Mary WAS sinless

[jpdrums]

Oh and Mary herself did not think she was worthy to be the mother of God. Why would someone without sin be surprised that she was to carry God’s only son.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Oh and Mary herself did not think she was worthy to be the mother of God. Why would someone without sin be surprised that she was to carry God’s only son.

God made her sinless. Are you saying God cannot do that?

 

[dosdog]

“All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.” (Rom 3:23)

You can not get much clearer than that.

Also if you have noticed, the mainstream catholic bible does not use the description “Full of grace” any more but “highly favored one.” I am not saying that Mary was not important because she was but the bible also uses the same description when talking about Stephen. (Read Acts 6) Stephen was a sinner and yet he is described with the same words as Mary.

2 Peter 1:12-15 This is pretty much saying that Peter would not let us down and restate things the people already know. So why would he not mention Mary living without sin. If the argument is oral tradition Peter here says even though you already know I will keep reminding you. What would be a better way of reminding Christians of things they need to know than to write them down?

Why is it every Protestant Reads in “Mortal Sin”?

Lexicon / Concordance for Rom 3:23
have sinned,
Greek for G264 ἁμαρτάνω
Transliteration
hamartanō

1. to be without a share in
2. to miss the mark
3. to err, be mistaken

come short
Greek for G5302 ὑστερέω
Transliteration
hystereō

1. behind

a) to come late or too tardily

1. to be left behind in the race and so fail to reach the goal, to fall short of the end

cin.org/users/james/files/talmud.htm

Jeremias 1 5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[LilyM]

Oh and Mary herself did not think she was worthy to be the mother of God. Why would someone without sin be surprised that she was to carry God’s only son.

Firstly who says she was really surprised? Sure, the angel says ‘do not fear’, but that’s a routine thing - the angel says the same to Joseph and the shepherds. Seems that something about the appearance of the angel itself inspired fear. And that fear is gotten out of the way before the angel even TELLS Mary what was going to happen. It’s not related to the content of the message.

There were other people without sin, y’know, before Mary. Adam and Eve before the fall, Enoch and Elijah (since they were assumed to heaven they were necessarily without sin) … you think they were never surprised at anything God told them? Course they were surprised at times. Doesn’t mean they weren’t sinless.

Then examine the rest of the exchange. She wonders about the purpose of the angel’s visit, sure, and wonders about the mechanics of how it would happen, but otherwise is unnaturally calm and collected and not particularly surprised considering the nature of what she is being told …

I mean if it’d been me I’d have been in hysterics during the whole thing and convinced I was delusional afterwards.

 

[Singinbeauty]

Where does the Bible say she did sin?

It doesn’t, so why all the arguing…

If you found out tomorrow that Mary was not sinless would this change how you felt about your Faith and would you turn away from it? If you answered yes then you are putting your Faith in the wrong place. Focus should be on CHRIST and Him only. It does not matter if she sinned or didn’t sin. That is her business with God. If He did choose to save her from this then hurray for her, she didn’t have to deal with what we deal with everyday… what I wouldn’t give for this!!!

For those with the ‘For all have sinned’ argument… When those who bring up the whole ‘does that include Jesus’ statement I just crack up! How can God fall short of Himself??? For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We fall short of Christ everyday. Without His Holy Sacrifice we would have no hope. Mary included.

For those who say it is disrespectful to state that they would rather focus on Christ and not worry about Mary’s sinful or sinless state (I have actually had this said to me) I say your focus is on the wrong person. Christ NEVER pointed anyone to His mother until his dying day when He appointed one of the apostles to look after her (as per the custom, He made sure she was taken care of). Since Christ is still alive I will focus on Him and give Mary her rest in Heaven to enjoy her just rewards.

 

[LilyM]

It doesn’t, so why all the arguing…

If you found out tomorrow that Mary was not sinless would this change how you felt about your Faith and would you turn away from it? If you answered yes then you are putting your Faith in the wrong place. Focus should be on CHRIST and Him only. It does not matter if she sinned or didn’t sin. That is her business with God. If He did choose to save her from this then hurray for her, she didn’t have to deal with what we deal with everyday… what I wouldn’t give for this!!!

For those with the ‘For all have sinned’ argument… When those who bring up the whole ‘does that include Jesus’ statement I just crack up! How can God fall short of Himself??? For all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. We fall short of Christ everyday. Without His Holy Sacrifice we would have no hope. Mary included.

For those who say it is disrespectful to state that they would rather focus on Christ and not worry about Mary’s sinful or sinless state (I have actually had this said to me) I say your focus is on the wrong person. Christ NEVER pointed anyone to His mother until his dying day when He appointed one of the apostles to look after her (as per the custom, He made sure she was taken care of). Since Christ is still alive I will focus on Him and give Mary her rest in Heaven to enjoy her just rewards.

