"Mary was a EVER-virgin, ya right!"

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I need some help on this one, I am talking to my Fundalmentalist (former Catholic) friend and he is willing to listen regarding Mary’s role in our Church; so I started by emailing him some info (from this site regarding Mary’s virginity]). I have many thoughts on his response, but not of a QUICK effecitve response.

HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND?

Here are the 2 emails:

#1. Mine

This link pertains to Mary’s virginity from last
nights conversation:

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

#2 His response:

First off thanks for this information. there are several problems with it. One is Joseph was going to divorce mary when he found out that she was pregnant. If he did not want to marry her because he was old with kids here is his out it looks as if she has been unfaithful. Joseph taught Jesus his trade (Carpenter) this was a job for the young and strong of the people of Israel. Because when they where old (30 plus ) average life expectancy of 39 in those day the sons had to support the family. If he Joseph was old then one of his son’s from before Jesus would have supported the family when Jesus is 11, 12 etc. the greek, and aramaic, and hebrew all refer to mary as the mother of Jesus mother of god places her in a very high position ( Only one church in chritianity calls her mother of god) high honor is only reserved for Jesus Christ. In John 2.5 she shows her humanity when she beckons Jesus at the wedding and says they have no w ine He responds WOMEN! this is not my time my hour has not yet come!!!. Under the law of Moses which Mary and Joseph followed see Luke 2:21 thru Luke 2:35 it would have been a sin for them not to have sexual relations as married people. Jesus tells married people in the new testament to share our bodies as one flesh and not to deny sex to each other except for Prayer and Fasting. The angel told Joseph to not have sex with her until after Jesus birth Mathew 1:25. Everthing about mary you sent me is about past century conferences that proclaim her propetual virginity, but has no direct scripture verses proving her life time of virginity. If God wanted us to see her as a perfect virginal person it would have been written in scripture. The fact that the Catholic church teaches this and there is no scripture to back up its claim. it reminds me of the curse in revelations DO NOT ADD OR SUBTRACT FROM GODS WORD OR THERE WILL BE A CURSE UPON YO U. In closing Jesus despised the acts fo the religous high priest… They are a brood of Vipers he said. Ask yourself this? every man and women in the bible except Jesus was a fallen human person. Jesus was perefect, holy, without sin how can one say Mary was perfect like Jesus. The Scripture said Mary was made holy by God the father. Abraham was made holy by God the father but he lied did he not ?. No one not one can take the place next to or near Jesus Christ. Amen!!!​

I will “cut and paste” it over to him or give him this link to this thread…Thanks for all your help!

God Bless,
Joe
 
Is your friend able to maintain a cohesive thought for more than one sentence?

Ask him if he’s adding to the Gospel when he says,
The angel told Joseph to not have sex with her until after Jesus birth Mathew 1:25.
Click to expand...
. I don’t see where the angel says, “Wait till after the birth, then you can have sex”.

2nd, ask him if Michal had any children after her death.
 
-One is Joseph was going to divorce mary when he found out that she was pregnant. If he did not want to marry her because he was old with kids here is his out it looks as if she has been unfaithful-
There are other views of why Joseph was going to divorce her. One of them is because he felt he was not worthy to be the husband of the Mother of God.

-Joseph taught Jesus his trade (Carpenter)-
What chapter and verse is this?
  • Only one church in chritianity calls her mother of god-
    That is because there was only one Church at that time that they defined that term, and that Church was the Catholic Church.
-The angel told Joseph to not have sex with her until after Jesus-
The angel did not tell Joseph this, all that passage (Matt 1:25) is saying is that they didn’t have relations prior to the birth of Jesus, it does not mean they had relations after the birth of Jesus.

Luke 1:30-35

Then the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
Behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name him Jesus.
He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High, and the Lord God will give him the throne of David his father,
and he will rule over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”
But Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I have no relations with a man?”
And the angel said to her in reply, "The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God.

What a dumb question from Mary, didn’t her mother tell her the facts of life?
She was betrothed to Joesph, when they get married, they have relations, and have a child. duhhhh…
Or did Mary say this because she had already dedicated herself to be a perpetual virgin… The angel said to her " you will"… not “you have”…
 
Actually it sounds like this person has a lot of preconceived notions about the bible, but might have never taken a bible study course. Good luck in showing him anything Catholic.
He is talking about adding or subtracting from scripture, but in his comments, he is adding. You might ask him why everthing a Christian believes has to be in the bible. Does he believe in the Trinity?
 
