Mary Worship

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Della said:

“Well, not as you state it. The chapter has more than one symbolic meaning. The woman crowned with twelve stars can be said to be the Church and/or Mary”

The “woman” of Revelation 12 is neither Mary, or the church

The “church” did not give birth to to the Lord
 
pablope asked:

Why do you think those in heaven are not alive?

Because the scriptures tell this truth

There are no humans in heaven yet [John 3:13] [1 Corinthians 15:28-58]

This is a scriptural fact from the Lord’s Word

I do not believe anything outside of the scriptures on this matter

Who told you that there are resurrected immortal humans in heaven?
 
Lost Wanderer asked:

"Can you tell me where the Church teaches I’m to exercise Marian devotion to remain Catholic?

I’m a Catholic but I don’t pray the Rosary and even think Fatima has an exceedingly outspoken fanbase. So far I have not received any letter of excommunication"

I don’t think you can be “Catholic” and remain outside of this dogma

I would suggest that you do not tell the Pope

I can say that Jesus Christ does not require one to pray to and or worship Mary

There is only one mediator given between God and man, and Jesus Christ is the One … He is your connection … nothing else works [1 Timothy 2:1-6]
 
Literalist said:
Lost Wanderer asked:

"Can you tell me where the Church teaches I’m to exercise Marian devotion to remain Catholic?

I’m a Catholic but I don’t pray the Rosary and even think Fatima has an exceedingly outspoken fanbase. So far I have not received any letter of excommunication"

I don’t think you can be “Catholic” and remain outside of this dogma

I would suggest that you do not tell the Pope

I can say that Jesus Christ does not require one to pray to and or worship Mary

There is only one mediator given between God and man, and Jesus Christ is the One … He is your connection … nothing else works [1 Timothy 2:1-6]
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There you go again with that WORSHIP business…at this point I heve to think you are intentionally being obtuse re the term worship…:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
JH

I have no desire to gain a following on this post for sure

The post is about Mary and I initially wanted to know the RCC position on this matter

If people ask me questions I should be able to answer just like you do and all of my answers will be supported by the scriptures of the Bible

I do not rely upon anything else for truth but the written Word of God
 
Lost_Wanderer said:
Can you tell me where the Church teaches I’m to exercise Marian devotion to remain Catholic?

I’m a Catholic but I don’t pray the Rosary and even think Fatima has an exceedingly outspoken fanbase. So far I have not received any letter of excommunication. :rolleyes:
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i thought the docturne that covers Mary was established in 1950
  • with the understanding that she did not die and ascended into heaven- ascension …
but with all the many Marian Apparitions of the Twentieth Century,

it would seem to get less confusing- can’t one of the visionaries ask her?

March 02, 2013 Message to Mirjana

“Dear children! Anew, in a motherly way, I am calling you not to be of a hard heart. Do not shut your eyes to the warnings which the Heavenly Father sends to you out of love. Do you love Him above all else? Do you repent for having often forgotten that the Heavenly Father, out of His great love, sent his Son to redeem us by the Cross? Do you repent for not yet having accepted the message? My children, do not resist the love of my Son. Do not resist hope and peace. Along with your prayer and fasting, by His cross, my Son will cast away the darkness that wants to surround you and come to rule over you. He will give you the strength for a new life. Living it according to my Son, you will be a blessing and a hope to all those sinners who wander in the darkness of sin. My children, keep vigil. I, as a mother, am keeping vigil with you. I am especially praying and watching over those whom my Son called to be light-bearers and carriers of hope for you - for your shepherds. Thank you.”
 
Literalist said:
Lost Wanderer asked:

"Can you tell me where the Church teaches I’m to exercise Marian devotion to remain Catholic?

I’m a Catholic but I don’t pray the Rosary and even think Fatima has an exceedingly outspoken fanbase. So far I have not received any letter of excommunication"

I don’t think you can be “Catholic” and remain outside of this dogma

I would suggest that you do not tell the Pope

I can say that Jesus Christ does not require one to pray to and or worship Mary

There is only one mediator given between God and man, and Jesus Christ is the One … He is your connection … nothing else works [1 Timothy 2:1-6]
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Well, ingenius…you cite 1tim 2 from v1, yet you do not post the verses from verse 1…

The passages prior to you passage also say this…

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So taking into account from passage 1…how do you now interpret verse 5 and 6, in light of the previous passages?
 
Literalist said:
JH

I have no desire to gain a following on this post for sure

The post is about Mary and I initially wanted to know the RCC position on this matter

If people ask me questions I should be able to answer just like you do and all of my answers will be supported by the scriptures of the Bible

I do not rely upon anything else for truth but the written Word of God
Click to expand...
You quoted from 1 Timothy, I shall do the same, not by my own interpretation, but that of which is the pillar and foundation of the truth

1 Timothy 3:15… the church is the pillar and foundation of the truth!
You wanted to know what the church teaches, and so that is what I have been trying to give you. It is not either/or, but both/and!
After all that I posted, can I get a straight answer from you…do you understand what the early church fathers understood about typology? Which I believe I satisfactorily brought to you via scripture.
 
adrift said:
As I have posted, Worship has changed meaninings. We call the honor to Mary as Superdulia. BUT the OP as he defined worship was to God alone. When I wrote that we, under this definition do not worship Mary you said that
On the contrary it is what the Church teaches. The Church does not teach that Mary is a god which is the OP’s definition. The Church does not teach that we honor Mary as a god but be do give her honor as I pointed out in Canon Law the Church refers to it as veneration.

