Mary Worship

[thomasf]

THIS!

All Mary has done for me is draw me closer to her son. She does not accept ‘worship’ of her, she always, always always points us to her son. Understanding who Mary is, why and how she loved Jesus, helps us to understand being a better Christian.

And if you don’t think Jesus loves His mama, listens to what she asks of Him, and places her high up in heaven, then you don’t understand Jesus.

 

[JM3]

the OP defined worship only as adoration as you did.

I guess you don’t read too well, nor understand what the Church is saying.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10485193&postcount=112

Since you choose to put your reasoning above the Church, then I will leave you to it.

 

[Siamus]

Mary speaks, very fittingly in the Revelations of Saint Bridget: “Know well that all praise of me is praise of my son.” Catholics venerate Mary knowing that Jesus is VERY pleased with the adoration given to the one being He loves the most, and in the full knowledge that she gives all the honor to her son anyway.

Where are we told that God the Father or Jesus is pleased with the adoration given to Mary?

Remember, God is not a respecter of persons, and that he is a jealous God.

 

[pablope]

Where are we told that God the Father or Jesus is pleased with the adoration given to Mary?

Remember, God is not a respecter of persons, and that he is a jealous God.

May I ask…how do you define adoration? When you say we catholics adore Mary…what do you mean when you say that?

And why do you say God is not a respecter of persons? What is your basis and why do you believe it is true? What do you mean?

 

[maryj]

Where are we told that God the Father or Jesus is pleased with the adoration given to Mary?

Remember, God is not a respecter of persons, and that he is a jealous God.

I have so many questions on why it is you think this…but my first shall be
Do you know what typology is?

 

[Christine85]

“True Devotion to the Blessed Virgin” by St Louis De Montfort discusses reasons for our love for Mary. God says honor mother and father. Jesus followed those commands. So he really loved Mary and Joseph.

m.catholicbible101.com/site/mobile?dm_path=%2Fmaryversusthedevil.htm&fw_sig_social=1&fw_sig_is_admin=0&fw_sig_access_token=58c65abdc08b40d0b28ca0f5460795dc1030a036&fw_sig_permissions=none&fw_sig_site=34661311&fw_sig_permission_level=0&fw_sig_premium=1&fw_sig_api_key=522b0eedffc137c934fc7268582d53a1&fw_sig_session_key=b20f61a220c4cbcd3c61aa03fe11cc28d9781e55c64079138f19b1adfba7226e-34661311&fw_sig=62f7e765f0868b1ea000a79f3ecf5989&fw_sig_url=http://www.catholicbible101.com/&fw_sig_tier=2&fw_sig_potential_abuse=1&fw_sig_time=1363049514589&fb_sig_network=fw#1313

 

[Christine85]

I guess you don’t read too well, nor understand what the Church is saying.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=10485193&postcount=112

Since you choose to put your reasoning above the Church, then I will leave you to it.

I study Mariology and we have discussed this and you’re wrong. My teacher is a Priest an professor of Mariology and said no we don’t worship Mary. Note in the Catechism all it says is devotion to her is intrinsic to Christian worship. It does not state we worship her.
Christian worship means worship of Christ it specifically says “devotion” to her is intrinsic to Christian worship. Please don’t go around stating something incorrect.

 

[kentuckyliz]

I do not worship her, but getting to know her and being her prayer partner has made me know and love Jesus even better than before. It was a major cause of growth in my spiritual life.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Where are we told that God the Father or Jesus is pleased with the adoration given to Mary?

Remember, God is not a respecter of persons, and that he is a jealous God.

Are you blind? Sorry but you are questioning the being I love the most’s adoration for Mary and I cannot stay calm. I told you specifically. The Revelations of Saint Bridget. Don’t throw some argument for sola scriptura in my face either, or you show me where it is in the Bible it says that Martin Luther had the authority to put up such a ridiculous rule.

God is no respecter of persons, well that simply means that he judges no less justly for an angel than for a demon (again, Revelations of Saint Bridget) or that he differentiates between races. You say he is a jealous God, well I can say with a 100% certainty that He is VERY angry with foolish Protestants who say that He loves Mary no more than any other of His saints given that it also says in the Revelations of Saint Bridget that He loves Mary more than the rest of creation put together.

