Mary, the Immaculate Conception etc

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linus:
Answer to #2: No need. Supplying those names would not support your argument.
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Chicken?

😉
RyanL
 
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RyanL:
Chicken?

😉
RyanL
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Nope, like I said, such an exercise doesn’t support your argument. It is not a moniker of Mary. And still, it states absolutely nothing about her being immaculately conceived.

I did read the article you suggested, though. In the end, bottom line, he too must pour into the text the extra-biblical idea of the EC of Mary. The text itself teaches no such concept - I don’t care how much you try to dissect the Greek. “Hail favored one” is the most accurate translation as most Greek scholars agree. Backed up by verse 30 where Gabriel says to her, “you have found favor with God.” All this in the context not of her being immaculately conceived, but being chosen to give birth to Messiah. It’s all so simple.

The initial question of this thread was if there is any Scriptural evidence for the EC of Mary. So far no one has provided even one. What does that tell you?

Peace
 
Here are two PROTESTANT linguistic sources in favor of “Hail, full of Grace.”

1.An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W.E. Vine:
“Charitoo: akin to charis, to endow with charis, primarily signified to make GRACEFUL or GRACIOUS, and came to denote, in Hellenistic Greek, to cause to find favor, Luke 1:28, “highly favored” (margin, “endued with Grace”)…Grace implies more than favor; Grace is a free gift, favor may be deserved or gained.”

2.Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament:
“Highly favored” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with Grace (charis), enriched with Grace as in Ephesians 1:6…The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means ‘full of Grace which thou hast recieved’;wrong, if it means ‘full of Grace which thou hast to bestow.’ "

Seems pretty clear to me. The early Church reconized this as well.And are you really trying to say that Mary EARNED the right for the Holy Spirit to come upon her? I very much do not think so. It was because of God’s Grace.🙂
 
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justcatholic:
If it sounds to unbelievable, then it probably is. 🙂
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Well this sounds unbelieveable…

*****I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If you eat this bread, you will live forever. The bread that I will give you is my flesh, which I give so that the world may live." **his started an angry argument among them. “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” they asked. **Jesus said to them, “I am telling you the truth: if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you will not have life in yourselves. **Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them to life on the last day. **For my flesh is the real food; my blood is the real drink. Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood live in me, and I live in them. The living Father sent me, and because of him I live also. In the same way whoever eats me will live because of me. **This, then, is the bread that came down from heaven; it is not like the bread that your ancestors ate, but then later died. Those who eat this bread will live forever.” *Jesus said this as he taught in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many of his followers heard this and said, "This teaching is too hard. Who can listen to it? (Joh 6:51-60)
 
J.W.B.:
Here are two PROTESTANT linguistic sources in favor of “Hail, full of Grace.”

1.An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, by W.E. Vine:
“Charitoo: akin to charis, to endow with charis, primarily signified to make GRACEFUL or GRACIOUS, and came to denote, in Hellenistic Greek, to cause to find favor, Luke 1:28, **“highly favored” ** (margin, “endued with Grace”)…Grace implies more than favor; Grace is a free gift, favor may be deserved or gained.”
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W.E. Vine is not teaching that either “highly favored” or “endued with Grace” means Mary was immaculately conceived. That whole doctrine is poured INTO the text by Catholic interpreters.
2.Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament:“Highly favored” (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with Grace (charis), enriched with Grace as in Ephesians 1:6…The Vulgate gratiae plena "is right, if it means ‘full of Grace which thou hast recieved’;wrong, if it means ‘full of Grace which thou hast to bestow.’ "
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“Which thou hast received” says nothing about Mary being immaculately conceived. That interpretation is completely foreign to the text, nor is Robertson teaching such a doctrine.
Seems pretty clear to me. The early Church reconized this as well.And are you really trying to say that Mary EARNED the right for the Holy Spirit to come upon her? I very much do not think so. It was because of God’s Grace.🙂
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I don’t think Mary gained the right for the Holy Spirit to come upon her either. But the Holy Spirit coming upon her in this context is about her giving birth to the Messiah, not being immaculately conceived. An outlandish and forced interpretation alien to the context.
 