Your friend says, “Jesus was perefect, holy, without sin how can one say Mary was perfect like Jesus[sic].”
Lk 1:28 …“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you.”
Jn 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and full of truth;…

These are the only two places in Scripture where a person is described as “full of grace.”
This does not establish Mary’s equality with our Lord, becuse she is not, but it does establish a link of sinlessness.
 
jeckert79 said:
I need some help on this one, I am talking to my Fundalmentalist (former Catholic) friend and he is willing to listen regarding Mary’s role in our Church; so I started by emailing him some info (from this site regarding Mary’s virginity]). I have many thoughts on his response, but not of a QUICK effecitve response.

HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND?

Here are the 2 emails:

#1. Mine

This link pertains to Mary’s virginity from last
nights conversation:

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

#2 His response:

First off thanks for this information. there are several problems with it. One is Joseph was going to divorce mary when he found out that she was pregnant. If he did not want to marry her because he was old with kids here is his out it looks as if she has been unfaithful. Joseph taught Jesus his trade (Carpenter) this was a job for the young and strong of the people of Israel. Because when they where old (30 plus ) average life expectancy of 39 in those day the sons had to support the family. If he Joseph was old then one of his son’s from before Jesus would have supported the family when Jesus is 11, 12 etc. the greek, and aramaic, and hebrew all refer to mary as the mother of Jesus mother of god places her in a very high position ( Only one church in chritianity calls her mother of god) high honor is only reserved for Jesus Christ. In John 2.5 she shows her humanity when she beckons Jesus at the wedding and says they have no w ine He responds WOMEN! this is not my time my hour has not yet come!!!. Under the law of Moses which Mary and Joseph followed see Luke 2:21 thru Luke 2:35 it would have been a sin for them not to have sexual relations as married people. Jesus tells married people in the new testament to share our bodies as one flesh and not to deny sex to each other except for Prayer and Fasting. The angel told Joseph to not have sex with her until after Jesus birth Mathew 1:25. Everthing about mary you sent me is about past century conferences that proclaim her propetual virginity, but has no direct scripture verses proving her life time of virginity. If God wanted us to see her as a perfect virginal person it would have been written in scripture. The fact that the Catholic church teaches this and there is no scripture to back up its claim. it reminds me of the curse in revelations DO NOT ADD OR SUBTRACT FROM GODS WORD OR THERE WILL BE A CURSE UPON YO U. In closing Jesus despised the acts fo the religous high priest… They are a brood of Vipers he said. Ask yourself this? every man and women in the bible except Jesus was a fallen human person. Jesus was perefect, holy, without sin how can one say Mary was perfect like Jesus. The Scripture said Mary was made holy by God the father. Abraham was made holy by God the father but he lied did he not ?. No one not one can take the place next to or near Jesus Christ. Amen!!!​

I will “cut and paste” it over to him or give him this link to this thread…Thanks for all your help!

God Bless,
Joe
Click to expand...
Highlighted area- Until does not necessarily imply a later change of condition. 1 Corinthians 15:25 Christ"must reign until he has put all His enemies under His feet" Does this mean that after he has put all his enemies under his feet, Christ will cease to reign?? NO. Christ will reign forever Luke 1:32-33
"until does not imply a subsequent change of condition: Mathew 28:20, 1 Timothy 4:13, 6:14; Romans 8:22; Phillipians 1:5; Genesis 8:5; 49:10; samuel 20:3, Judith 12:14, 16:23. start with that Biblical Evidence.
 
jeckert79 said:
HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND?

Here are the 2 emails:

#1. Mine

This link pertains to Mary’s virginity from last
nights conversation:

catholic.com/library/Mary_Ever_Virgin.asp

#2 His response:

First off thanks for this information. there are several problems with it. One is Joseph was going to divorce mary when he found out that she was pregnant. If he did not want to marry her because he was old with kids here is his out it looks as if she has been unfaithful. Joseph taught Jesus his trade (Carpenter) this was a job for the young and strong of the people of Israel. Because when they where old (30 plus ) average life expectancy of 39 in those day the sons had to support the family. If he Joseph was old then one of his son’s from before Jesus would have supported the family when Jesus is 11, 12 etc. the greek, and aramaic, and hebrew all refer to mary as the mother of Jesus mother of god places her in a very high position ( Only one church in chritianity calls her mother of god) high honor is only reserved for Jesus Christ. In John 2.5 she shows her humanity when she beckons Jesus at the wedding and says they have no w ine He responds WOMEN! this is not my time my hour has not yet come!!!. Under the law of Moses which Mary and Joseph followed see Luke 2:21 thru Luke 2:35 it would have been a sin for them not to have sexual relations as married people. Jesus tells married people in the new testament to share our bodies as one flesh and not to deny sex to each other except for Prayer and Fasting. The angel told Joseph to not have sex with her until after Jesus birth Mathew 1:25. Everthing about mary you sent me is about past century conferences that proclaim her propetual virginity, but has no direct scripture verses proving her life time of virginity. If God wanted us to see her as a perfect virginal person it would have been written in scripture. The fact that the Catholic church teaches this and there is no scripture to back up its claim. it reminds me of the curse in revelations DO NOT ADD OR SUBTRACT FROM GODS WORD OR THERE WILL BE A CURSE UPON YO U. In closing Jesus despised the acts fo the religous high priest… They are a brood of Vipers he said. Ask yourself this? every man and women in the bible except Jesus was a fallen human person. Jesus was perefect, holy, without sin how can one say Mary was perfect like Jesus. The Scripture said Mary was made holy by God the father. Abraham was made holy by God the father but he lied did he not ?. No one not one can take the place next to or near Jesus Christ. Amen!!!​

