Mary/Virginity/Relations

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Faith1960

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I know this has been addressed here before but it’s been bugging me since Christmas. During Christmas Mass, the priest read from the Bible and it said something about [paraphrasing] Joseph not having relations with Mary until they were married. I’m having a difficult time with this because to me, it sounds rather clear that what they mean is that Mary remained a virgin up to Jesus’ birth and then had sexual relations with her husband sometime after. How can we, as Catholics surmise otherwise when Scripture seems pretty clear-cut? :confused:
 
After reading 2nd Samuel, Chapter 6, do you believe that Michal had children after her death?
And so Saul’s daughter Michal was childless to the day of her death.
What you are doing is applying English rules on Hebrew grammar. In the Hebrew text, the word “until” or “til” mean something is true up until a certain point, but it is silent on the time period after that.

What the author of the Gospel is trying to prove is that Jesus’ Birth fulfilled earlier prophecies of Isaiah. Specifically, 7:14.
Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel.
 
Right. You see, the whole point is that here Mary was, betrothed to Joseph. Scripture makes it very clear that Jesus was not the son of Joseph, because Joseph 'had no relations with Mary during her pregnancy. If he had, of course, then one could argue that Jesus ‘could have been’ the son of Joseph.

The important time period was that of the pregnancy and showing that Joseph could not be the father of Jesus.
 
We also have to remember that Matthew and the other Gospel writers were not concerned with telling us all the details of Mary and Joseph’s life. The subject of their writing was Jesus and what pertained to him that they felt they ought to record. Those considered minor characters got only as much attention as the telling about the main character needed to have. This was typical of the kind of biography written at that time. Matthew had nothing to say about the relations between Mary and Joseph except how it impacted Jesus and his divine Sonship.
 
I know this has been addressed here before but it’s been bugging me since Christmas. During Christmas Mass, the priest read from the Bible and it said something about [paraphrasing] Joseph not having relations with Mary until they were married. I’m having a difficult time with this because to me, it sounds rather clear that what they mean is that Mary remained a virgin up to Jesus’ birth and then had sexual relations with her husband sometime after. How can we, as Catholics surmise otherwise when Scripture seems pretty clear-cut? :confused:
How do you arrive that the assumption that Joseph and Mary had relations after the birth of Jesus? The verse (Mt 1:25) you refer to does not say that at all. Is it because of the word “until”? I will assume so, because that has been a long standing protestant arguement against Mary’s perpetual virginity. But the word used for “until” (heos, in Greek) has a different meaning than the modern day use of the word “until”. It strictly means “up until that time” with no implication of what happened after that time. The whole verse is simply attesting to the fact that Mary was a virgin at the time of Jesus’ birth, with no implication about whether or not she remained a virgin. So the verse you refer to is not at all problematic when it comes to the perpetual virginity of Mary.

Here is a nice site that explains this and more issues having to do with Mary’s virginity.
 
Practical, though not necessarily scriptural - once Jesus passed through Mary’s birth canal, do we think Joseph would ever have relations w/ Mary? —KCT
 
How do you arrive that the assumption that Joseph and Mary had relations after the birth of Jesus? The verse (Mt 1:25) you refer to does not say that at all. Is it because of the word “until”?
Yes, because of the word “until.”
 
Matthew duplicates this technique twice more in his Gospel.

11:23
And as for you, Capernaum: ‘Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.’ For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Jesus (the speaker) does not imply that Sodom would have remained til this day and then be destroyed. He is silent on this matter.

28:20
And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.
Does Jesus say he will be with us until the end of the age, and then leave us? No, He is silent on this matter.
 
Dear Faith1960
Please look at my post AND HE KNEW HER NOT UNTIL SHE BORE A SON
and AND2 MARY EVER REMAINED PURE
There is something new in the Nova Vulgata of Pope John Paul
regarding the above cited verse. Wish you contact me.
NCB
 
Dear Faith1960
Please look at my post AND HE KNEW HER NOT UNTIL SHE BORE A SON
and AND2 MARY EVER REMAINED PURE
There is something new in the Nova Vulgata of Pope John Paul
regarding the above cited verse. Wish you contact me.
NCB
Let me first say I absolutely believe in Mary’s perpetual virginity. My question is not about that. Its rather about the translation you give to Matt 1:25 in the Nova Vulgata. I’ve shown the Latin Vulgate translation as well for comparison.