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linus:
W.E. Vine is not teaching that either “highly favored” or “endued with Grace” means Mary was immaculately conceived. That whole doctrine is poured INTO the text by Catholic interpreters.“Which thou hast received” says nothing about Mary being immaculately conceived. That interpretation is completely foreign to the text, nor is Robertson teaching such a doctrine…
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You’re trying to confuse two points here, aren’t you?
  1. People have been trying to argue that kecharitomene does not mean “Full of Grace.” Vine and other honest protestant scholars confirm with the Catholic and other Churches that id DOES Charis means Grace, everywhere in the New Testament.
  2. Mary’s sinlessness is endorsed by her being entitled “one full of Grace” by the angel. Since If one is full of Grace, there can be no place for sin.
 
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linus:
It is not a moniker of Mary.
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linus,

I did a word search for “Hail” (Gk: http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/g...ifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs167.gif - sorry, couldn’t reduce the font size…) and came up with the following results:

Matthew 26:49
And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
Matthew 27:29
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Mark 15:18
And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
John 19:3
And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

By your logic, “master” and “King of the Jews” are not monikers? Where are you coming up with this stuff?

Let’s add to this a bit. What’s the first thing that angels typically say to humans? “BE NOT AFRAID!” What’s the first thing the angel says to Mary? “HAIL!” Notice any difference?

I still think you’re chicken to not name the people who God renames…😉

May God bless you and keep you,
RyanL
 
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justcatholic:
E.E.N.S

Do you suppose the apostles and the early fathers believed in the primacy of Peter? Sure they did. But they all had differences of opinion despite Peter being declared as head of the church. Primacy does not mean infallibility of one individual. Only rank of position.
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Sure they can have different opinions, but they all held to what Peter (or his successor) said to be true…and they also warned against doing otherwise.
 
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Axion:
You’re trying to confuse two points here, aren’t you?
  1. People have been trying to argue that kecharitomene does not mean “Full of Grace.” Vine and other honest protestant scholars confirm with the Catholic and other Churches that id DOES Charis means Grace, everywhere in the New Testament.
  2. Mary’s sinlessness is endorsed by her being entitled “one full of Grace” by the angel. Since If one is full of Grace, there can be no place for sin.
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I’m not confusing the points at all. Whether one interprets it “full of grace” or “highly favored one,” neither the text nor the context speaks to the immaculate conception of Mary. The idea that the angel’s salutation infers her sinlessness is NOT at all derived from the text but the extra-biblical doctrine being superimposed upon the text by Catholic interpreters. It’s a desperate attempt by Catholicism to try to make the IC of Mary a Biblical, i.e., divinely revealed. But the attempt utterly fails. The ONLY way we could ever know that Mary was immaculately conceived is by Divine revelation, and that’s not happening in Lk. 1:28. If you’re going to believe it, it will have to be on the word of men, not God’s written word. It’s simply not there!
 
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RyanL:
linus,

I did a word search for “Hail” (Gk: http://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/g...ifhttp://www.blueletterbible.org/bg/gs167.gif - sorry, couldn’t reduce the font size…) and came up with the following results:

Matthew 26:49
And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
Matthew 27:29
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
Mark 15:18
And began to salute him, Hail, King of the Jews!
John 19:3
And said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they smote him with their hands.

By your logic, “master” and “King of the Jews” are not monikers? Where are you coming up with this stuff?

Let’s add to this a bit. What’s the first thing that angels typically say to humans? “BE NOT AFRAID!” What’s the first thing the angel says to Mary? “HAIL!” Notice any difference?

I still think you’re chicken to not name the people who God renames…😉

May God bless you and keep you,
RyanL
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Now you’re basing your argument on the word “Hail?” Stop, STOP!!! It’s all too desperate. Can you show me elsewhere in Scripture where “full of grace” means immaculately conceived? What in the context causes anyone to interpret that phrase as “immaculately conceived?” It’s not even about Mary’s conception, but the One she is to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please, let’s get real here!!
 
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linus:
The ONLY way we could ever know that Mary was immaculately conceived is by Divine revelation,
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We know it by Divine revelation!

“Scripture and Tradition together convey the Word of God.”
 