I will “cut and paste” it over to him or give him this link to this thread…Thanks for all your help!

God Bless,
Joe
Click to expand...
Hi,

I think I can help you with Mary being the Mother of God. (It’s best to take one thing at a time)

I did a search of one of Fr. Groeschel’s Teachings on audio and he poses the following Questions, and gives the answers:
  • Is Jesus a Divine Person? YES
  • Does Jesus have a Divine Nature? YES
  • Does Jesus have a human nature? YES
  • Is Jesus a human being? YES
  • Is Jesus a Divine Being? YES
  • Is Jesus a human person? NO, He is a human Being and He’s a Divine Person.
Mary gave birth to a Divine Person who takes upon Himself a human body and a human soul.
The above is Christian Theology and no sincere Christian can deny it.
So, since Jesus is a Divine Being, the Second Person of the Most Holy Trinity, He is God.
Based on all this, Mary is the Mother of God.

Ask your friend to disprove the above. He can’t. He may not admit it to you, but he can’t honestly say Mary isn’t the mother of God, if he believes in the basic Christian Theololgy above.

And he also has to reconcile his disbelief that Mary is the Mother of God with John 1:1 “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” Is Scripture wrong? Did God lie?

Again, he can’t. Once you start on this discussion, again, with your friend, do not let him stray off this topic. That’s a distraction that many opponents use when they can’t give you an answer.

Good Luck and God Bless!
 
I just want to warn you before some ever vigilant poster cop hits the mod button on you- I THINK its not allowed to use E mail correspondence here like this-- check the rules and regs and edit if you need to before someone gets slap happy with the mod button.

Its no fun when people do that.
 
NotWorthy said:
Is your friend able to maintain a cohesive thought for more than one sentence?
Click to expand...
You noticed that, too? :nope:
Joe’s friend sounds like an ex-Catholic. I’d have pegged him as one even if Joe didn’t include that information in his OP. The ramblings are a classic sign. :rolleyes:

God Bless!
 
First of all the sect of Judaism practiced by Mary and Joseph commonly observed long periods of abstinence as part of their devotion to God.

My second point is a little more controversial, but my source is Father Brian Malady, who is a well respected Dominican priest sometimes seen on EWTN. He was mentioning in a retreat I attended that one of the translations in the Bible that seems to be impossible is the English translation of the response Joseph gave to the news that Mary was pregnant. First of all, living in such a small village, there was no way he could simply dismiss her quietly. They were already betrothed which meant they were for all intents and purposes married. Everyone already knew this. A better translation shows Joseph being the one to withdraw himself from the situation because he did not feel worthy to be a part of this divine plan. In fact the language in the original text is nearly identical to David’s response in 2Samuel 6:9 when he says “How can the ark of the LORD come to me?”

Taken in that context, Mary’s virginity and Josephs acceptance of that makes much more sense.
 
This thread highlights one of the most frightening and tragic results of Vatican II. When I converted (prior to Vatican II), there were plenty of priests around who had time and willingness to answer questions, AND/OR to conduct catechism classes for people who wanted answers. Now we have so few priests; and so many of our pastors have “turned the store over to the clerks” (lay catechists, various kinds of ministers, deacons, etc.) that answers are as varied as snowflakes. The old story of the six blind men describing an elephant just about describes how The Church is defined these days.
 
Damascus said:
I just want to warn you before some ever vigilant poster cop hits the mod button on you- I THINK its not allowed to use E mail correspondence here like this-- check the rules and regs and edit if you need to before someone gets slap happy with the mod button.

Its no fun when people do that.
Click to expand...
Oh, you’re right. I re-read the rules a couple days ago.
I think Joe needs to get his friend’s permission in order to post the E-mail. And CAF has to be able to verify it.

Your advice to edit the text is a great idea.

God Bless!
 
Anytime I can help, let me know.