Matthew 1:25

Latin Vulgate:

et non cognoscebat eam donec peperit filium suum primogenitum et vocavit nomen eius Iesum

Nova Vulgata:

et non cognoscebat eam, donec peperit filium, et vocavit nomen eius Iesum.

Could someone who speaks Latin translate these verses from the LV and the NV. I’m curious to know where “and Mary ever remained pure” appears because I can’t see it.
 
Dear Mr. Thistle

Et non cognoscebat eam (pause - The pause was positioned here by John Paul since it’s an independent sentence). This is a true translation of the Greek Kata Matthaion ( There is no difference between Nova Vulgata and Clementine Vulgate - except the NEW PAUSE -

Literally And he not was sexually knowing her. The imperfect tense was modified by many into And he knew her not - a perfect tense.

There is a big difference between the perfect and the imperfect tenses intended by the authors. From Kata Matthaion I could read **Kai ouk(eti) eginosken auten **, and ouk meant NON but OUK was also an abbreviated form of OUKETI (NEVER)
In avoiding the archaic imperfect tense, it’s easier for me to read And2 Mary Ever Remained Pure.

I will have to present more relevant points in a subtopic:
On what basis, Matthew and JohnPaul and all of us to read the above verse cited as Mt1:25 as an independent sentence.

Was I able to modify the imperfect tense of Matthew into the perfect tense?

Was I grammatically correct if I read And he knew her not until she bore The Son ?… I used to do so and believed I was right. I withdrew my assumption because JohnPaul taught me I was grammatically wrong
I am only a beginner in Greek and Latin but placing necessary punctuation marks did really matter and it’s not beyond anyone’s understanding. I follow John Paul. He is correct. Thanks
 
Dear Mr. Thistle

Et non cognoscebat eam (pause - The pause was positioned here by John Paul since it’s an independent sentence). This is a true translation of the Greek Kata Matthaion ( There is no difference between Nova Vulgata and Clementine Vulgate - except the NEW PAUSE -

Literally And he not was sexually knowing her. The imperfect tense was modified by many into And he knew her not - a perfect tense.

There is a big difference between the perfect and the imperfect tenses intended by the authors. From Kata Matthaion I could read **Kai ouk(eti) eginosken auten **, and ouk meant NON but OUK was also an abbreviated form of OUKETI (NEVER)
In avoiding the archaic imperfect tense, it’s easier for me to read And2 Mary Ever Remained Pure.

I will have to present more relevant points in a subtopic:
On what basis, Matthew and JohnPaul and all of us to read the above verse cited as Mt1:25 as an independent sentence.

Was I able to modify the imperfect tense of Matthew into the perfect tense?

Was I grammatically correct if I read And he knew her not until she bore The Son ?… I used to do so and believed I was right. I withdrew my assumption because JohnPaul taught me I was grammatically wrong
I am only a beginner in Greek and Latin but placing necessary punctuation marks did really matter and it’s not beyond anyone’s understanding. I follow John Paul. He is correct. Thanks
Nobody (at least certainly not Catholics) disputes Mary was ever virgin. We anyway must believe that. That is not my issue.
My question is about what the Nova Vulgata actually says in Matthew 1:25.
Does the Nova Vulgata translation actually say “and Mary ever remained pure” or is that just your interpretation?
 
And2 Mary Ever Remained Pure is only my way of reading.

