Mary Worship

[Siamus]

The Word is Christ, not the Bible. And that admonition appears in the Book of Revelation and only refers to the revelation given to St. John within it. The NT hadn’t even been compiled when St. John wrote those words.

You need to understand what the Bible is and, perhaps more importantly, what it isn’t. I suggest you look into the actual history of the Bible and you will find that without the Catholic Church you wouldn’t have a Bible to read. I suggest reading this: Where We Got the Bible, Our Debt to the Catholic Church.

I know who the Word is, and then some.

(…who’s full of grace and truth?..)

 

[Siamus]

Nobody here believes in being baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Please excuse me…for my Protestant/Pentecostal thoughts.

I’ll be on my way.

 

[Literalist]

Does the Roman Catholic church teach that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is Mary?

And what is taught about the “woman” of Revelation 17:3-18; 18:1-21?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Please stop using words like worship when you know Catholics do not worship Mary and the saints. If you don’t, I am telling you again, we Catholics do not WORSHIP Mary or the saints. If you are judging based upon external appearances, then you should realise that is not a decent or Christian thing to do for we are told not to judge. You do not know the contents of our hearts. If you are just parroting what someone else said, then you owe it to yourself to understand and discover the basis of our honouring of the saints. Immerse yourself in 2000 years of Christian history if your history knowledge is limited. Quoting Bible only POV isn’t going to take you very far when Bible didn’t say it is going to be Bible only. No knowledgeable Catholics have ever believed that and despite years and years of debate over that, Protestants have not succeeded in convincing Sola Scriptura is in the Bible. Why are we so sure? Because the Bible came from us.

Please do pray for avoidance of self-deception. Mary is the closest thing we mankind has to God, literally speaking. She bore him, fed him, cleaned up his poop, comforted him. All the things a parent will do. And we are commanded to honour our parents. To what extent do you think our Lord will observe his own commandment?

Many decades ago, I remembered reading either a Newsweek or Time article in which a Protestant was depicted meeting Jesus when he died and Jesus was doing the introductions: Meet Dad, you should know him very well. I don’t believe you know my Mum…

How well do you think you know Jesus’s Mum? If you love someone so much, don’t you think you want to know everything about him and his family and his friends? Or are you going to tell Jesus that “those Catholics didn’t put that in the Bible. Therefore I didn’t bother?”

I love this explaination! How anyone can argue against is baffling.In my opinion,the fact that our Mother Mary is so absent from other Christian faiths is to their detriment. I cannot imagine NOT loving Mama Mary ,I so appreciate the fact that she is my spiritual mother.

 

[Slaney]

I read that a few years ago, something that many who slate the Catholic Church don’t seem to know…or choose to ignore…

 

[Literalist]

JH asked:

“And whom do you feel is the Whore of Babylon as you have introduced her to the thread, although these passages from Revelation do not seem particularly pertinent to this thread and the whore is symbolic to a large extent. Oh by the way, the Vatican Hill is not one of the traditional seven hills of Rome, just a piece of trivia I am fond of…”.

Actually I am more interested in the RCC interpretation of the “woman” of Revelation 12 … there are two “women” described in Revelation and I would like to know about both

I understand that MBG “woman”, great city] represents the entire lost world of humanity and particularly at the end of this present age … and that the 7 “hills” [mountains} are kingdoms [heads] of the beast 5 have fallen, and two are yet to come

What MBG is not is the RCC … MBG contains the religions of men, but not the RCC specifically as some teach … and the “great city” part of MBG is certainly not the Vatican … the description given in Revelation 18 is a much larger picture of a “great city” {civilization} on the earth at the time of the end of this current dispensation

The subject of this posting is Mary and I believe that the RCC tells that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is the same … I would like to see related scriptural support for this interpretation

 

[maryj]

Thanks for the response

Can you give the specific scripture that you refer to, or any others?

John 19:25-27

 

[Literalist]

Maryj

Are you asking for the scriptures directly related to the “woman” of Revelation 12 and the identification of the same?

 

[Literalist]

JH asked?

“As you are not interested in the Catholic interpretation of the other verses from Revelation you cited may I ask why you introduced them to the thread?”