But you don’t get it - all the Marian dogmas have to do with Christ, with how Mary is if everything we know about Jesus and His nature is to be true.

If Mary wasn’t sinless, made so by virtue of the fact that she was to bear God Himself within her and thus was His living ark, Temple and Tabernacle, then it necessarily means that that which she bore within her, namely Jesus, was not God but just an ordinary child, an ordinary baby, that leaves no mark on the place where it dwells.

At the same time, to assert that Mary’s flesh was sinful and Jesus’ wasn’t is to assert that Jesus wasn’t truly human as well, that He didn’t properly take flesh and humanity of Mary, which He must have since He had no human father. In other words that He wasn’t truly ‘like us in all things but sin’.

God necessarily sanctifies and purifies every place where He dwells, from the burning bush to the Holy of Holies in Solomon’s Temple to our churches today. Mary was the holiest of holies, God dwelt in her in a way He never has in any other place, at least not until after the Last Supper. Ergo she was and is utterly holy and spotless.

 

[jpdrums]

You keep asking were does it say in the Bible that Mary is without out sin. I have already addressed that. There is no place in the Bible that states Mary is sinless as bluntly as it says “All have sinned.” Yes highly favored (don’t forget to look up about Stephen) is nice but that does not mean sinless. Adam and Eve did sin that is why we are here today. And God (through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ) can forgive and wash all clean of sin, but that does not mean they did not sin to begin with.
When Jesus was born was it in a palace? Did he have a golden cradle? Was he born to an earthly king? As Christians we no the answers to these questions and I am sure we all know why. So then why the special treatment of being born to a “sinless” mother. Oh yes he got special treatment (sorta) by being born of a virgin but this was necessary to help believe. And that part is written clearly in the Bible.

 

[jpdrums]

From the greek it seems: All “to err (sin)” and “fail to reach the goal” sounds like “All sin and fall short of” to me

 

[dosdog]

Three hundred years before it was declared Dogma, the Protestant reformer Martin Luther said:

“…so that while the soul was being infused, she would at the same time be cleansed from original sin…And thus, in the very moment in which she began to live, she was without all sin.” (Martin Luther’s Works, vol 4, pg 694)

"God has formed the soul and body of the Virgin Mary full of the Holy Spirit, so that she is without all sins, " (ibid. vol 52, pg 39)

“. . . she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin. . . . God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. . . . God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.” (Ref: Luther’s Works, American edition, vol. 43, p. 40, ed. H. Lehmann, Fortress, 1968)

davidmacd.com/catholic/mary_conceived_without_sin_immaculate_conception.htm

 

[jpdrums]

This is still not Biblical proof only proof that someone said she was. The Catholic Church has been around the longest but 300 years before declared dogmatic is no were near the time when Mary lived. If we can all agree that man can not live without sin and doing wrong than it seems to make sense that the longer man has control (or in this case thinks we have control) the more it can become corrupt. Yes in the Bible it says that Jesus is the head of the church and since he is living we know he would not let anything happen to his church. This does not mean a single church will “dye out” or even maybe a “denomination” will stay around forever (I realize the catholic church has been around the longest but during most of the major times of trying it was the only church around). I believe that the church (body of Christians) has been broken up as a checks and balances. If you look at some of the new ideas of the catholic church (like God being nice not just to be feared) these first came from the no catholic christians.

 

[Good_Fella]

Oh and Mary herself did not think she was worthy to be the mother of God. Why would someone without sin be surprised that she was to carry God’s only son.

Mary considered herself unworthy because she was pure in heart and humble - not because she was sinful. Mary said:

“My soul does magnify the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my saviour.
For he has looked with favour upon his lowly handmaid;
behold, from now all generations will call me blessed.
The Mighty One has done great things for me,
and holy is his name.” {Luke 1, 46-49}

The Magnificat is a humble canticle of praise and thanksgiving, a far cry from a prayer of repentance. Let us contrast our Blessed Mother’s words with those of the psalmist David (Psalm 51):

Mary: “My soul does magnify the greatness of the Lord.” (indicative mood: I am pure.)

David: “A pure heart create for me, my God. Put a steadfast spirit within me. O wash me more and more from my guilt and cleanse me from my sin.” (imperative mood: You purify me.)

Mary: “My spirit rejoices in God my saviour.” (indicative mood: I am saved.)

David: “Have mercy on me God in your kindness. In your compassion blot out my offense.”
(imperative mood: You save me.)

Mary: “For he has looked with favour upon his lowly handmaid.” (present perfect)

David: “Do not cast me away from your presence, nor deprive me of your Holy Spirit.”
(negative imperative)

Mary: “Behold, from now ‘all generations’ will call me blessed.”

