Mary WAS sinless

[MelanieAnne]

We all know what was said to Mary. Blessed does not translate into sinless. Blessed are those poor in spirit…blessed are those who believe and do not see… and this does not make them sinless. The old Catholic translation (DR) is translated from the original greek to latin to english. So i would not say that that particular translation is the most accurate. Every word used to describe Mary in the Bible in any translation can also be found describing a sinner. Again look up Stephen in Acts 3. Mary, a human, did give birth to Jesus but all humans sin except the unblemished Lamb of God. How hard would it be to get people to believe that a virgin gave birth? Yet that part is not left out. How hard would it be to get people to believe that a mere human went their entire life without committing a sin. Would something that magnificent be recorded as well. It would only take a few word to say: born to a virgin without sin. Again I think if a Jewish woman who gave birth to the savior of the world was sinless it would have been important enough to write down when telling the story.

Et tu, pax vobiscum

The correct translation is not “blessed”. The word in the original text is unique in scripture, and only used in reference to Mary. This has been covered in detail on other threads. Rather than repeat it here, it would be more efficient simply to research the other threads that have covered this subject. Since “blessed” is not a correct translation, the conclusion that Mary was not sinless is likewise incorrect.

The correct translation of the word supports the conclusion that Mary was sinless.

 

[MelanieAnne]

If God the Father wanted to he could do anything. He gave us the ift of free will. If he wanted to mess with that than why did he not say the entire human race bye keeping Adam and Eve from sinning? And yes when you ask the Lord to forgive you of your sins you are washed clean but that does not mean you never sinned.

That’s correct God can do anything. In this case, He made Mary sinless.

 

[jpdrums]

the only way to do that is to take away her free will or like everyone else through the death of his son. Why not just simply make all of us sinless without having to sacrifice Jesus?

 

[jpdrums]

And if that is not the correct translation then every bible translation is wrong? why not translate it correctly so everyone can read the “real” translation.

 

[MelanieAnne]

And if that is not the correct translation then every bible translation is wrong? why not translate it correctly so everyone can read the “real” translation.

It’s not so much that it is wrong, it’s more that simply to translate as “blessed” is inadequate to convey the full meaning. Persons far more knowledgeable than I, and who understand the language of the original text, have written in detail about the word in question and, as I have already noted, it would be far more efficient, if you truly want to learn the facts, to read those threads.

You have mentioned things that make sense to you, such as, it would make sense, if Mary was sinless, for someone to have recorded that. But it makes just as much sense not to write down something that everyone already knows. So a case could also be made that it wasn’t written down because it wasn’t necessary to write down something everyone already knew.

Sticking with the word in question, it is only used to describe Mary. It appears no where else in the Bible, it is not used to describe anyone else EVER. It is commonly translated as “blessed” or “highly favored”, etc. although these words and phrases, especially without explanation or without understanding the context and significance, cannot fully convey the meaning of the original text.

Just using the same “doesn’t it make sense” line of thinking, if Mary is referred to in a way that no one else in the Bible is referred to, as she was by the word in the original text, in a very special and unique way, doesn’t it make sense that there was something very special and unique about her? In fact there was. God created her to be without sin so that Jesus would have a holy place to inhabit within her womb. Makes complete sense.

 

[jpdrums]

Well using your logic didn’t everyone know Mary was a virgin. didn’t everyone know Jesus died for our sins. didn’t everyone know he rose from the dead. These seem like basics any Christian would know why are they written down? Like everything else to educate those who know nothing.

What do you think is the correct translation? If it is full of grace than you are looking at the old Catholic Bible. even then Acts 3 describes Stephen full of grace in that same translation. I can not find the threads you are talking about. If you could direct me so i could see i would be great full.

Thanks

 

[marksbaird0211]

these pretexts of scripture prove nothing.

Jesus did not sin

scripture says that God destroyed all men on earth in the flood, yet he did not destroy noah, his three sons and their wives. was God lying?

also, if all have sinned, then what about unborn babies that are murdered, did they sin?
do retarded people sin?
do insane people sin?

of course not. you have to know what sin is and knowingly commit it for it to be a sin.

James 5:14 and following says that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. who is righteous? your quotes say no one is, absolutely no one. but the Bible tells us a much different story when read IN context.

peace

I agree- scripture is there as a guide to understanding God’s law, not only literal. Mary was free from Original Sin providence justifies this Doctrine as true.

 

[LilyM]

the only way to do that is to take away her free will or like everyone else through the death of his son. Why not just simply make all of us sinless without having to sacrifice Jesus?