Because Revelation uses the symbol of the “woman” to describe two different entities and I am first interested in why the RCC teaches that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is Mary

At the same time I want the members of the RCC on this thread to know that I do not consider the RCC membership alone to be the “woman” of Revelation 17 and 18 … there are some other sectors of professing Christianity that do focus upon this idea

 

[Literalist]

JH said:

“It is good to know you do not regard the Catholic Church as a creation of men”

Not really what I said … I am saying that the RCC is not specifically alone the “woman” of 17 and 18 as some of other religious persuasions teach

Many apostate sectors of professing Christianity are a part of MBG as well … and a number of these claim that the RCC alone is the “woman” of Revelation 17 and 18

I want to stick to the subject of the “woman” of Revelation 12 for now

 

[maryj]

Continued: Mary and Sacred scripture (refer back to post on typology)

There are three major types of mary
Eve
the ark of the covenant
queen mother

as they studied the bible, the early church fathers made rich use of typology. Romans 5:14 teaches that adam was a type of Christ The Fathers realized other individuals involved in the Fall had NT counterparts.
The devil, a fallen angel, brought words of death to Eve: the Angel Gabriel brought words of life to Mary. Eve, our mother in the flesh, disobeyed God and cooperated greatly in Adams sin, which caused the fall of the human race.
Mary obeyed God and contributed greatly to Christ’s redemptive mission. She was his mother and the perfect disciple.
Christ is the new Adam(1cor 15:45) Mary is the new Eve. After adam and eve had sinned, Genesis 3:15 prophesies a woman and her son who will be at total enmity(in complete opposition too) with the serpent(satan) and his descendents

“I will put enmity(total opposition) between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel” (NAB)

The womans son will crush the serpents head. Since the man who crushes the serpents head is obviously Jesus, the woman must be Mary. Who by the way has been granted,by God, enmity between her and the serpent. ENMITY, in complete opposition to evil and sin…what is the complete opposite of sin…sinless!!!

Genesis 3:15-17 the two teams
the fall team- Adam and Eve
the redemption team- Jesus and Mary

Quik overview, the OT describes women(types of mary) who crush Israels enemies(types of satan)
Judges 4:17-22 read about Jael… Judges 5:24 celebrates her; “Most blessed of women be Jael”
Judges 9:50-55 describes a woman who drops a milestone on the head of tyrannical King Abimelech, fracturing his…yup you guessed it his SKULL
Judith 12-13 delivers the Jewish people from the assyrian army by (guessed it again) beheading it’s commander-in-chief, with his own sword as he slept.
She is celebrated with the words;" you are blessed by the Most High God above all women on earth; and blessed be the Lord God…who has guided you to strike the head of the leader of our enemies" Judith 13:18

The praises of Jael and Judith anticipate Elizabeths praise of Mary in Luke 1:42…“Blessed are you among women” Notice that elizabeth connects mary with Jesus by IMMEDIATELY adding"and blessed is the fruit of your womb"

men also crushed heads in the OT
David(a type of Jesus) chops off Goliaths head with the giants sword 1 samuel. In the OT types of both Mary and Jesus(the woman and her seed) are shown crushing types of satan.
All four evangelists record that calvary means…“Skull place” Satan intended to strike Jesus with a lethal blow on the cross, but it proved to be a minor wound(you strike at his heel). Satan suffered the mortal wound(he will strike at your head) as Jesus destroyed the power of sin and death.

 

[Literalist]

JH

I am aware of much more than you might think regarding the Lord’s more sure word of prophecy

But for now I want to know about the “woman” of Revelation 12

… and I will answer Maryj if she confirms her request for me to give comprehensive scriptural support for demonstrating who the “woman” of Revelation 12 actually represents

 

[maryj]

Who was at Christ’s side on Calvary? MARY. What does Jesus call her? WOMAN. Mary is the new eve, she is the “woman” of Gen 3;15, the “woman” of John2 whose intercession at Cana launched Christ’s public ministry, the “woman” of John 19 at the foot of the cross, and the “woman” of revelation 12 who, with her sonJesus fights against Satan until the end. Throughout the Bible, it describes Jesus and Mary together crushing the head of the serpent.

 

[Literalist]

Maryj

Here are the reasons why Mary is not the “woman” of Revelation 12

This “woman” represents the nation of Israel [Genesis 37:10] … the 12 tribes [12 stars]

The Lord was born out of the nation of Israel after David’s line … Himself a Jew by His humanity [Revelation 5:5]

Revelation 12 describes a future time when a returned remnant part of Israel will be in the Land of Israel to experience the time of Jacob’s trouble [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12; Zechariah 12; 14]

The following passages of scripture are literal and future facts relating directly to Revelation 12:1; 12:6; and Revelation 12:13-14

The Lord is going to restore the kingdom to Israel

Isaiah 11
Ezekiel 36; 38; 39
Micah 4:1-13; 5:1-8
Zechariah 14:1-5
Matthew 24:15-16
Acts 1:6
Romans 11:1-36

 

[ricmat]

You said that the angel Gabriel is recorded as telling that one should venerate Mary and worship or communicate with her in some way today … I don’t find this in any scripture given by the Lord or Gabriel in God’s Word

Look to the words of Elizabeth…

42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

[Jesus is the blessed fruit of her womb. Mary is also blessed. Are you full of grace and blessed? Is any human so identified other than Mary. Not even Stephen who was “full of grace” at the time of his death was “always” full of grace, as is told to Mary. Gabriel changed Mary’s name to “full of grace” just like other key figures such as Abram and Jacob’s names were changed. Mary is in heaven as are many saints, and they are not dead, they are more alive than we are because they are with God. The prayers of a holy person are powerful indeed and who is more holy than the saints, Mary included? Mary interceded for “us” at Cana, and she continues to do so. That’s why we ask for her intercession.

