without having seen him you love him; though you do not now see him you believe in him and rejoice with unutterable and exalted joy. 9 As the outcome of your faith you obtain the salvation of your souls. 10 The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation; 11 they inquired what person or time was indicated by the Spirit of Christ within them when predicting the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glory. 12 It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things which have now been announced to you by those who preached the good news to you through the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look. -1pt1
1 Listen to me, O coastlands, and hearken, you peoples from afar. The LORD called me from the womb, from the body of my mother he named my name. 2 He made my mouth like a sharp sword, in the shadow of his hand he hid me; he made me a polished arrow, in his quiver he hid me away. 3 And he said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.” 4 But I said, “I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and vanity; yet surely my right is with the LORD, and my recompense with my God.” 5 And now the LORD says, who formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob back to him, and that Israel might be gathered to him, for I am honored in the eyes of the LORD, and my God has become my strength-- 6 he says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved of Israel; I will give you as a light to the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”-Is49

1 O LORD, thou hast searched me and known me! 2 Thou knowest when I sit down and when I rise up; thou discernest my thoughts from afar. 3 Thou searchest out my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 Even before a word is on my tongue, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou dost beset me behind and before, and layest thy hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend to heaven, thou art there! If I make my bed in Sheol, thou art there! 9 If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, 10 even there thy hand shall lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. 11 If I say, “Let only darkness cover me, and the light about me be night,” 12 even the darkness is not dark to thee, the night is bright as the day; for darkness is as light with thee. 13 For thou didst form my inward parts, thou didst knit me together in my mother’s womb. 14 I praise thee, for thou art fearful and wonderful. Wonderful are thy works! Thou knowest me right well; 15 my frame was not hidden from thee, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth. 16 Thy eyes beheld my unformed substance; in thy book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious to me are thy thoughts, O God! How vast is the sum of them!.. 23 Search me, O God, and know my heart! Try me and know my thoughts! 24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting! -Psalm139
I read these reading that day and said to myself how can Mary NOT have been Immaculately Conceived?
 
Catholic Dude said:
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I read these reading that day and said to myself how can Mary NOT have been Immaculately Conceived?
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Because those verses say nothing about Mary’s EM. They’re about the omniscience of God but teach nothing about Mary’s EM.

Don’t pour a doctrine into verses that neither teach that doctrine or make reference to it. If we were to be consistent with your interpretation, then Jeremiah was immaculately conceived.
 
RyanL said:
1. You’re misquoting scripture. Mary’s name isn’t mentioned in the salutation.
2. You didn’t answer my first question.
3. You are unfamiliar with the Greek. Read the following:
bringyou.to/apologetics/a116.htm
If you want to talk about what forms of “grace” are used in the original languages, I highly encourage you to do so.
4. Could it be that Mary was troubled because the angel just greeted her with a divine title, fit only for the Queen of Heaven?
5. Do *you *refer to her as the Blessed Virgin Mary?

God bless,
RyanL
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Answer to #1: Her name is in the context of the narrative. Are you trying to say Mary was not the person Gabriel was speaking to? Answer to #2: No need. Supplying those names would not support your argument. Answer to #3: I am very familiar with the Greek. Answer to #4: No. Gabriel would never greet her with a “divine title.” That would make him a polytheist - and I am sure he is not since he is a messenger of God. Answer to #5: I usually refer to her as “Mary.” Although I do believe, as the Scriptures state, she was a virgin *until * after she gave birth to Jesus. Then she had normal relations with her husband and bore other children. Scripture gives absolutely no indication that Jesus was not to be born into and raised in a normal Jewish family. And like Scripture states, I do call her “blessed.”

Peace & blessings.
 
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