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linus:
Now you’re basing your argument on the word “Hail?” Stop, STOP!!! It’s all too desperate. Can you show me elsewhere in Scripture where “full of grace” means immaculately conceived? What in the context causes anyone to interpret that phrase as “immaculately conceived?” It’s not even about Mary’s conception, but the One she is to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please, let’s get real here!!
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We believe it because the Church says so…and everything the Church teaches is in the Bible either explicitly or implicitly.

A smarter direction for you (or any other anti-Catholic) to take would be to try and disprove the authority of the Church.

Good luck, you’ll need it - though luck will not overpower the Truth which is Christ. 😉

“Roma locuta est, causa finita est!”
 
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linus:
Now you’re basing your argument on the word “Hail?” Stop, STOP!!! It’s all too desperate. Can you show me elsewhere in Scripture where “full of grace” means immaculately conceived? What in the context causes anyone to interpret that phrase as “immaculately conceived?” It’s not even about Mary’s conception, but the One she is to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please, let’s get real here!!
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linus, my brother in Christ,

Let’s look at our discussion so far:

YOU: Where does the thought come from in scripture?

ME: Among other places, Kacharitomene. The angel calls her by this name because it reveals who she is. This is the same thing as when God renames (or calls by title) anyone else in scripture - like Abraham, Israel, Sarah, Peter, Immanuel, etc; and since it happens so infrequently, maybe we should pay attention to what God is saying through His messenger.

YOU: That’s not her moniker.

ME: Every other time the word “hail” is used with anything following it (and not refering to an ice storm), it is followed by a moniker. Kecharitomene is her moniker, and this is what scripture supports.

YOU: You’re changing arguments!

ME: …uh…huh?

As far as “where else in scripture”, that’s going to be hard to do since “kecharitomene” is only used once. Also, the first two chapters of Luke are written in Attic Greek, to harken back to the language used in the Septuagint and the wordings associated with the “overshadowing” of the ark of the OT by the Shekina glory cloud of God. After the first two chapters, Luke switches to Koine Greek, or the language used throughout the NT. But…since you’re familiar with Greek and all…I’m sure you already knew that.

May God bless you and keep you,
RyanL
 
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linus:
W.E. Vine is not teaching that either “highly favored” or “endued with Grace” means Mary was immaculately conceived. That whole doctrine is poured INTO the text by Catholic interpreters.“Which thou hast received” says nothing about Mary being immaculately conceived. That interpretation is completely foreign to the text, nor is Robertson teaching such a doctrine.I don’t think Mary gained the right for the Holy Spirit to come upon her either. But the Holy Spirit coming upon her in this context is about her giving birth to the Messiah, not being immaculately conceived. An outlandish and forced interpretation alien to the context.
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No, I agree Vine is not saying that Mary is Imaculate and was concieved that way, I was saying that they agree with the words “Full of Grace,” instead of “highly favored.” But Catholics see this verse as a proof text to the Imaculate Conception from the Holy Spirit. You disagree but so what, all different denominations disagree and interpret the Bible their own way. But stop saying that this verse can’t be interpretated the Catholic way just because YOU don’t see it that way:)
 
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linus:
Now you’re basing your argument on the word “Hail?” Stop, STOP!!! It’s all too desperate. Can you show me elsewhere in Scripture where “full of grace” means immaculately conceived? What in the context causes anyone to interpret that phrase as “immaculately conceived?” It’s not even about Mary’s conception, but the One she is to conceive through the power of the Holy Spirit.

Please, let’s get real here!!
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OK, I’m getting real. Right here, right now.
**Ineffabilis Deus was promulgated by Pope Bl. Pius IX on December 8, 1854. He gives the reasons for elevating the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary to a dogma of faith. One of the reasons is the Annuciation when the Archangel St. Gabriel calls the Blessed Virgin Mary “full of grace.”
When the Fathers and writers of the Church meditated on the fact that the most Blessed Virgin was, in the name and by order of God himself, proclaimed full of grace[22] by the Angel Gabriel when he announced her most sublime dignity of Mother of God, they thought that this singular and solemn salutation, never heard before, showed that the Mother of God is the seat of all divine graces and is adorned with all gifts of the Holy Spirit. To them Mary is an almost infinite treasury, an inexhaustible abyss of these gifts, to such an extent that she was never subject to the curse and was, together with her Son, the only partaker of perpetual benediction. Hence she was worthy to hear Elizabeth, inspired by the Holy Spirit, exclaim: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.”[23]