(or do the opposite of what I do)😃
 
I have Tim Staple’s tape set called, “All Generations Shall Call Me Blessed” which covers all of the Marian Dogmas in great depth - surprisingly all from the Bible. The perperual Virginity has 7 proofs for it in scripture, I will do my best to paraphrase them all here, I am on the road and don’t have my notes handy so I’ll have to do my best.
  1. Mary is the new “East Gate” See Ez 44:1-2… This is how the “God of Isreal” entered the world in the OT - this Gate was used only for God and God Alone. Typological proof for the MPV.
  2. Isaih 7:14 Virgin Prophecy… 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel. The term virgin here is a TITLE, a permaneny calling. For instance, had it said something like, “Born to a carpenter.” Do you think that Joseph would quit carpentry and take up accounting the day after Jesus was born??? Not likely. (Side note, the term Immanuel means GOD with us, thus, Mary is the Mother of God.)
  3. Mary’s question to the Angel, “How is this to be?” This implies a vow of virginity in marriage. Since she was about to be married, a child would have been a legitimate expectation. I haven’t researched this one all that much and haven’t really drawn a conclusion on it.
  4. Jesus entrusts Mary to John at the foot of the cross. Unthinkable if Mary had other children.
  5. Mary’s “affair”… Mary had another “man’s” baby while engaged to Joseph. I don’t think we really grasp this - if I went away for a year and came back and my wife was 6 months pregnant, I would be more than upset. There is an old testament correlary to this problem. I can’t find the reference, but one of David’s sons tried to usurp his thrown by sleeping with 10 of his wives - David kept them, cared for them, but did not “go unto them” again. Sorry I can’t find the reference. There is also specific language in the vision that Joseph had that confirms this.
  6. Mary is the New Ark of the New Covenant - no one touched the Ark in the OT except the high Priest - penalty was death.
  7. ??? Sorry, can’t remember.
Check here for others…

scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IV
 
One is Joseph was going to divorce mary when he found out that she was pregnant. If he did not want to marry her because he was old with kids here is his out it looks as if she has been unfaithful
Click to expand...
This is a bold assumption to make about the mother of Jesus. And it’s only his opinion.
If he’s going to stand firm in his statement, the burden is on him to back it up with facts. Facts that are credible and that can be verified.
I’d ask him to back it up with Scripture. Chapter and Verse, and I wouldn’t let him move on to another topic until he backs it up.
I think, eventually, he’ll have to concede on this point.

God Bless!
 
From John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society web site. “Two Minute Apologetics”

Apologetics 101 - 12
Q: The Bible clearly says that Jesus had brothers and sisters, but the Catholic Church teaches that Mary was a perpetual virgin…how can you reconcile those seemingly different positions?
Click to expand...
A: Mk 6:3 says, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?” We need to realize a few things here about these “brothers and sisters”:
#1, there was no word for cousin, or for nephew or niece, or for aunt or uncle in ancient Hebrew or Aramaic - the words that the Jews used in all those instances were “brother” or “sister”.
An example of this can be seen in Gen 14:14, where Lot, who was Abraham’s nephew, is called his brother.
Click to expand...
See: Apologetics 101 - 12, for the rest of his answer.

More info. from John’s site, here: Apologetics for the Masses: Issue #1.

Wow, I was lucky. I found it in the first issue. I thought I was going to have scan at least 20 issues before I found the one about Mary. 😉

God Bless!
 
Actually there would be one good reason for Joseph to be afraid of taking Mary into his home if she is pregnant by another man, that has little or nothing to do with whether he wants her to bear his own children.

The other man could come to claim Mary as his wife and marry her. If Joseph has already claimed her as his wife and adopted her child as his own, things could get very ugly when the other man shows up.

That would also be a good reason to divorce her - so that she could marry the father of her child.
 
(Lk 1:43) “And how does this happen to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”

who is going against clear scripture?
 
I do not think you are going to have much luck no matter what you do because the person seems to know it all and can’t stand to be wrong. I wouldn’t start with Mary any way I would start with AUTHORITY and then work up to other issues. Once the authority issue is settled everything else falls into line.
 
MOzarker said:
This thread highlights one of the most frightening and tragic results of Vatican II. When I converted (prior to Vatican II), there were plenty of priests around who had time and willingness to answer questions, AND/OR to conduct catechism classes for people who wanted answers. Now we have so few priests; and so many of our pastors have “turned the store over to the clerks” (lay catechists, various kinds of ministers, deacons, etc.) that answers are as varied as snowflakes. The old story of the six blind men describing an elephant just about describes how The Church is defined these days.
Click to expand...
Sadly, I must agree. My wife was a cradle Catholic who found that she could not receive cogent answers from her parish priest, so she is now a ‘non-denominational’ Christian who loves Jesus very much. We don’t talk about His Mother at all, she who has given me many blessings.
 
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