Mary Worship

[R_C]

Yes, I do not agree with all of what Kempis writes about (I can say this about any author). But, that does not exclude what he has written that is aligned with Scripture. **I reject what is contrary to the Bible.
**
I have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and put my faith in Him alone. He has graciously humbled me and will continue to do so, (even today!) but I feel strongly about this subject. This does not make me less humble but more bold in my faith.

No, you do not reject what is contrary to the Bible, you reject what you think is contrary to the Bible. But that simply reflect the degree to which you lack understanding of the Sacred Scripture as well as of orthodox Christian tradition.

If you love Christ as Lord, then you will remember that God’s commandment is to love and honor our Father and our Mother. Then you should feel strongly about those who dishonor Mary, not about those who praise Christ through her.

As for the other things, I invite you to humble yourself, for boldness is easily confused with pridefulness, and seeking the truth often is mixed with impugning the revealed truth. There is nothing in the Catholic Church that is not rooted on Scripture, that is not supported by the entire 20 centuries of apostolic teaching with no contradiction of any sort, and above all else, Catholicism can disprove and refute from reason and scripture all non-Catholic Christian doctrines - each and everyone of them.

 

[Mark121359]

I will be stepping away for a time of prayer and reflection.

And when you come back, I’d love to here you answer jwinch2’s question below which you conveniently ignored!

Your entire original post was full of logical fallacies, to include deliberately misrepresenting the other’s position in order to make your point.

***The logic of asking you where the Trinity is proclaimed in the Bible is simple. If it was not, then someone outside of the Bible had to decide on it. Who was it? Did God come back and proclaim the Trinity to someone, who just couldn’t be bothered to write it down in Sacred Scripture, or was it decided upon by a ecumenical council under the authority of the Catholic Church? ***

Christ never promised us a Bible, neither did the Father. What Christ did promise us is a Church; a Church He said would speak for him, and would have the authority to bind and loose, to forgive sins in His name, etc.

 

[stormcloud]

If we all claim to have the truth (Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, Mormon, Buddhist, Atheist), many of us are self-deceived.

And this is exactly why Christ gave His authority to His Apostles, with one set as a type of prime minister, and that authority would be handed down until the end of time guided and protected by the Holy Spirit to prevent His Church from teaching error.

God Bless you and may your prayer and reflection be fruitful.

 

[R_C]

Pope Benedict XVI said on December 21:

We do not possess the truth, the truth possesses us.

Christ, who is the truth, takes us by the hand.

 

[adrift]

And when you come back, I’d love to here you answer jwinch2’s question below which you conveniently ignored!

There were many questions that went unanswered.

 

[jwinch2]

And when you come back, I’d love to here you answer jwinch2’s question below which you conveniently ignored!

I’m used to my question being ignored. My students do it all the time…

 

[Love4All]

My greatest concern for Catholics, or for any denomination, is the inclusion of doctrine that is not based on Scripture but rather tradition (in the case of Catholics).

On what, apart from the Catholic Church’s say-so, are you basing your opinion of the veracity of Scripture?

 

[Mark121359]

I’m used to my question being ignored. ***My students do it all the time… ***

That’s funny! …Although they’d be wise to listen to you me thinks!

 

[jwinch2]

That’s funny! …Although they’d be wise to listen to you me thinks!

Thanks

 

[JM3]

Despite being ignored…

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19670513_signum-magnum_en.html

1. True devotion to the Most Holy Mary reflects her virtues.

Neither the grace of the divine Redeemer, nor the powerful intercession of His Mother and our spiritual Mother, nor yet her sublime sanctity, could lead us to the port of salvation if we did not respond to them by our persevering will to honor Jesus Christ and the Holy Virgin with our devout imitation of their sublime virtue.

It is therefore the duty of all Christians to imitate in a reverent spirit the examples of goodness left to them by their heavenly Mother. This, venerable brothers, is the other truth to which we are pleased to call your attention and the attention of the faithful entrusted to your pastoral care, that they may second with docility the exhortation of the Fathers of the Second Vatican Council: “Let the faithful remember that true devotion consists neither in fruitless and passing emotion, nor in a certain vain credulity. Rather, it proceeds from true faith, by which we are led to know the excellence of the Mother of God, and are moved to a filial love toward our mother and to the imitation of her virtues.”(35)

Imitation of Jesus Christ is undoubtedly the regal way to be followed to attain sanctity and reproduce in ourselves, according to our forces, the absolute perfection of the heavenly Father. But while the Catholic Church has always proclaimed a truth so sacrosanct, it has also affirmed that imitation of the Virgin Mary, far from distracting the souls from the faithful following of Christ, makes it more pleasant and easier for them. For, since she had always done the will of God, she was the first to deserve the praise which Christ addressed to His disciples: “Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.”(36)

vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

The development, desired by us, of devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary is an indication of the Church’s genuine piety. This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father. In the sphere of worship this devotion necessarily reflects God’s redemptive plan, in which a special form of veneration is appropriate to the singular place which Mary occupies in that plan.(4) Indeed every authentic development of Christian worship is necessarily followed by a fitting increase of veneration for the Mother of the Lord. Moreover, the history of piety shows how “the various forms of devotion towards the Mother of God that the Church has approved within the limits of wholesome and orthodox doctrine”(5) have developed in harmonious subordination to the worship of Christ, and have gravitated towards this worship as to their natural and necessary point of reference.

 

[Jeanne_S]

Thank you JM3…this says it all!

 

[JM3]

CATHOLICS DO NOT WORSHIP MARY. THERE IS NO WORSHIP OF MARY BY CATHOLICS

This is not what the Church teaches.