A. READING MATTHEW AND JOHN PAUL
May I repeat here something in order to clarify the issue we are discussing- This is The Word Of The Lord proclaimed by Matthew in the first century and now affirmed and read to us by John Paul II (www.vatican.va)).
**Matthew: egertheis de ho ioseph apo tou hupnou
epoiesen hos prosetaxen auto ho angelos kuriou **
**John Paul II - Nova Vulgata 24A Exsurgens autem Ioseph a somno fecit,
sicut praecepit ei angelus Domini, **

(A rough draft) The Word Of The Lord raised Joseph up from darkness; ( hupnou /somno literally meant being raised up from an evening sleep but figuratively meant being raised out from *darkness *
Joseph has immediately accomplished the following, as instructed him the angel of YHWH THE HOLY SPIRIT:

Fact#1 Joseph, being raised, has performed action1 as stated in this independent clause:
**P5- kai #1 parelaben ten gunaika autou P5,
24B et1 accepit coniugem suam; P4semicolon John Paul pauses here **
and one Mary his wife and The Holy Child in her womb Joseph did receive;
(P5 was a silent mark employed by Matthew- Nova translated them with a new set of punctuation marks- Matthew used 3 KAI so I added KAI1, KAI2 and KAI3 for clarification and read AND1, AND2 and AND3 - 3 independednt senteces written by Matthew)

Fact#2: Joseph’s action2 after being raised up was stated in this independent clause
**P5 -kai #2 ouketi eginosken auten P5, **

25A et non cognoscebat eam, P2-coma John Paul pauses here
**and two Mary ever remained pure; **
You may prefer to use the archaic imperfect tense and literally read it as: **and2 Joseph never was sexually knowing Mary, **- (Dear Gospel Proclaimers- Matthew and John Paul asked you to pause here before proclaiming the Greatest Joyful News to All . Dear God’s Peoples, the following sentence is the most important one: We are saved)

Fact#3: Joseph, being raised, has performed action3 as stated in this independent clause
**P5 heos hou eteken huion P5 –
kai #3 ekalesen to onoma autou IESOUN P5

25B donec peperit filium, et vocavit nomen eius IESUM .
**
and three, at the very time The Divine SON was born of Mary
YHWH+SHUA YeShua God Saves All Human Beings– JESUS His Name Joseph did proclaim.

There are two pauses Matthew positioned in the above verses. I used to uninterruptedly and mistakenly read And2 he knew her not until she delivered the son. I expect you see that the verse AND2 HE WAS NEVER KNOWING HER (–pause) or– And2 She Ever Remained Pure - was originally intended as an independent sentence by Matthew and now restored by John Paul in the Nova Vulgata. (OUK , in fact it was an OU that meant NON but before a vowel it changed into OUK but OUK was also the abbreviated form of OUK(eti) that meant NEVER.
The most important fact conveyed by Matthew to us was The Birth Of The Lord and Proclamation Of His Name based on the IAM Rule (Isaiah-Angel-Matthew) Rule.

B. THE ARCHAIC IMPERFECT TENSE

The Purity of The Blessed Mother was necessary but always secondary to the Coming Of The Lord. It was not the main fact but a fact glorifying YHWH and JESUS. Thanks to John Paul, the true syntax of Matthew restored.
In listening kai paralaben and kai ekalesen, the first Christians living together with Mary, Matthew and the apostles and disciples knew the aorist tense gave them well perfectly accomplished facts based on the clock time relation (yesterday-today-now-tomorrow) and in the grammatical perfective aspect of the mentioned actions: 'facts done’. The imperfect tense however accurately described the grammatical imperfective aspect of the action, too. For ex. John wrote: Because Jesus knew (ginoskein) all men and needed no one to bear witness of the Man; for Jesus himself knew (eginosken imperfect tense) what was in a man. (Jn 2:24-25. I accept KNEW but there is a difference between ginoskein and eginosken (was knowing) and man v. man in John’s declaration) The first Christians however understood the difference provided by the tenses.
In listening to ouk eginosken Joseph was never knowing Mary in the indicative imperfect tense, they understood the clock time relation of ouk eginosken continued and continued so the action *He did not have sex-He did not have sex… was never perfected with time; *the aspect relation of the action was imperfective because it was continuous. Using OUK to negate, it became perfective.
It seemed thus easier for me to read And2 Mary Ever Remained Pure
because She remained Pure in her sould and body- She also remained pure in Joseph’s mind.
 
