Mary was just a vessel

[Luke65]

Where is the dignity in being deprived of our free will and thus stripped of our glory and honour, being created in the image of God?

PAX :harp:

Excellent point, brother, like all the points you’ve made here. But somehow I don’t remember hearing that argument made in debating free will, although I think I must have. I am certain I’ve never used that argument, but you can bet I will from now on! Grazi, Good Fella!

 

[Dokimas]

Yes, it is infinitely better to believe what “the pillar and foundation of the truth” tells us, then to lean on our own understanding.

It is up to each one of us to make sure we know which is the real pillar and foundation of truth.

 

[Dokimas]

My My! Such sarcasm! Perhaps hypocritical as well, since noting that something is someone’s opinion is something you have done repeatedly. It’s OK for you to say that to others but not OK for the same designation to be given to you?

Contrary to what you have stated, what I have previously stated is not opinions backed by the Church’s understanding of things, it is, instead, all derived from the teachings of Jesus Christ, handed down to the Apostles, and continuing in one unbroken line until today. That’s not “opinion”, that’s “truth”. Unless, of course you’re going to say that what Jesus taught was error. I trust you don’t believe that.

Further, Jesus promised, and that promise has been kept, that the Church would be guided by the Holy Spirit forever. And it has been. There’s a big difference between truth received from Jesus Christ and “opinion”.

Yes sarcastic. Just the way I chose to respond to your less than kind way of speaking. You said something a judge would say in a court room.​

I have made it known that what I believe is my opinion. My hope is that it’s God’s truth as well. In fact, if memory treats me well, some of your fellows have told me that I don’t need to have my own opinion, just return to the church. Of course, that was their opinion.​

 

[Luke65]

It is up to each one of us to make sure we know which is the real pillar and foundation of truth.

Right, and for that very reason I have designed a dart board with 40,000 numbers on it. I call it “Russian Darts”. Would you like to play? Or would you prefer to trust that God knows what He is doing and keeps all His promises? “…and the Gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church that He built on Peter the Rock, whose successor you see right there in Rome, where St. Peter died a glorious martyr’s death. Come home, my brother, we’re in a war here! And we need all hands on deck.

 

[Dokimas]

Right, and for that very reason I have designed a dart board with 40,000 numbers on it. I call it “Russian Darts”. Would you like to play? Or would you prefer to trust that God knows what He is doing and keeps all His promises? “…and the Gates of Hell will not prevail” against the Church that He built on Peter the Rock, whose successor you see right there in Rome, where St. Peter died a glorious martyr’s death. Come home, my brother, we’re in a war here! And we need all hands on deck.

No thank you.​

I wonder if Melanie likes your sarcasm (or humor). I think it’s great.

 

[Luke65]

No thank you.​

I wonder if Melanie likes your sarcasm (or humor). I think it’s great.

Okay. But you do stand side by side with us against the moral decay that is destroying our society? I hope so. God bless.

P.S. Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed it!

 

[MelanieAnne]

No thank you.​

I wonder if Melanie likes your sarcasm (or humor). I think it’s great.

Since you’re not interested in anything I have to say, be consistent and leave me out of your exchanges with other posters.

 

[Dokimas]

Okay. But you do stand side by side with us against the moral decay that is destroying our society? I hope so. God bless.

P.S. Thanks, I’m glad you enjoyed it!

I’d love to stand with you. I must warn you that my legs wobble a little at times.​

PS I think I’ve offended Melanie. Could you tell her I’m sorry.

 

[DavidMark]

It would be more accurate to say Christ was the incarnation of every divine virtue, not the incarnation of the Unknowable Essence.
Picture the reflection of the sun in a mirror. This is a much better way for me to understand Jesus. It is the sun, yet it is not. It is reliant on the sun’s rays for it to exist.
That is the Christ among us, the first Servant, Lord and Master of the rest, but still subserviant to God. The sun is independent of its’ reflection.

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…

Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

Now this Image has re-appeared again in the world:
Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified. …
Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you? He Whom the world hath wronged hath, at no time, associated with you, hath never studied your writings, nor participated in any of your disputations.
The garb He weareth, His flowing locks, His headdress, attest the truth of His words…
Witness the habitation in which He, Who is the incarnation of justice, hath been forced to dwell.
Open your eyes, and, beholding His plight, meditate diligently upon that which your hands have wrought, that haply ye may not be deprived of the light of His Divine utterance, nor remain bereft of your share of the ocean of His knowledge.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 98)

 

[Benadam]

Our bodies make visible the state of our soul. This is demonstrated at the fall of man. Adam and Eve covered their loins because their bodies revealed the rebellious state of their souls. As do every one of ours today. Our souls proclaim death so our bodies make death visible. I doubt many if any one of Adam’s generation ever said:

Luke 1
46 And Mary said: My soul doth magnify the Lord.