Adam and Eve were sinless - no original or personal sin - when they were first created. If they had free will, and they did, then they had every chance of not listening to the serpent as well as listening to him. If they’d chosen (which was entirely possible) to not listen, they would’ve been as Mary was, no sin personal or original.

So God didn’t take away Mary’s free will at all - even people without original sin have free will to choose actual personal sin. Mary just did the opposite of Adam and Eve, co-operated utterly with God’s will and didn’t sin.

 

[Nickkname]

First off, do you believe yourself worthy to carry God’s son? That is what you are implying by saying she was sinful.

Also, in the bible, all the big figures, such as Moses, Peter, the apostles, Saul, King David the chosen one, ALL sinned at some point and had to be humbled and reminded of who was in charge. :tsktsk: In the bible, Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD and not even once does Jesus reprimand her or tell her what she did wrong, because she didn’t DO anything wrong. If she had sinned, don’t you think we would know??? It doesn’t say in the bible that she sinned. So how are you protestants so sure???:ehh:

Hurray, a defender of the Immaculate Conception! Let us ask Our Lady of Lourdes to pray for us.

I certainily do believe that Mary was sinless. However, your reasoning is a bit off. The Immaculate Conception was not a necessity. It is actually a grace, a gift of God’s Mercy to Mary, and, through Mary, to the Church and to the whole world.

No one is worthy to carry God in their womb. No one is even worthy of being a Priest, so of course no one would be worthy of being the Mother of God. But God predestined Mary to be his Mother. Granted, the whole work of Redemption depended on her free choice to accept God’s will. She could have said No, but, trusting in the word of God, who spoke to her in his angel Gabriel, she said Yes. And her Yes was for every single Christian - it is our Yes to God’s Will. Mary, in fact, participated in the Yes of her Son - her Yes foreshadowed his Yes and his Yes was her Yes.

If Mary did sin, we would certainly know about it. There would be eyewitness accounts. In fact, Mary becoming pregnant with a child would have been a sin if Mary had laid down with a man other than Joseph - but since she had not, she had commited no sin. This is why the angel told Joseph, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary your wife into your home. For it is through the holy Spirit that this child has been conceived in her. She will bear a son and you are to name him Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.” (Italics are my emphasis)

 

[jpdrums]

If Mary sinned we would know about it??? Would it not be more amazing if she didn’t sin? Everyone sins so the fact that someone sins does not need to be written down because that is an obvious truth to all Christians. All have sinned and fall short… no one comes to the father except through me… these are clear statments that anyone can understand. The bible is not there to trick you but to make it’s messages clear and easy to understand. Things are bluntly stated all over the bible and some one other that Jesus living without sin would be important enough to bluntly say.

And yes God said all will perish to Noah but he then went on to say tell him that he would be spared. If the only people that sin are those who know they are sinning than all those who do not believe in the lord are not sinning. They do not believe in God so they do not believe in sin therefore they do not know any better. Aborted children are not born so they do not have original sin. Children do but the lord IS kind and merciful.

 

[wmscott]

If Mary sinned we would know about it??? Would it not be more amazing if she didn’t sin? Everyone sins so the fact that someone sins does not need to be written down because that is an obvious truth to all Christians. All have sinned and fall short… no one comes to the father except through me… these are clear statments that anyone can understand. The bible is not there to trick you but to make it’s messages clear and easy to understand. Things are bluntly stated all over the bible and some one other that Jesus living without sin would be important enough to bluntly say.

And yes God said all will perish to Noah but he then went on to say tell him that he would be spared. If the only people that sin are those who know they are sinning than all those who do not believe in the lord are not sinning. They do not believe in God so they do not believe in sin therefore they do not know any better. Aborted children are not born so they do not have original sin. Children do but the lord IS kind and merciful.

Just a question, what does Full of Grace mean to you?

 

[LilyM]

If Mary sinned we would know about it??? Would it not be more amazing if she didn’t sin? Everyone sins so the fact that someone sins does not need to be written down because that is an obvious truth to all Christians. All have sinned and fall short… no one comes to the father except through me… these are clear statments that anyone can understand. The bible is not there to trick you but to make it’s messages clear and easy to understand. Things are bluntly stated all over the bible and some one other that Jesus living without sin would be important enough to bluntly say.

