Mary WAS sinless

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1: Scripture teaches us that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
So by your defintion of unholy, that would mean that God (if you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, that is) inhabits an “unholy” place.

2: I have not bad-mouthed Mary, nor do I know of any protestants who have done so.
What I, and we, are saying is that she was just another person like you or I. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no Scriptural basis for any other view.
Calling the Mother of God, whom He knew and chose from before the world was created to be the Mother of His son, from among all women (and He could’ve chose any) a mere ‘incubation chamber’ is doing a heck of a lot more than bad-mouthing her.

You wouldn’t dare be so disrespectful to your own mother as to call her a mere ‘incubation chamber’ would you? I would clip the ear of any child of mine or anyone else’s who dared call me such a horrible thing :mad:
 
1: Scripture teaches us that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
So by your defintion of unholy, that would mean that God (if you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, that is) inhabits an “unholy” place.

2: I have not bad-mouthed Mary, nor do I know of any protestants who have done so.
What I, and we, are saying is that she was just another person like you or I. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no Scriptural basis for any other view.
  1. I wasn’t claiming Mary to be unholy, those who assert her sinfulness do that. Hence, in so doing, such persons are asserting that God inhabited a sinful place while in Mary’s womb.
  2. There is scriptural basis for Mary’s sinlessness, citations have been made within this very thread. That you do not accept those citations as valid evidence does not mean “there is no scriptural basis”. To continue to claim so is to substitute your own opinion and call it a fact. It is not.
Further, I submit to you that, assuming Mary was sinless, this continuous harping on her sinfulness would be offensive to God. But that’s just my opinion, based on common sense.
 
Is Mary only blessed if she was sinless?

Your signature is wow, I am at a loss for words. You do all things for mary and in mary… I do not know what to say. You should do all things for the Lord. At least that is what the bible says.

1 Corinthians 10:31 NKJV
Therefore, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.

No where does it mention Mary! In fact St. Paul never mentions Mary the mother of Jesus when instructing the early church. He tells them to do it for the Lord. You can say well, if I do it for Mary, then I am doing it for the Lord. Where is the scriptural basis for that though?

Catholicism makes a claim that Mary was sinless. Okay, show me the scriptural background for this comment. Where is the evidence. The best I have heard on this forum is one of two things.

Argument #1 goes something like this:
It is obvious she was sinless. She birthed the Son of the Living God. She is to be called Blessed. God chose her, so it is obvious that she is sinless.

Which offers no actual proof, just makes a ridiculous tautological claim. Why did God choose Mary to birth his Son, because she was sinless. Why is Mary sinless, because she birthed the sinless Son of God, Jesus.

Argument #2 is even worse logic:
Well there is nothing in the bible that says she sinned.

The problem with this is that Catholicism is making a claim that is contrary to scripture (Romans 3:23, Isaiah 64:6). When you make a claim or an argument you need fact to back it up. Simply saying that the bible did not record Mary sinning does not mean that she did not sin, nor can it be used to back up an argument.
With that logic you can make a lot of ridiculous claims. For example, with that logic you could make the utterly ridiculous claim that Jesus got married and had kids. Because it is not recorded in the bible, one cannot be too sure that that did not happen… See the utter ridiculousness of this argument?

Please answer me why does Mary have to be sinless in order to be blessed? The bible records only one person has no sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Why oh why is it so important that Mary was sinless???
 
I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
Code:
  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?
So sense it says **all **I assume you believe that all baptized babies (young children), and the mentally retarded fall into this category, sense it says they must have and are sinning right now. And sense it says all that would mean that Christ sinned also for Christ was Man as well.

We know that that is not the case.

You seem to take the literal sense of the scriptures, and forgo the true mystical sense.
 
Is Mary only blessed if she was sinless?