---

She said this not because of some need for her to tell someone but because the Holy Spirit wanted it known. Because a soul that magnifies God animates a body that can Incarnate God.

That is a vessel of (name removed by moderator)recedented Holiness because as Jesus taught; you can know a tree by it’s fruit

 

[Good_Fella]

It would be more accurate to say Christ was the incarnation of every divine virtue, not the incarnation of the Unknowable Essence.
Picture the reflection of the sun in a mirror. This is a much better way for me to understand Jesus. It is the sun, yet it is not. It is reliant on the sun’s rays for it to exist.
That is the Christ among us, the first Servant, Lord and Master of the rest, but still subserviant to God. The sun is independent of its’ reflection.

Hebrews 1:1-3 KJV God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom He hath appointed Heir of all things, by Whom also He made the worlds; Who being the brightness of His glory, and the express Image of His Person…

Colossians 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of every creature…

Now this Image has re-appeared again in the world:
Lay not aside the fear of God, O ye the learned of the world, and judge fairly the Cause of this unlettered One to Whom all the Books of God, the Protector, the Self-Subsisting, have testified. …
Will not the dread of Divine displeasure, the fear of Him Who hath no peer or equal, arouse you? He Whom the world hath wronged hath, at no time, associated with you, hath never studied your writings, nor participated in any of your disputations.
The garb He weareth, His flowing locks, His headdress, attest the truth of His words…
Witness the habitation in which He, Who is the incarnation of justice, hath been forced to dwell.
Open your eyes, and, beholding His plight, meditate diligently upon that which your hands have wrought, that haply ye may not be deprived of the light of His Divine utterance, nor remain bereft of your share of the ocean of His knowledge.(Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 98)

“I am the light of the world. He who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
John 8, 12

PAX :harp:

 

[DavidMark]

3:31 There came then his brethren and his mother, and, standing without, sent unto him, calling him.
3:32 And the multitude sat about him, and they said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren without seek for thee. 3:33 And he answered them, saying, *Who is my mother, or my brethren? *3:34 And he looked round about on them which sat about him, and said, *Behold my mother and my brethren! *3:35 *For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. *(Mark KJV)

**“Christ said that His mother Mary was not of His Relationship, also that those were His brothers and sisters who were in the Kingdom of God.” **(Attributed to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Ten Days in the Light of ‘Akká, p.47)
[Christ is teaching the ‘church is the Body’. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá is referencing the passage from Mark 3.]

 

[Benadam]

**“Christ said that His mother Mary was not of His Relationship, also that those were His brothers and sisters who were in the Kingdom of God.” **(Attributed to ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, Ten Days in the Light of ‘Akká, p.47)
[Christ is teaching the ‘church is the Body’. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá is referencing the passage from Mark 3.]

You are making a common error . Be carefull how you hear. He said that those around Him are His mother and brothers and sisters. Read it again without bias. You hear Jesus saying that His mother doesn’t obey His teaching. But these are His words.
*

*Who is my mother, or my brethren? *

*Behold my mother and my brethren! *3:35 *For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother. *(Mark KJV)

*This isn’t a statement ov exclusion but inclusion

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I couldnt believe it when I heard this tonight!!! Mary was only a vessel for the Lord, because God put him in there.
How can one not see the Jesus is God, which means Mary is the Mother of the Lord?
I guess I’m just looking for more understanding on how Mary just doesnt seem important to some.

She is the new Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen Mother- all scriptually based.

To call her a vessel is even more Scriptural - & in no way uncomplimentary.​

See:

• Acts 9.15
• Romans 9.14 ff.
• Jeremiah 18 (which is one of the sources for Romans 9.14 ff.)
• 1 Timothy 2:15
• 2 Timothy 2:20 f.

among other places. Biblical doctrines should ISTM be expressed in Biblical thoughts & Biblical words with Biblical emphases & Biblical associations. The three ideas mentioned don’t quite qualify, for various reasons. We should be very wary of going beyond the revealed Word of God, lest we come to grief on the shoals of our own ingenuity. After all, we have only the one Holy Bible

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

If that’s the case, then there was nothing sacred about the overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit. Their union was just as vicious as copulation is in the animal kingdom.

“And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?”
Luke 1, 43

“There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord.”
St. Ignatius of Antioch (c.A.D. 110)

PAX :heaven:

Copulation of animal is union of like with like - The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, but is not like her: the relation there is more like that between grace and the human person than like copulation between human persons. And even that is a wholly inadequate analogy. What we have here is not in any way like copulation - and the Spirit of God is not the spouse of Mary. Only St.Joseph is.​

If the Spirit is the Spouse of Mary, He must be the Spouse of David, who was also spirit-filled. And the Spouse of millions of others of humans. The Holy Spirit can be acquitted of promiscuous gay sex - but such an idea follows, if the work of the Holy Spirit through Mary is called marriage. And the Mormons would be right, other than in their choice of Divine Person. The Holy Spirit =/= the Spouse of Mary - the idea is not only repellent, but completely uncalled-for anyway.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Sure, Mary was a Vessel, but not JUST a vessel. If you look in the OT, we find the ARK of the covenant, so was it JUST an ARK? if it was just an ARK, why did Uzzah die just for touching it, and why did he touch it? inorder to prevent it from falling, so why did he die?