And yes God said all will perish to Noah but he then went on to say tell him that he would be spared. If the only people that sin are those who know they are sinning than all those who do not believe in the lord are not sinning. They do not believe in God so they do not believe in sin therefore they do not know any better. Aborted children are not born so they do not have original sin. Children do but the lord IS kind and merciful.

Yes it would be unusual and thus more likely to be written down, but remember that Mary was likely still alive for the writing of most of the New Testament - now until someone has died you can’t write that they never sinned, as until their last breath they have opportunities to sin.

It’s funny that the one book of the NT which was likely written AFTER Mary’s death contains some hints as to her status - the ‘woman’ in Revelation 12 who bore the male child, ruler of the world, is clearly Mary (as well as symbolic of other things) since the child is obviously Jesus.

Firstly she is shown in Rev 12 as being crowned and in heaven. Secondly the vision of the ‘woman’ is immediately preceded by a statement saying the Ark of the Covenant was seen in heaven - but the Ark is never mentioned again after the woman is seen. Could it be the Ark and the Woman are the same thing (both seen in heaven?) If so, it points to something Catholics have long said - that Mary can rightly be called the Ark of the New Covenant. She bore within her God’s Word as the old Ark bore the word of the two tablets, she bore the Bread of Life within her as the Ark bore the Manna, and she bore within her our perfect High Priest as the Ark bore the staff of Aaron, the first High Priest of Israel.

 

[Good_Fella]

What do you think is the correct translation? If it is full of grace …even then Acts 3 describes Stephen full of grace in that same translation.

It is true that Stephen is described as “filled with grace” in Acts 6:8, but here the phrase is ‘pleres charitos’, not ‘kecharitomene’ as in Luke 1:28 with regard to Mary. We must also note that Scripture simply describes Stephen as “filled with grace (not full of grace) and power”. Mary, however, is not merely described as being filled with grace or full of grace; she is addressed “full of grace”. The angel Gabriel addresses Mary by substituting her given name for her immaculate state of sinlessness: “Hail, full of grace. The Lord is with you.” A filled glass of water is not necessarily a full glass of water. Mary’s soul was “full of grace”. There was no room left in her soul for sin to occupy, as air may have room to occupy a partially filled glass of water. Luke is being emphatic about a particular belief held by the Christian community.

Now I understand where you are coming from in your Protestant persuasion; you are averse to the belief that Mary was created preserved free from original sin and spared the inheritance of a sinful human nature, for you feel that her immaculate state elevates her to the level of the deity, making her out to be a form of goddess set above and apart from the rest of the human race. And so you cannot accept the Catholic understanding that Mary was set apart from the rest of us in this manner because of her Divine maternity. But the Catholic perception was shared by Luke and his church.

“Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” { Luke 1: 42 }

Observe that Mary is declared “most” blessed among women and just as blessed as her Divine Son. The verse is written in this structure to emphasize that both mother and child are equally blessed above and apart from the rest of humanity. They cannot be separated from the human race other than by being sinless. Yet Mary’s sinlessness was not the result of anything she may have merited on her part but was a gratuitous gift from God.

“The Almighty has done great things for me and holy is His name.” { Luke 1, 49}

Elizabeth’s declaration (1, 42) is associated with that of the angel Gabriel who adressed Mary by the appellation “full of grace”. Luke shared the Catholic belief that Mary was in a state of grace by the time God’s messenger greeted her and acknowledged her blessedness. She is presented as having been gratuitously granted the state of the fullness of grace. The angel Gabriel could just as well have said: “Hail, you who have always been in a state of grace and always will be.” ‘Kecharitomene’ (perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning endowed with grace) is derived from the Greek root ‘charis’ which literally means ‘grace’, and bibically grace can be regarded as a state of sinlessness. Indeed, ‘charis’ often refers to the strength and ability God bestows on us to overcome sin. Grace is the basis of justification and is also manifested in it.The work of grace in overcoming sin dispalys its power (Rom5: 20-21; 2:5).Grace is sufficient (1 Cor1:29).

Paul wrote to the Ephesians ( 2:8): “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is a gift of God.” Protestants may argue that a human being who has just been conceived is in no position to acquire faith. But the grace of God precedes and effects faith. Mary exemplified perfect faith when she responded to the grace which had been given her.

“Behold the handmaid of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word.” {Luke 1, 38}

Both Catholics and Protestants agree that grace saves us and gives us the strength to be holy and righteous - without sin. And to be in a present state of grace is to be sinless and in God’s favour. And by grace through faith we are justified before God. Luke was inspired to understand that Mary was already justified and made righteous by the merits of her Son’s Passion even before the angel Gabriel greeted her with the good news of salvation. Her soul had been claimed by God when he sanctified it with his grace at the moment of her conception. God willed that the ark of the New Covenant must not be defiled by original sin.