David: “O rescue me God my helper and ‘my tongue’ shall ring out your goodness.”

Mary: “The Mighty One has done great things for me and holy is his name.”

David: “Make me hear rejoicing and gladness, that the bones you have crushed may revive. From my sins turn away your face and blot out all my guilt.”

The Gospel of Luke expresses the traditional belief about Mary in the Church in apostolic time - that she was sinless. Sacred Scripture comes from Sacred Tradition, so the Word of God must be interpreted in light of the apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church in order to be inerrant. Paul tells Timothy that the Church - not the Bible - is “the pillar and groundwork of the truth”,

Mary’s cousin, Elizabeth, is the first person to call Mary “blessed” together with her Divine offspring.

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb.” {Luke 1, 41-42}

The traditional Catholic understanding of Elizabeth’s declaration is articulated by the Church Fathers, notably Ephraem (A.D. 370):

“Thou alone, and thy Mother, are in all things fair; there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy mother.”

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[dosdog]

Ambrose of Milan

Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin (Commentary on Psalm 118:22-30 [A.D. 387]).

 

[wmscott]

AFollower, respectfully, I can see your error in understanding with regards to the Blessed Mothers state of grace. However, do not worry; many in your position have the same error in understanding.

Many Protestant Bibles contain the following verse and salutation:

28 And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. KJV (Luke 1)

While the accurate translation contained in the Douay-Rheims is as follows:

28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women. DR (Luke 1)

At issue are the bold underlined statements. What you really need to understand is that if you are full of grace there is no room for sin, Gods grace is overflowing. That is why God chose the Blessed Mother to be the Mother of God, the new Ark of the Covenant, a perfect vessel to carry the Lord Jesus Christ in. being full of grace is a much more significant greeting and meaning than thou that art highly favoured. To utilize this salutation is to water down the entire significance of the fact that the Blessed Mother is full of grace and that the role in which the Blessed Mother is to play through out Christ’s life. There is a reason that the Blessed Mother is full of grace, there is a reason that the Blessed Mother was conceived with out sin. That is She is full of grace!!!

Nevertheless, take heart; this is a common failure of most protestant’s to fully comprehend the amazing gifts that the Lord can bestow upon any one human being, and to the depth of those gifts. This is a common failure in most protestant views to fully comprehend the depth and foresight that the Lord has in His grand scheme of things. I also understand that, as a Protestant, to admit that the RC has it right concerning the Blessed Mother, is to admit that your Protestant teachings are wrong. (Heaven Forbid).

Let me pose a question, since Jesus stated that he was not here to abolish or change the old laws (Ten Commandments) but to keep them, and Jesus honored his Mother, can you imagine the greatness in God honoring a human, what do you feel Jesus’ feelings are towards those who give little or no respect towards his Mother? Both Protestant and Catholic interpretations are basically the same:

12Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. (KJV, Exodus 20)

12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayest be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee. (DR, Exodus 20)

There is only two other places in the Bible that the term “Full of Grace” is applied and that is:

John 1
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we saw his glory, the glory as it were of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Here it is referring to Christ.

3 Acts Of Apostles 6
8 And Stephen, full of grace and fortitude, did great wonders and signs among the people.
Here it is referring to the state Stephen was in when performing Gods work.

Therefore, as I stated before I can understand your lack of or willingness not to understand the concept of the Blessed Mother being sinless. I was there once, as one of the Protestant denominations, I used to play down the importance and significance of the Blessed Mother. It was a time of shadows where the fullness of truth was veiled to me. I thank God that the veil was lifted and I am now free to see, comprehend, and participate in the fullness of truth.

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

It doesn’t say in the bible that she sinned. So how are you protestants so sure???:ehh:

LUKE 11:27-28 "AS JESUS WAS SAYING THESE THINGS, A WOMAN IN THE CROWD CALLED OUT,“BLESSED IS THE MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH AND NURSED YOU.”
"HE REPLIED,“BLESSED RATHER ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEY IT.”

You Catholics say that Mary gave birth to God and that she is the mother of God, but John 1:3 says that through JESUS all things(including Mary) were made.

 

[MelanieAnne]

LUKE 11:27-28 "AS JESUS WAS SAYING THESE THINGS, A WOMAN IN THE CROWD CALLED OUT,“BLESSED IS THE MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH AND NURSED YOU.”
"HE REPLIED,“BLESSED RATHER ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEY IT.”

You Catholics say that Mary gave birth to God and that she is the mother of God, but John 1:3 says that through JESUS all things(including Mary) were made.

And how does that have a bearing on whether or not God made Mary full of grace and without sin?