Your signature is wow, I am at a loss for words. You do all things for mary and in mary… I do not know what to say. You should do all things for the Lord. At least that is what the bible says.
There’s no contradiction between the two. The miracle of Cana was no less a miracle performed by Christ because it was performed at Mary’s instigation, neither does doing things for Mary and in Mary (who is the handmaid of the Lord after all) make them any less ALSO done for Christ and in Christ.
Where is the scriptural basis for that though?
‘And it happened that when Elizabeth heard the greeting OF MARY (not Jesus although He was in her womb) … Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit … and said ‘Blessed are you (Mary) among women AND blessed is the fruit of your womb (no false dichotomy between mother and child here - both blessed together!) … For indeed, as soon as the voice of YOUR (Mary’s, not Jesus’) greeting sounded in my ears, the babe in my womb leapt for joy’ … And Mary said ‘MY soul magnifies the LORD’ (you know what magnify means? Think magnifying glass - she (her soul) shows Him forth more clearly to the world).

You’re really making a false dichotomy between Mother and Son when in reality she is always pointing the way to Him as she did in Cana - ‘do whatever He tells You’.
Which offers no actual proof, just makes a ridiculous tautological claim. Why did God choose Mary to birth his Son, because she was sinless. Why is Mary sinless, because she birthed the sinless Son of God, Jesus.
You don’t get it - God didn’t CHOOSE Mary, He created her, from the toenails up. From all eternity He knew she was to be His mother. You think He’d be haphazard in creating this woman who was to bring God incarnate into the world and raise Him for 30 years? Course not!

Look at when He ordered the construction of His Temple in Jerusalem and His Ark of the Covenant. He ordered that they be made of the finest possible materials, because nothing less than the best was fitting for God’s dwelling and throne.

So He would never create as His mother, whose body was every bit as much His dwelling and throne, a woman who was less than the finest of her kind. Meaning totally sinless, as Eve was before the Fall.
Why oh why is it so important that Mary was sinless???
Because JESUS TOOK HIS HUMANITY ENTIRELY FROM HER. Not like He had a human father after all, and He got His divinity but not His humanity from the heavenly Father. You can’t make gold out of mud, neither was it fitting that the perfect sinless humanity of Jesus come from anything less than the sinless perfect humanity of Mary.
 
  1. I wasn’t claiming Mary to be unholy, those who assert her sinfulness do that. Hence, in so doing, such persons are asserting that God inhabited a sinful place while in Mary’s womb.
  2. There is scriptural basis for Mary’s sinlessness, citations have been made within this very thread. That you do not accept those citations as valid evidence does not mean “there is no scriptural basis”. To continue to claim so is to substitute your own opinion and call it a fact. It is not.
Further, I submit to you that, assuming Mary was sinless, this continuous harping on her sinfulness would be offensive to God. But that’s just my opinion, based on common sense.
God inhabits sinful people all the time. It is called the holy spirit dwelling inside of us!

Where is the scriptural basis for Mary’s sinlessness? The real problem is that a 100% objective person would not conclude from the scriptures alone Mary was sinless. It is only through the traditions of the church that people believe her to be sinless.

Furthermore I think God may take offense to anyone asserting that someone else besides his son is capable of being sinless. That would defeat the whole reason for his Son coming to Earth and dying on the cross in the first place. But that is just my opinion, based on my experience.
 
Where is the scriptural basis for Mary’s sinlessness? The real problem is that a 100% objective person would not conclude from the scriptures alone Mary was sinless. It is only through the traditions of the church that people believe her to be sinless.
The citations you are asking for have already been quoted within this thread. That you may not accept them does not mean they do not exist. This continuous request which is then dismissed becomes tedious after a while.

To assert that an “objective person would not conclude from the scriptures alone Mary was sinless” demeans all who believe otherwise. That is uncharitable and has no place in this forum
 
God inhabits sinful people all the time. It is called the holy spirit dwelling inside of us!
God didn’t take His human form (His perfect sinless human form) from you or me though, unlike Mary. So of course we can be a little sinful (although we could always sin against the Holy Spirit and lose Him again as well) and it not matter. She, on the other hand …
Furthermore I think God may take offense to anyone asserting that someone else besides his son is capable of being sinless. That would defeat the whole reason for his Son coming to Earth and dying on the cross in the first place. But that is just my opinion, based on my experience.
We are all called to be sinless, to ‘be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect’ in fact. And Jesus never commands the impossible, just the difficult 🙂

Surely God doesn’t mind the idea of humans being sinless at all, it is His own command that we become so!
 