CCC 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

The Church makes a distinction between worship as “special devotion” and worship as “adoration”. To say that Catholics do not worship Mary is to misrepresent the Church.

 

[Mark121359]

Looks like our newly elected Pope has quite the love for Our Heavenly Mother. God Bless Him!

During the 2005 Synod of Bishops, which was devoted to the Holy Eucharist, Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio reflected on the Blessed Sacrament and the Blessed Virgin Mary.

"Our faithful people believes as a Eucharistic people in Mary. They tie together their affection for the Eucharist and their affection for the Virgin, our Lady and Mother (cf. Redemptoris Mater III, 44). In the “school of Mary”, Eucharistic woman, we can reread contemplatively the passages in which John Paul II sees our Lady as a Eucharistic woman, and see her not alone but “in the company of” (Acts 1:14) the People of God.

We follow here that rule of tradition by which, with different nuances, “what is said of Mary is said of the soul of every Christian and of the whole Church.” (Ecclesia de Eucharistia, 57). Our faithful people have the true “Eucharistic attitude” of giving thanks and of praise.

Remembering Mary, they are grateful for being remembered by her, and this memorial of love is truly Eucharistic. In this respect I repeat what John Paul II affirmed in Ecclesia de Eucharistia number 58: “The Eucharist has been given to us so that our life, like that of Mary, can become completely a Magnificat.”

Peace, Mark

 

[Tantum_ergo]

This is not what the Church teaches.

CCC 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

The Church makes a distinction between worship as “special devotion” and worship as “adoration”. To say that Catholics do not worship Mary is to misrepresent the Church.

I’ve been saying the above since I’ve been on the site. I am constantly advocating that we stop allowing others to ‘redefine’ words and then expect us to accept their redefinition as correct.

Worship, etymologically speaking, comes from ‘worth ship’ or ‘being worthy’. Judges in Great Brittain are still addressed as "your worship’. NOBODY accuses the British people of worshipping their judges when they address them as such, because everybody understands that the use of the word ‘worship’ in that regard means ‘one who is worthy’. But somehow CATHOLICS who use the word in the SAME SENSE that the British do for their judges, that of ‘being worthy’, in regard to Mary, well, they are ‘obviously’ confusing Mary for God.

Honestly, anybody with a grain of intellectual decency would at least PAUSE and say, "well, considering that the BRITISH people use the term for judges and obviously don’t worship their judges, so perhaps the CATHOLICS use the term for Mary and don’t worship HER either’. . .but it’s so much easier to stomp and shout that "Worship is for GOD alone and the use of the term for anybody else just shows Catholics worship Mary’. . .

 

[Della]

In our zeal we overwhelmed the OP. As a former member of the Assemblies of God I know where he (to use the generic) is coming from and can sympathize with his dilemma. Going from reading the Imitation of Christ to fully accepting Catholic teaching regarding Mary or anything else is a loooooooooooooooong step. The OP demonstrated great love for Christ and truly believes what he has been taught by his faith community. We can’t fault anyone for that. The first stirrings of inquiry are a very delicate time for those peeking in through the Church’s door. Let’s be let him breath, and let’s pray for the OP that the Holy Spirit will guide him and bless his life no matter if he becomes a Catholic or not.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

In our zeal we overwhelmed the OP. As a former member of the Assemblies of God I know where he (to use the generic) is coming from and can sympathize with his dilemma. Going from reading the Imitation of Christ to fully accepting Catholic teaching regarding Mary or anything else is a loooooooooooooooong step. The OP demonstrated great love for Christ and truly believes what he has been taught by his faith community. We can’t fault anyone for that. The first stirrings of inquiry are a very delicate time for those peeking in through the Church’s door. Let’s be let him breath, and let’s pray for the OP that the Holy Spirit will guide him and bless his life no matter if he becomes a Catholic or not.

Sounds to me like he was looking for a fight or to proselytize us. He had absolutely NO right to say some of the very hurtful things he did about Marian devotion.

 

[Della]

Sounds to me like he was looking for a fight or to proselytize us. He had absolutely NO right to say some of the very hurtful things he did about Marian devotion.

To him they are simple truths–something he has been taught to believe. If he did come here to proselytize, he didn’t succeed. If he came here, dukes up, but still interested, it’s best he take a break. If he came here honestly inquiring, we overwhlemed him. We can only give him to God, in any case.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

To him they are simple truths–something he has been taught to believe. If he did come here to proselytize, he didn’t succeed. If he came here, dukes up, but still interested, it’s best he take a break. If he came here honestly inquiring, we overwhlemed him. We can only give him to God, in any case.

Very gracefully said. I could probably stand to learn a thing or two from you.

 

[Della]

Very gracefully said. I could probably stand to learn a thing or two from you.

You’re kind to say so. But really, it’s only good apolgetics to give people the benefit of the doubt. If they show they are only here to score points, then maybe they learned a thing or two against their will. We can never know what might help someone overcome their biases.

 

[Mark121359]

To him they are simple truths–something he has been taught to believe. If he did come here to proselytize, he didn’t succeed. If he came here, dukes up, but still interested, it’s best he take a break. If he came here honestly inquiring, we overwhlemed him. We can only give him to God, in any case.

Very gracefully said. I could probably stand to learn a thing or two from you.

I’ve been guilty of defending my “Mommy” on here a little to critically myself! But, thanks to people like Della and others here, I’m slowly starting to see it as she sees this and not be so forceful. Although sometimes I’ll still read something that really tries my patience…or lack thereof )