And2 Mary Ever Remained Pure is only my way of reading.
Let me first say I am very happy you are studying scripture but I’m curious why you are pushing so hard about Mary’s perpetual virginity when all Catholics believe that. There’s no dispute or controversy among Catholics on this matter. Mary remained ever virgin.
 
The issue on The Purity was raised by Faith1960. She was curious because her priest reads to her something too controversial. If you feel offended I am sorry.
To me because almost all people uninterruptedly read AND HE KNEW HER NOT UNTIL SHE BORE HER SON so the issue has been assumed, taught, explained and believed by Catholics that UNTIL meant something else and She Remained Pure Forever but the word UNTIL HEOS HOU still raises some doubts
And because of that people claimed that there was no verse in the Bible affirming Her Purity. Then many based on other verses - as circumstantial evidence to “prove” that Jesus had other brothers and sisters. The controversy has been continued for centuries.
I just want to answer to the doubt and to prove that **Our Blessed Mother’s Purity **WAS A FACT attested by Matthew.
And that I just followed what Isaiah- the angel- Matthew and JohnPaul have read - and Matthew then John Paul to conclude - grammatically- AND TWO HE WAS NEVER KNOWING HER (or AND 2 SHE EVER REMAINED PURE) as an independent sentence.
I hope now we can be 100 percent clear that The Purity Of Mary was affirmed by the Bible.
Thanks.
 
The issue on The Purity was raised by Faith1960. She was curious because her priest reads to her something too controversial. If you feel offended I am sorry.
To me because almost all people uninterruptedly read** AND HE KNEW HER NOT UNTIL SHE BORE HER SON** so the issue has been assumed, taught, explained and believed by Catholics that UNTIL meant something else and She Remained Pure Forever but the word UNTIL HEOS HOU still raises some doubts
And because of that people claimed that there was no verse in the Bible affirming Her Purity. Then many based on other verses - as circumstantial evidence to “prove” that Jesus had other brothers and sisters. The controversy has been continued for centuries.
I just want to answer to the doubt and to prove that **Our Blessed Mother’s Purity **WAS A FACT attested by ****Matthew.
And that I just followed what Isaiah- the angel- Matthew and JohnPaul have read - and Matthew then John Paul to conclude - grammatically- AND TWO HE WAS NEVER KNOWING HER (or AND 2 SHE EVER REMAINED PURE) as an independent sentence.
I hope now we can be 100 percent clear that The Purity Of Mary was affirmed by the Bible.
Thanks.
Don’t worry you have not offended me. I don’t think any Catholic would question Mary being ever virgin.
I think the only doubt has been in the minds of Protestants (but not all of them).
Catholics cannot have doubts about Mary’s perpetual virginity as it is something we have to believe, and I do.
 
Dear Mr. Thistle - I appreciated your understanding and your belief and that of the people who did not think it’s necessary to voice it out.You may be too optimistic to believe that ALL Catholics agreed with you. Same as you did, my late parents were never happy when I talked about this issue. However, it is the fact that many Cathlics didn’t believe so and flatly denied the dogma. They thought that even if Mary was not a virgin, we will be saved anyway by Jesus. Certain number of Catholic theologians even requested the dogma to be re-stated. Most Protestants - as I read - believed in her Purity BEFORE the birth of the Lord- the doubt was focused on the period AFTER the birth.
This thread as it was named Mary/Virginity/Relations was too large - many issues have been discussed so I like to open a subthread: **And he knew her not UNTIL she bore her first child. **. These are some related topics:
**Is it grammatically correct to separately read Mt1:24 apart from Mt1:25?

Is it grammatically correct to read: And he knew her not until she bore her first born son?

Whether or not Matthew conveyed to us Mt1:25 as we now read or we have erroneously read it against Matthew’s true intent and his grammar syntax?**
I invite everyone to join the discussion and to raise more issues.
 
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