On being holy:

God knows it is not possible for us to be sinless. Because if it was, he wouldn’t have sent his only son to die for us! The whole reason he sent Jesus was that we were slaves to sin! If St. Paul, the zealous pharisee was having a sin nature (Romans 7), do you really think other people stand a chance?

Your whole argument flows not from scripture, but from the idea that God would not put his Son in a sinless human being. From scripture show that she is sinless…

Do you think Mary not being sinless damages Jesus’s credibility in any way?
 
He knows it is not possible for us to be sinless. Because if it was, he wouldn’t have sent his only son to die for us!
He knows we WILL sin, yes, but that’s because we’re weak and lacking in His grace, not because it is impossible not to sin. It is entirely possible, with His help, to never sin, that is what He wants for us, and that is what Mary shows us by her example.

If it were literally impossible for us to do otherwise than sin, then what we DO wouldn’t be sin at all, since it’d be inevitable and beyond our control!
 
The citations you are asking for have already been quoted within this thread. That you may not accept them does not mean they do not exist. This continuous request which is then dismissed becomes tedious after a while.

To assert that an “objective person would not conclude from the scriptures alone Mary was sinless” demeans all who believe otherwise. That is uncharitable and has no place in this forum
What scripture says she is sinless. You can quote the scripture that she is blessed till you are blue in the face, however there is no scripture that says MARY WAS SINLESS. There is scripture to proove that only one person was sinless. I can proove that to you with scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What SCRIPTURE says Mary was sinless? Without the traditions of the church, the most one can do is infer that she is sinless because she bore Jesus.

Humor me and repost the scripture please, apparently I missed it. Even scrolling through all of the posts on this thread I still cannot find it. So please repost it.
 
What scripture says she is sinless. You can quote the scripture that she is blessed till you are blue in the face, however there is no scripture that says MARY WAS SINLESS. There is scripture to proove that only one person was sinless. I can proove that to you with scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

What SCRIPTURE says Mary was sinless? Without the traditions of the church, the most one can do is infer that she is sinless because she bore Jesus.

Humor me and repost the scripture please, apparently I missed it. Even scrolling through all of the posts on this thread I still cannot find it. So please repost it.
I didn’t post it. I didn’t say I did. Others have posted citations and some have made lengthy explanations. There’s no need for me to repeat what they have already done, and done well.

We can only provide the information, we can’t make someone hear that isn’t listening. The information has been provided to you within this thread. You have rejected it, or at least found it inadequate.

What else is there to say? As I previously said, the endless repetition is tedious. For some reason, you need to believe that the Mother of God was a sinful woman. That’s your prerogative. Allow Catholics the same freedom of thought without the pejoratives and we’ll go our own separate ways, OK?
 
Ok, first off, you make an exception for Jesus. Why shouldn’t there be one for his mother? Do you believe that Jesus was not righteous? I think you do, so if those scriptures don’t count for Jesus, they also may not count for his mother. Oh, and the Jewish idiom for “all” at the time didn’t mean necessarily everyone, it meant ‘lots of people.’ And Mary’s righteousness matters because you cannot fully understand her greatness if you don’t realize she was sinless.
1: Why shouldn’t there be an exception for Mary?
The proper question is: Why SHOULD there? That claim has NO scriptural support. Whatsoever.

2: The “The Jewish idiom “all” didn’t mean that”.
I do not have sufficient knowledge of Aramaic language to take up this discussion (and somehow I doubt that you do), but I do have a working knowledge of koiné-greek, and the word “παντες” means ALL - without exception.

3: Mary’s “greatness” was like every other believer’s. She was, and I stress WAS, because she’s been dead for 2000 years, a servant of the Lord like you or I. Nothing more, and nothing less.
And she was most definately a sinner. Either that, or Paul was a liar. Take your pick.
 
He knows we WILL sin, yes, but that’s because we’re weak and lacking in His grace, not because it is impossible not to sin. It is entirely possible, with His help, to never sin, that is what He wants for us, and that is what Mary shows us by her example.

If it were literally impossible for us to do otherwise than sin, then what we DO wouldn’t be sin at all, since it’d be inevitable and beyond our control!
Erm…I would like to see where in Scripture you get this theology?