 

[JM3]

I study Mariology and we have discussed this and you’re wrong. My teacher is a Priest an professor of Mariology and said no we don’t worship Mary. Note in the Catechism all it says is devotion to her is intrinsic to Christian worship. It does not state we worship her.
Christian worship means worship of Christ it specifically says “devotion” to her is intrinsic to Christian worship. Please don’t go around stating something incorrect.

Did you even read what I posted? In adrift’s post (139) he says

When Catholics refer to worship this is what they mean

Quote:
]WORSHIPAcknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

This is exactly what I posted in post 112;

The Church makes a distinction between worship as “special devotion” and worship as “adoration”.

“Special devotion”, from the CCC, and veneration are definitions of worship and this is how the Church uses them.

ok?

 

[adrift]

Are you blind? Sorry but you are questioning the being I love the most’s adoration for Mary and I cannot stay calm. I told you specifically. The Revelations of Saint Bridget. Don’t throw some argument for sola scriptura in my face either, or you show me where it is in the Bible it says that Martin Luther had the authority to put up such a ridiculous rule.

God is no respecter of persons, well that simply means that he judges no less justly for an angel than for a demon (again, Revelations of Saint Bridget) or that he differentiates between races. You say he is a jealous God, well I can say with a 100% certainty that He is VERY angry with foolish Protestants who say that He loves Mary no more than any other of His saints given that it also says in the Revelations of Saint Bridget that He loves Mary more than the rest of creation put together.

Perhaps English is not your first language and you can be excused.

worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration.

Adoration is given to God alone.

HYPERDULIA
The special veneration due to the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is substantially less than the cultus latria (adoration), which is due to God alone. But it is higher than the cultus dulia (veneration), due to angels and other saints. As the Church understands the veneration of Mary, it is to be closely associated but subordinated to that of her Son. “The various forms of piety towards the Mother of God, which the Church has approved within the limits of sound and orthodox doctrine according to the dispositions and understanding of the faithful, ensure that while the mother is honored, the Son through whom all things have their being and in whom it has pleased the Father that all fullness should dwell, is rightly loved and glorified and His commandments are observed” (Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium, VII, 66). (Etym. Latin hyperdulia, virtue of deep submission.)

 

[adrift]

Did you even read what I posted? In adrift’s post (139) he says

This is exactly what I posted in post 112;

“Special devotion”, from the CCC, and veneration are definitions of worship and this is how the Church uses them.

ok?

You ignore what you posted in 126. Where does “your” idea of worship fit into that definition?

What the OP is refering to is Worship as it pertains to God

2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence

Using this definition we do not worship Mary. I am sure you did not read what I wrote because if you did you would have seen that the Church is careful to use veneration in order not to be misunderstood. The only statement you came up with was from the early 1900’s when worship was understood differently that today as was shown in the dictionary definition that I provided. So do we worship Mary as a god. NO but you seem to insist that we do.

The word “worship” has undergone a change in meaning in English. It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.” Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word “worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.” …IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

I guess you don’t read too well, nor understand what the Church is saying.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost…&postcount=112

Since you choose to put your reasoning above the Church, then I will leave you to it.

Ad Hominem attack shows the weakness of the person who uses it.

 

[Slaney]

As a rededicated Christian, I have come to appreciate Catholicism through reading “Imitation of Christ,” by Kempis. I was not raised Catholic but in the Assembly of God, and I was familiar with the criticism of the Catholic faith.

As many of you have seen on this board, Catholicism is highly debated and rebuked in the Protestant churches and most Catholics simply do not “see” the justification of these rebukes.

For me, my main concern and suspicion of the Catholic faith is the emphasis of Mary: praying to and worship of. Recently, I was at an event that was centered on prayer and one prayer to Mary included terms like “Queen of Heaven, free of original sin, Perpetual Virgin,” etc. Not to mention that the Rosary was prayed 10 times, about 15 sets.

Worship is for God alone, we venerate Mary as we venerate the saints…

 

[Siamus]

I have so many questions on why it is you think this…but my first shall be
Do you know what typology is?

Well…typology…I do not really know of at all.

 

[Siamus]

Worship is for God alone, we venerate Mary as we venerate the saints…

I don’t see the difference in the definition of veneration and worship.

Isn’t veneration similar to “reverence?”

I am thoroughly confused with that aspect Catholicism.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

Perhaps English is not your first language and you can be excused.

