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stormcloud
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You didn’t answer the question. Let me put it this way, what does it mean to bear fruit?
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pablope
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pablope
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1journey
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that’s interesting-- because people how have visited medjugorje and viewed the apparitions of Mary there, now hear a voice speaking to them-- and are writing journals about it-- but it is interesting to see the video’s on u tube on that mary apearance–
i guesss some one shoud ask her – what’s her opinion? oh ya – we’re all sinners and need to pray the rosary-- and such – well the answer was easy
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inChristAlone33
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Red Herring: is a fallacy of distraction, and is committed when a listener attempts to divert an arguer from his argument by introducing another topic.
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pablope
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I think you are missing the poster’s point…you believe in the Holy Trinity…yet that is not clearly defined in the Bible and the doctrine of the Trinity was defined by a council of the Catholic Church…before the canon of the Bible was settled.
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inChristAlone33
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Evania
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Well, where is it?
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inChristAlone33
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I got the point and I could argue it in another thread.
No one has any Biblical basis for Mary worship and yet they continue to do it. I pray that I avoid self-deception but I must pray for Catholics as well.
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inChristAlone33
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Where is your Scriptural basis for Mary worship, as this is the topic of my thread.
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Evania
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He’s attempting to pivot from this point.
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Evania
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I posted it above. You never responded to it. It doesn’t have anything to do with worshipping, as that isn’t what we do. It answered some of your false Biblical claims though.
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Della
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These are modern defintions but not theological definitions of the word “worship”. What Catholics offer to God is adoration. Our worship centers around the one sacrifice Christ continually offers to the Father on our behalf (it is an eternal offering). The key to the Catholic understanding of worship is sacrifice. Our Mass consists of two liturgies: the Liturgy of the Word, in which we hear two readings from the Bible and one Gospel reading and the homily. The second liturgy is the Liturgy of the Eucharist–the representing in time the eternal sacrifice of Christ. This is worship to Catholics. You need to know this in order to understand that prayers offered to saints are not worship because they do not entail offering a sacrifice. If you look at the OT stories about Abraham and Moses, Isaac and Jacob, etc. each of them worshiped God by means of making a sacrifice. Moses instituted the sacrifices in the tabernacle, later the Temple, by God’s command. All this prefigured Christ’s sacrifice–the one we celebrate at every Mass.
Well, not quite.
Simply because the Bible does not tell us something explicitly does not mean we do not/cannot believe it. The Bible is not a proof text for doctrines/tenets. It is the witness to God’s workings in creation and in the redemption of man. But, if you wish to stick to the Bible only/we must find it in the Bible reasoning, then you have to explain how we came to believe, just with the Bible alone, that God is three persons of equal substance and dignity and not three gods. Or, that Jesus is fully man and fully God. Nowhere in the Bible are these two doctrine explictly stated. Indeed, it was Church councils that forumlated these doctrines that you believe because many, reading only the words of the Bible, refuted these teachings and had to be corrected.Jesus never commanded us to read a book. Instead, he founded a Church upon Peter and the Apostles. It was to men that he gave authority to decide matters of faith and morals, not any writings. We see this in the First Council of Jerusalem in the Book of Acts. They didn’t go by Scripture alone in making their decision, they prayed, deliberated and then decided what practices/beliefs the Church would hold. It’s been the same down through the centuries and is still happening today.
Mary is not dead, for Jesus told us the dead are not dead but alive with God. As to her hearing us, she now lives, as does Jesus and all the saints in heaven, in eternity, not within the confines of time. It is the Holy Spirit who makes it possible for her and the saints to hear us. There are good articles on this website that will help you with the scriptural references.
The mediation St. Paul speak of here is more than intercession, it is a reference to Jesus’ act of redemption when he offered himself as the mediator between God and man as the propitiation for our sins. Praying for one another is not that kind of mediation. Mary did not and does not offer herself as the mediator between God and man to pay for our sins–that’s not her role. She merely prays for us and aids us but she doesn’t offer herself for our sins.
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stormcloud
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You’re making a claim that praying to Mary for intercession is invalid because it isn’t in the Bible. You believe in the Holy Trinity, but that term isn’t found in the Bible either. You also insist on Sola Scriptura, yet the idea of scripture being the sole rule of faith isn’t found in the Bible. I’m quite sure you believe that there can not be any books added to the Bible, yet nowhere in scripture (either Old Testament or New) is there a list of approved books (and there were many books in the early centuries AD that claimed to be inspired by the Holy Spirit.).
I’m pointing out the contradictory nature of your claims.
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mymamamary
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Show me where sola scriptura is. Another piece of food for thought is that when You ask someone to pray for you in your congregation, You are interceding and are thus violating “We have only one mediator”. Otherwise, you must admit that we do the same thing as you, its just that we pray to people who are definitely saved.
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pablope
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pablope
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There is none because Catholics do not worship Mary…but what you judge is that we are worshipping Mary…by what you see…you are making a judgement.
Does the Bible allow you to make such judgements?
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Evania
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By the way, what Catholic do you know that believes in worshipping the Virgin Mary? That’s what YOU think we do. As to your claim that the Bible doesn’t say anything about Mary having the ability to hear prayers or mediate please explain the verses I found to refute you. This is only my third time asking…
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pablope
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That is right…you should also pray for understanding.
But how do you avoid self deception?
Then from 1John 4…6 We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit[a] of truth and the spirit of falsehood.
How do you think you should apply that passage above so that you are not deceived?
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jwinch2
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Your entire original post was full of logical fallacies, to include deliberately misrepresenting the other’s position in order to make your point.
The logic of asking you where the Trinity is proclaimed in the Bible is simple. If it was not, then someone outside of the Bible had to decide on it. Who was it? Did God come back and proclaim the Trinity to someone, who just couldn’t be bothered to write it down in Sacred Scripture, or was it decided upon by a ecumenical council under the authority of the Catholic Church?
Christ never promised us a Bible, neither did the Father. What Christ did promise us is a Church; a Church He said would speak for him, and would have the authority to bind and loose, to forgive sins in His name, etc.
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