How is the sentiment “The work of Jesus is not enough…I need to save myself through various good deeds” not a belittlement (is that a word?) of God’s gift of mercy? Then YOU can take the glory for your salvation - God only helped a little.
That is blasphemy if anything is.
 
Calling the Mother of God, whom He knew and chose from before the world was created to be the Mother of His son, from among all women (and He could’ve chose any) a mere ‘incubation chamber’ is doing a heck of a lot more than bad-mouthing her.

You wouldn’t dare be so disrespectful to your own mother as to call her a mere ‘incubation chamber’ would you? I would clip the ear of any child of mine or anyone else’s who dared call me such a horrible thing :mad:
That is your interpretation. I love my mother dearly, no question about that! I never said that Jesus did not love Mary! Please show me WHERE I said anything of that nature!

But the fact that her womb was chosen as an incubation chamber (because that IS what happened) does not elevate her beyond the status of any other mortals, and it CERTAINLY does not justify praying to her.

So I say again: Please provide Scriptural support for this claim.
 
Romans 3:23
ah the petty “all” argument.

3 greek words are used to render the english “all”

pas, holos, and hapas

Honest Greek Scholars and lexicons will point out that pas(which was used here in Romans, rarely means each and every item or person

holos: the same applies

now hapas actually means “all without exception” and it is used in scripture very sparingly.

from: studylight.org/lex/grk/view.cgi?number=3956
… “the whole world has gone after him” Did all the world go afterChrist? "then went all Judea, and were baptized of him in Jordan.“Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem, baptized in Jordan? “Ye are of God,little children”, and the whole world lieth in the wicked one”. Doesthe whole world there mean everybody? The words “world” and “all” are used in some seven or eight senses in Scripture, and it is veryrarely the “all” means all persons, taken individually. The words aregenerally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts-- some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has notrestricted His redemption to either Jew or Gentile …
 
  1. I wasn’t claiming Mary to be unholy, those who assert her sinfulness do that. Hence, in so doing, such persons are asserting that God inhabited a sinful place while in Mary’s womb.
  2. There is scriptural basis for Mary’s sinlessness, citations have been made within this very thread. That you do not accept those citations as valid evidence does not mean “there is no scriptural basis”. To continue to claim so is to substitute your own opinion and call it a fact. It is not.
Further, I submit to you that, assuming Mary was sinless, this continuous harping on her sinfulness would be offensive to God. But that’s just my opinion, based on common sense.
1: You define “unholy” as “not free of sin”. That definition is actually quite correct.
BUT
You said in the post that I replied to that you find it ironic “that anyone would believe that God would inhabit an unholy place.” - no doubt referring to those who say that Mary was NOT sinless?

I then said that, using your definitions, God IS TODAY inhabiting “unholy places”, as Scripture tells us that we are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
The only way out of this for you is if you say that the Holy Spirit is not God - and I severely doubt that you will.

2: I see no citations that demonstrates Mary’s sinlessness? I honestly do not. The citation from Luke says nothing of the sort.

It is true that IF Scripture taught that Mary was sinless, claiming the opposite would be false teaching.
But that is a very big “if” indeed.
 
Why is it so important to claim that she sinned?
It is not in itself - it is the blatant disregard for the teachings of Scripture that troubles me.
The question of Mary’s status as a sinner is not the disease itself - it is the symptoms of the disease.
 
Sometimes it feels like having a discussion with you(non-catholics) is like this:

Me: The orange is clearly a fruit. It is round. And it is orange.

You: No. It is not green at all.

Me: Okay. Right. But. Can we agree, based on the evidence, that it is round and orange, hence its name?

You: No. You’ve got it all wrong. It’s clearly not purple.

Here’s a metaphor, and I’ll put it bluntly. The soul of every believer is Mary. Mary is an image of the Christian soul. Why do I say this? Because it is the duty of every Christian to give birth to Christ in their souls–that is, to become like Christ in order to become one with Christ. The soul is in a state of transformation, therefore–from Mary (the one who receives the word, the fertile ground in which the Gospel seed is planted), to Christ, entering into the fullness of relationship to God through Jesus. Mary is not the mediator, here. Mary is representative of the soul’s relationship to her creator.
 
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