Adoration is given to God alone.

Great. Just great. Helping a Protestant against a Catholic. LOOK into the intent of my post, TELL me if I’m trying to deviate from the worship that belongs to God.

 

[adrift]

I don’t see the difference in the definition of veneration and worship.

Isn’t veneration similar to “reverence?”

I am thoroughly confused with that aspect Catholicism.

Veneration respect or awe inspired by the dignity, wisdom, dedication, or talent of a person

Veneration and Reverence are very close in meaning

Definition of REVERENCE
1: honor or respect felt or shown : deference; especially : profound adoring awed respect

As I posted earlier, worship has changed meaning. to repeat

It comes from the Old English weorthscipe, which means the condition of being worthy of honor, respect, or dignity. To worship in the older, larger sense is to ascribe honor, worth, or excellence to someone, whether a sage, a magistrate, or God.

For many centuries, the term worship simply meant showing respect or honor, and an example of this usage survives in contemporary English. British subjects refer to their magistrates as “Your Worship,” although Americans would say “Your Honor.” This doesn’t mean that British subjects worship their magistrates as gods (in fact, they may even despise a particular magistrate they are addressing). It means they are giving them the honor appropriate to their office, not the honor appropriate to God.
**Outside of this example, however, the English term “worship” has been narrowed in scope to indicate only that supreme form of honor, reverence, and respect that is due to God. **This change in usage is quite recent. In fact, one can still find books that use “worship” in the older, broader sense. This can lead to a significant degree of confusion, when people who are familiar only with the use of words in their own day and their own circles encounter material written in other times and other places.

In Scripture, the term “worship” was similarly broad in meaning, but in the early Christian centuries, theologians began to differentiate between different types of honor in order to make more clear which is due to God and which is not.

As the terminology of Christian theology developed, the Greek term latria came to be used to refer to the honor that is due to God alone, and the term dulia came to refer to the honor that is due to human beings, especially those who lived and died in God’s friendship—in other words, the saints. Scripture indicates that honor is due to these individuals (Matt. 10:41b). A special term was coined to refer to the special honor given to the Virgin Mary, who bore Jesus—God in the flesh—in her womb. This term, hyperdulia (huper [more than]+ dulia = “beyond dulia”), indicates that the honor due to her as Christ’s own Mother is more than the dulia given to other saints. It is greater in degree, but still of the same kind. However, since Mary is a finite creature, the honor she is due is fundamentally different in kind from the latria owed to the infinite Creator.

All of these terms—latria, dulia, hyperdulia—used to be lumped under the one English word “worship.” Sometimes when one reads old books discussing the subject of how particular persons are to be honored, they will qualify the word “worship” by referring to “the worship of latria” or “the worship of dulia.” To contemporaries and to those not familiar with the history of these terms, however, this is too confusing.

Another attempt to make clear the difference between the honor due to God and that due to humans has been to use the words adore and adoration to describe the total, consuming reverence due to God and the terms venerate, veneration, and honor to refer to the respect due humans. Thus, Catholics sometimes say, “We adore God but we honor his saints.” …IMPRIMATUR: In accord with 1983 CIC 827
permission to publish this work is hereby granted.
+Robert H. Brom, Bishop of San Diego, August 10, 2004

The difference between the two is the intent of the person. If I look at Mary and say this is my god than it is worship and an idol. If I l look at Mary and say what a great gift God gave us than that is veneration.

 

[adrift]

Great. Just great. Helping a Protestant against a Catholic. LOOK into the intent of my post, TELL me if I’m trying to deviate from the worship that belongs to God.

I apologies. I hadn’t realized that you answered a person who called it adoration. I should have corrected him. Your intent may not have been to deviate from the worship of God. You did state

Sorry but you are questioning the being I love the most’s** adoration **for Mary and I cannot stay calm.

I was not defending anyone else but the misuse of the word adoration which is reserved to God alone.

 

[Yehuda_Dion]

I apologies. I hadn’t realized that you answered a person who called it adoration. I should have corrected him. Your intent may not have been to deviated from the worship of God. You did state

I was not defending anyone else but the misuse of the word adoration which is reserved to God alone.

Apology accepted. God bless you, friend.

 

[JM3]

So do we worship Mary as a god. NO but you seem to insist that we do.

I have never said that we worship Mary as God and I’m getting tired of you saying that I did.