**22. Cf. Lk 1:28. **
23. Ibid., 42.

The entire encyclical can be found here:
papalencyclicals.net/Pius09/p9ineff.htm

You may disagree with this interpretation, but don’t make accusations that nobody interprets “full of grace” as immaculately conceived. This interpretation was around 1500 years before your religion was founded.
There are other reasons for elevating this doctrine to a dogma, but one of the important reasons is that it is implicitly stated in Sacred Scripture. The early Church fathers knew this, and, as I previously stated, was accepted teaching for 1500 years. The burden of proof is on you to show why the Church fathers were wrong to interpret this passage in this way. I find it hard to believe they were wrong for 1500 years and then, all of a sudden, men like Calvin and Zwingli somehow got it right.
 
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justcatholic:
Mary was born after Eve fell into sin and so inherited original sin, as do all of Adam’s posterity.
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Short question: why don’t you call yourself “justheretic”?
It would fit much better…
 
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barsapp:
Short question: why don’t you call yourself “justheretic”?
It would fit much better…
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I agree that JustCatholic is a heretic (or these days one might call him a descenter), but we should not resort to name calling…
However, JustCatholic, you are indeed wrong, and you openly deny the teachings of the Catholic Church, so that, brother, puts you in the category of ‘heretic’…so like I said before, if you want to continue to call yourself a Catholic, and remain in the fullness of Truth, then please, for the love of Our Lord, please please study the Faith, and ask the Holy Spirit for guidence…we would love to have someone as intellegent and as passionate as you as an active and courageous member of the Church Militant!
(There’s Truth, and there’s anti-Truth, please don’t fight any longer for the side of the enemy [anti-Truth].)
 
That whole doctrine is poured INTO the text by Catholic interpreters.
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Catholics have done no such thing as “poured INTO”. The Catholic interpreters have taught what was taught by the Church since its inception, even before we had the texts. If anything it was the deformers (and those still following in their footsteps) that did the pouring and emptying to suit their own whimsies and is still being done today proven by the fact of the countless different denominations doing their own interpretation.
 
I have posted this before but will post it again for those who like to pick and choose what they want to believe regarding the teachings of the Catholic Church. See if this applies to anybody here…(emphasis are mine)

There are four levels of Church teaching, each with their own level of assent required of the faithful.

Level 1 Teaching is that which has been Divine Revealed in the Word of God, written or handed down, and that which has been solemnly judged as divinely revealed truths. They are divinely revealed dogmas.

The judgment is made by:
  1. ex cathedra proclamations of the Roman Pontiff
  2. College of Bishops gathered in council
  3. infallibly proposed by the ordinary Magisterium

    **This level of teaching must be believed by all the Faithful with theological faith on the authority of God revealing **(de fide credenda). Anyone who denies these teachings, OR who obstinately doubts these teachings is in heresy and thereby automatically excommunicated.

    Examples of Level 1 teaching     required for belief by all the Faithful include: the divinity of Christ, the articles of faith of the Creed, the various Christological dogmas,** the various Marian dogmas,** the doctrine of the institution of the sacraments by Christ and their efficacy with regard to grace, the doctrine of the real and substantial presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the sacrificial nature of the eucharistic celebration, the foundation of the Church by the will of Christ, the doctrine on the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff, the doctrine on the existence of original sin, the doctrine on the immortality of the spiritual soul, the immediate recompense after death, the absence of error in the inspired sacred texts, the doctrine on the grave immorality of direct and voluntary killing of an innocent human being, the Immaculate Conception, and the Assumption of Mary.

    **Canon 750 **

    All that is contained in the written word of God or in tradition, that is, in the one deposit of faith entrusted to the Church and also proposed as divinely revealed either by the solemn magisterium of the Church or by its ordinary and universal magisterium, must be believed with divine and catholic faith; it is manifested by the common adherence of the Christian faithful under the leadership of the sacred magisterium; therefore, all are bound to avoid any doctrines whatever which are contrary to these truths.

    Canon 751Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.
 
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