43 And whence *is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

“Mother of my Lord” = Queen Mother as per the Davidic Kingdom on which Jesus’ kingdom is based.

48For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.

“All ages will call me blessed.” Do you call Mary blessed? How often? Is it a policy of your church to do so, and if so, how do they do it?

 

[pablope]

Maryj

Here are the reasons why Mary is not the “woman” of Revelation 12

This “woman” represents the nation of Israel [Genesis 37:10] … the 12 tribes [12 stars]

The Lord was born out of the nation of Israel after David’s line … Himself a Jew by His humanity [Revelation 5:5]

Revelation 12 describes a future time when a returned remnant part of Israel will be in the Land of Israel to experience the time of Jacob’s trouble [Jeremiah 30; Daniel 12; Zechariah 12; 14]

The following passages of scripture are literal and future facts relating directly to Revelation 12:1; 12:6; and Revelation 12:13-14

The Lord is going to restore the kingdom to Israel

Isaiah 11
Ezekiel 36; 38; 39
Micah 4:1-13; 5:1-8
Zechariah 14:1-5
Matthew 24:15-16
Acts 1:6
Romans 11:1-36

Well…since it mainly a matter of your interpretation and the CC’s…why do you think your interpretation is correct? Can you provide support from the early church writings that support your interpretation?

And if none…where did or who provided your interpretation?

 

[Della]

Does the Roman Catholic church teach that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is Mary?

Well, not as you state it. The chapter has more than one symbolic meaning. The woman crowned with twelve stars can be said to be the Church and/or Mary as well as Israel, from whom came both Jesus and Mary–remember, without Mary there is no Jesus. As the Second Eve, and the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary certainly fits the imagery. The Church also sees it as the Bride of Christ who suffers to bring the Gospel to the world. The Church does not see the Bible as a proof text, but rather as a witness to the truths given to it by Christ. So, it does not say that verses have only one interpretation, except in a few limited instances, but this is not one of them.

And what is taught about the “woman” of Revelation 17:3-18; 18:1-21?

Because the Church was being persecuted by pagan Rome, most bibical scholars say it’s a symbol for that. Scott Hahn has another take on it, he feels St. John is writing about Israel who rejected the Christ for 30 pieces of silver, thus making it the whore–an image of disobedient Israel used in several OT references.

It could not be the Church because the Church was being persecuted when St. John wrote it. Many of the first popes were martyred for the faith by Roman emperors, along with many others. Luther tried to make this image fit the Church because he was in rebellion against the pope, but it doesn’t wash, historically or scripturally.

 

[Lost_Wanderer]

Can any on this post give comprehensive scripture that requires a believer in Jesus Christ to pray to and communicate with Mary?

Can you tell me where the Church teaches I’m to exercise Marian devotion to remain Catholic?

I’m a Catholic but I don’t pray the Rosary and even think Fatima has an exceedingly outspoken fanbase. So far I have not received any letter of excommunication.

 

[pablope]

"The angel was god’s messenger those words were spoken by the Eternal Father. Angel Gabriel didn’t make that message up He just passed the message what was asked of him…

Scriptural proof about Catholic’s teaching on Mary are 100 percent authentic in the PDF below"

 

[Literalist]

JH asked:

And exactly what nation was the theotokos a part of?

This combination of two Greek words means “mother of god” … this idom is not recorded in any scripture of the Bible as stated

Was Mary a Jew?

Yes

But she was not raised immortal in the first century … there is no scriptural proof of this in scripture, and she did not flee into the wilderness as the “woman” described in Revelation 12 will do during the coming time of Jacob’s [Israel’s trouble] [Jeremiah 30; [Zechariah 14:1-5; Matthew 24:15-16; Revelation 12:6; 12:14]

This future believing remnant of the nation is certainly not Mary ,. and Israel is in the land today as an independent political entity after 2000 years of absence … in place to experience the coming time of Jacob’s trouble foretold by the Bible prophets

And one must understand that no man [or woman] has yet gone to heaven … none have done this … except Jesus Christ [John 3:13]

Those that are true followers of the Lord will not have this experience until His second coming [1 Corinthians 15:22-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18]

Assuming that Mary was a believer at her death, she is now one of the “dead in Christ” will be resurrected at His second coming

My point is that the “woman” of Revelation 12 is not Mary

This symbolic “woman” it that of the Israelite nation [Genesis 37:10]