“My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
my spirit rejoices in God my saviour.
For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness.” { Luke 1, 46-48}

“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.”
St. Ambrose ( A.D. 388 )

Jerome managed to get his hands on extant original Hebrew texts, that survived the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70, in his translation and production of the Latin Vulgate. Luke originally wrote his gospel in Aramaic, similar to Hebraic, before it was translated into the Greek. Still we must give precedence to theology.

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[Jesuspaiditall]

From the Nicene Creed (Council of Nicea 1: A.D. 325)

We believe…in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance of the Father…who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man.

“But why am I so favoured, that the mother of my Lord (adonis = Lord God or YHWH) should come to me?” {Luke 1, 43}

Mary is the Mother of God, unless you think the historical Jesus was not a single Divine Person who took on a human nature in union with his divine nature. Since Mary’s offspring was divine, we Catholics believe God made her sinless and pure as a type of undefiled ark of the Old Covenant which carried the Word of God. Jesus is the Word of God made flesh.

‘Christianity Today’ reported that only 2 of 5 Evangelical Christians believe that Jesus is both fully God and fully man. That’s about 43% of the Fundamentalist population.
( 18 April, 2 May 1980).

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

“In the beginning was the Word” Jesus has been around forever. Mary gave birth to Jesus physical body;he didn’t just start then!

Also Micah 5:2, a prophecy about Jesus. “whose origins are from of old, from everlasting.”

 

[Good_Fella]

“In the beginning was the Word” Jesus has been around forever. Mary gave birth to Jesus physical body;he didn’t just start then!

Also Micah 5:2, a prophecy about Jesus. “whose origins are from of old, from everlasting.”

Is that so? :coffeeread:

In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
He was in the beginning with God…
And the Word became flesh
and made his dwelling among us.
{John 1: 1-2, 14}

Mary is the mother of the Word become flesh. She is not the mother of flesh - a preposterous claim. Having become man, Jesus is still God. Mary gave birth to the God-Man.

The Word became flesh in the incarnation of our Lord. Mary conceived and gave birth to one Divine Person who took on our humanity through her. In the incarnation the human soul of Jesus was fashioned by the power of the Holy Spirit, and through Mary the Divine person assumed a human nature consisting of a human mind and a human will. Mother’s conceive and bear persons, not natures. It would appear that you are suggesting that Mary gave birth to a human nature, which is odd, or that she gave birth to a human person who co-inhabited a body with a Divine Person. Either conclusion logically follows from your reasoning.

Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “How does this happen that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” {Luke 1, 43}

Luke originally wrote his gospel in Aramaic. ‘Adonis’ (‘kyrios’ in the Greek) is “Lord God” or YHWH in Aramaic. You disagree with Luke. :coffeeread:

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella

 

[SIA]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

great points.

 

[Good_Fella]

great points.

Is that so? :coffeeread:

One point you have missed or rejected is that the traditional belief of Mary’s sinlessness existed in the church in Palestine before the New Testament was eventually written by the end of the first century. And this doctrine continued to exist, as is evident by the teachings of the early Church Fathers, before the canon of Scripture in the late fourth century. As already pointed out above, Luke appealed to Old Testament typology to confirm and express the Church’s belief in Mary’s sinlessness. There was no need to present an explicit narrative, for there weren’t any heretics around at the time to challenge the Church’s Marian teachings. Indeed, it was crucial for the Apostles to compose explicit narratives concerning the Church’s Christological beliefs, for the Jewish leaders rejected them and persecuted the Church on account of them. Moreover, the life, death, and resurrection of Christ was at the heart of the Christian faith and the core of its existence as it still is.

A garden enclosed is my sister, my spouse; a spring shut up, a fountain sealed.
{Song of Songs 4, 12}

Mary’s soul was a garden which the serpent was forbidden to enter.

“I will put enmity between you and the woman, ‘and’ between your offspring and hers. He (She) will strike at your head, while you strike at his (her) heel.”
{Genesis 3, 15}

And Elizabeth, filled with the Holy Spirit, cried out and said, “Most blessed are you among women, ‘and’ blessed is the fruit of your womb.”
{Luke 1, 42}

“Let woman praise her, the pure Mary.”
Ephraem (A.D. 370)

Pax vobiscum
Good Fella