 

[5pintLutheran]

LUKE 11:27-28 "AS JESUS WAS SAYING THESE THINGS, A WOMAN IN THE CROWD CALLED OUT,“BLESSED IS THE MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH AND NURSED YOU.”
"HE REPLIED,“BLESSED RATHER ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEY IT.”

You Catholics say that Mary gave birth to God and that she is the mother of God, but John 1:3 says that through JESUS all things(including Mary) were made.

I have a set of questions:

1. Is Jesus God? Answer: Of course he is, fully God, fully Man in Human Form.
2. Is Mary His mother? Answer: Of course she was and still is: Jesus was concieved through a woman, by the Holy Spirit.
3. Based upon the 2 previous questions, would it be valid to claim that the Blessed Virgin was/is truly the mother of God? Answer: Of course 5pintLutheran, its a very simple answer to a simple question.

In ancient times, the Church established the fact that the Virgin mother didn’t give birth to just a mere man, but God incarnate. She gave Christ his human nature, but was concieved by the Holy Spirit, in which he is attributed his Divine nature. This was taught to suppress heresy during the early days of the Church. So in seeing this, the Blessed Virgin Mary is truly the mother of God.

 

[Good_Fella]

LUKE 11:27-28 "AS JESUS WAS SAYING THESE THINGS, A WOMAN IN THE CROWD CALLED OUT,“BLESSED IS THE MOTHER WHO GAVE YOU BIRTH AND NURSED YOU.”
"HE REPLIED,“BLESSED RATHER ARE THOSE WHO HEAR THE WORD OF GOD AND OBEY IT.”

You Catholics say that Mary gave birth to God and that she is the mother of God, but John 1:3 says that through JESUS all things(including Mary) were made.

From the Nicene Creed (Council of Nicea 1: A.D. 325)

We believe…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance of the Father…who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man.

“But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord (adonis = Lord God or YHWH) should come to me?” {Luke 1, 43}

Mary is the Mother of God, unless you think the historical Jesus was not a single Divine Person who took on a human nature in union with his divine nature. Since Mary’s offspring was divine, we Catholics believe God made her sinless and pure as a type of undefiled ark of the Old Covenant which carried the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

‘Christianity Today’ reported that only 2 of 5 Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. That’s about 43% of the Fundamentalist population.
( 18 April, 2 May 1980).

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[wmscott]

From the Nicene Creed (Council of Nicea 1: A.D. 325)

We believe…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance of the Father…who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man.

“But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord (adonis = Lord God or YHWH) should come to me?” {Luke 1, 43}

Mary is the Mother of God, unless you think the historical Jesus was not a single Divine Person who took on a human nature in union with his divine nature. Since Mary’s offspring was divine, we Catholics believe God made her sinless and pure as a type of undefiled ark of the Old Covenant which carried the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

‘Christianity Today’ reported that only 2 of 5 Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. That’s about 43% of the Fundamentalist population.
( 18 April, 2 May 1980).

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

I think that what some Protestants have trouble dealing with is the connection of the Blessed Mother to the Trinity. Obviously, Mary is not the mother of God the Father or God the Holy Spirit; however, she is Mother of God the Son. In order for God the Son to be born he needed a perfect vessel in which to be born from (would you expect anything less?), hence the Immaculate Conception of Mary and her sinless state, to be the Ark of the New Covenant.

Think of it this way, when I go to confession and I am absolved of all my sins, I am in a state of grace until I sin again. It may be a month, week, day, hours or minutes. The fact still remains that until I sin again there is that grace. Who’s to say that the Lords “Will” did not encompass the Blessed Mother through out her life to protect her from sinning. In this way the Ark of the New Covenant, from conception to eternity still remains pure and full of grace.

 

[jpdrums]

We all know what was said to Mary. Blessed does not translate into sinless. Blessed are those poor in spirit…blessed are those who believe and do not see… and this does not make them sinless. The old Catholic translation (DR) is translated from the original greek to latin to english. So i would not say that that particular translation is the most accurate. Every word used to describe Mary in the Bible in any translation can also be found describing a sinner. Again look up Stephen in Acts 3. Mary, a human, did give birth to Jesus but all humans sin except the unblemished Lamb of God. How hard would it be to get people to believe that a virgin gave birth? Yet that part is not left out. How hard would it be to get people to believe that a mere human went their entire life without committing a sin. Would something that magnificent be recorded as well. It would only take a few word to say: born to a virgin without sin. Again I think if a Jewish woman who gave birth to the savior of the world was sinless it would have been important enough to write down when telling the story.

Et tu, pax vobiscum

 

[jpdrums]

If God the Father wanted to he could do anything. He gave us the ift of free will. If he wanted to mess with that than why did he not say the entire human race bye keeping Adam and Eve from sinning? And yes when you ask the Lord to forgive you of your sins you are washed clean but that does not mean you never sinned.