In itself it was just wood, yes. It was dignified by being chosen as the throne of God, who was “enthroned between the cherubim”. That alone is what makes it of any significance; for God is the sole Author of value, goodness, & so on. And we are worth just as much as God is pleased to value us, and no more The alternative is to say that God responds to values which exists independently of Him. ​

1 Chronicles 13:9-10 in NIV says, When they came to the threshing floor of Kidon, Uzzah reached out his hand to steady the ark, because the oxen stumbled. The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah, and he struck him down because he had put his hand on the ark. So he died.

What was in the Ark? The written word of God,

Various other things, such as the pot of manna, and the rod of Aaron that budded.​

and what was in Mother Mary? the Real Word of God. So if someone says that Mother Mary was just a vessel, then imagine the plight of them when God looks them with anger.

May God Bless them.

The Ark is not Mary - but Christ, “in Whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily”, as Paul says. Mary is more like an Ark-bearer; a sort of female Levite - which is appropriate, given Luke’s interest in the Temple, and the context of Luke 1.40 ff.​

 

[StrawberryJam]

Gottle of Geer,

Can I ask you on what basis, or what parts of the christian bible do you hold as certain truth?

 

[Good_Fella]

Copulation of animal is union of like with like - The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary, but is not like her: the relation there is more like that between grace and the human person than like copulation between human persons. And even that is a wholly inadequate analogy. What we have here is not in any way like copulation - and the Spirit of God is not the spouse of Mary. Only St.Joseph is.​

The maternity which befits a creature endowed with reason is not the biological and physiological maternity which is found in the animal kingdom, but something which by its very nature calls for the free consent given to an act governed by the will and is subject to the laws of God which govern the marital state. Anything short of this is animalistic in principle. It is irrelevant whether the the union between the Holy Spirit and Mary was supernatural. The point is God did not force himself upon Mary. He would never dismiss the same moral laws he has impressed upon our minds by the light of the Holy Spirit. Moreover, Mary’s consent had to be more than rational and free. It had to be supernatural and meritorious. God intended that the Incarnation should not happen without Mary’s fiat. Salvation isn’t something super-imposed on the human race. Our Blessed Mother acted in faith working through love on our behalf. It’s time you appreciate her contribution in the divine order of redemption and honour her for her saving faith. The first community of Christians (Catholics) did.

“Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
*Luke 1, 45 *

If the Spirit is the Spouse of Mary, He must be the Spouse of David, who was also spirit-filled. And the Spouse of millions of others of humans. The Holy Spirit can be acquitted of promiscuous gay sex - but such an idea follows, if the work of the Holy Spirit through Mary is called marriage. And the Mormons would be right, other than in their choice of Divine Person. The Holy Spirit =/= the Spouse of Mary - the idea is not only repellent, but completely uncalled-for anyway.

Neither David nor any other human being filled with the Spirit conceived and bore the Son of God by the power of the Holy Spirit. The term “overshadow” is a Hebraic euphemism pertaining to the married state.

PAX :harp:

 

[Good_Fella]

To call her a vessel is even more Scriptural - & in no way uncomplimentary.​

See:

• Acts 9.15
• Romans 9.14 ff.
• Jeremiah 18 (which is one of the sources for Romans 9.14 ff.)
• 1 Timothy 2:15
• 2 Timothy 2:20 f.

The question isn’t whether Mary was a vessel, but whether she was only a vessel. To regard her as only a vessel is a contravention of the Scriptures.

Matthew 2, 10-11; Luke 1, 43…

As the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary was a type of sacred vessel.

PAX :dancing:

 

[mangy_dog]

I couldnt believe it when I heard this tonight!!! Mary was only a vessel for the Lord, because God put him in there.
How can one not see the Jesus is God, which means Mary is the Mother of the Lord?
I guess I’m just looking for more understanding on how Mary just doesnt seem important to some.

She is the new Eve, The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Queen Mother- all scriptually based.

Calm down my dear sister,

Take a step back…breath deeply and peacefully and don’t let anyone take that peace away from you.

Yes, Mary was a vessel and - only Mary could’ve been the only worthy vessel in all of human history.

No other woman could’ve been this vessel - not before, not during and not in the future could there have been another vessel as perfect as Mary.

Vessel; Tabernacle - the meeting place of God with his people…Mary.