Interesting that you just quote part of what I replied.
So I guess that this is the definition that you believe applies to Mary? Mary worshipped by her fans:shrug:

You had asked how the definition changed. I provided you with a 1913 Webster Dictionary definition. It wasn’t the same.

As defined in the OP we do not worship Mary, got that we don’t believe Mary is an idol.
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Catholics worship Mary.

The Catholic Church teaches that worship (special devotion, veneration) given to Mary is different from worship (adoration) that is given to God. The Second Vatican Council’s document Lumen Gentium explains this, as does the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Catholics worship Mary.

This does not mean that Mary is worshipped as God or a God or as an idol. No where in any of my posts did I say that Mary is worshipped as God or a God or as an idol, nor did I imply any such thing.

You can change the meaning of words as much as you wish. I will use the meaning of worship as the Catholic Church teaches, and uses, it.

Lastly, a caution. You can change the meanings of words so much that the truth can no longer be seen.
 
Actuallly thats not what the Church says…
The perfect example of this type of spiritual and apostolic life is the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Queen of Apostles, who while leading the life common to all here on earth, one filled with family concerns and labors, was always intimately united with her Son and in an entirely unique way cooperated in the work of the Savior. Having now been assumed into heaven, with her maternal charity she cares for these brothers of her Son who are still on their earthly pilgrimage and remain involved in dangers and difficulties until they are led into the happy fatherland.(7)*** All should devoutly venerate her and commend their life and apostolate to her maternal care***
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vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651118_apostolicam-actuositatem_en.html

Mary is not a mere option, Christ from the Cross commanded Her as our Mother, and all like the disciple should take Her into thier own lives, the Church is clear on this, we should not make it out to be other wise!
 
pablope asks:

"Well, ingenius…you cite 1tim 2 from v1, yet you do not post the verses from verse 1…

The passages prior to you passage also say this…

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So taking into account from passage 1…how do you now interpret verse 5 and 6, in light of the previous passages?"

The believer in Jesus Christ is to pray for all who need to come to the knowledge of the truth … and the only way that this petitioning can be done according to scripture is directly through the only mediator given between God and man, Jesus Christ
 
Literalist said:
pablope asks:

"Well, ingenius…you cite 1tim 2 from v1, yet you do not post the verses from verse 1…

The passages prior to you passage also say this…

I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

So taking into account from passage 1…how do you now interpret verse 5 and 6, in light of the previous passages?"

The believer in Jesus Christ is to pray for all who need to come to the knowledge of the truth … and the only way that this petitioning can be done according to scripture is directly through the only mediator given between God and man, Jesus Christ
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Jesus is not an intercessor as you state it here–he’s God after all–he has no need to offer individual prayers from us to God–he is God. What St. Paul is saying is not that no one can intercede for us in prayer except Jesus–that makes no sense–it would mean that you and I could not pray for one another or we’d be usurping Jesus’ mediation. So, that’s not what it means. It means that Jesus was the only one who mediated our redemption by satisfying God’s justice by his death on the cross. That’s all it means, not that no one can intercede for anyone else.

And Mary and the saints in heaven are not dead, they are alive. We know this because Jesus himself told us so:

Mark 12:26b-27 have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?
He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

Luke.20:38 “Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him.”

In Matthew 17 Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus to talk about his upcoming sufferings. How could they do that if the dead are insensible to us?

You are used to looking at these things through blinders, with only one possible interpretation, but that’s not good bibical exegesis nor is it how believers saw these things for 1500 years until Luther and the other so-called reformers. As I wrote before, the Bible does not interpret itself. Besides, you have to ignore many passages/verses in order to believe in the stripped down version of Christianity that you have embraced.
 
inChristAlone33 said:
“Jesus represents those who have placed their trust in Him—miserable sinners—before God’s throne of grace.” gotquestions.org/Jesus-mediator.html

As a Christian, you are to put your full faith and trust in Christ alone. For it is through Him, we made righteous and He only hears the prayers of the righteous (John 9:31). So, in fact, God listens to us because of the righteousness of our Mediator, Jesus Christ.

apart from me you can do nothing.(John 15:5) and this includes praying for others. In all things, Christ is our only good.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (ESV)
21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. 2 Corinthians 5:21)
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None of this is Sola Scriptura. We Catholics already put our full Faith in CHRIST. Protestantism is unbiblical.
 
RH said:

“A position the early Christians would have found odd. Sola Scriptura would have been an alien concept to them”

This is your response regarding my position that I only accept truth from the scriptures “alone” … and you imply that the early Christians of whom many were Israelites did not know the scriptures of the Lord’s Word

Be reminded of this [John 1:1-14; Revelation 19:11-13]

And this [Acts 17:10-12]

Here are the Lord’s own words: [Matthew 24:42; John 5:39; Revelation 22:18-19]

Do you think Paul as an early Christian thought this was an alien concept?

Here are his own words recorded in scripture: [2 Timothy 2:14-16; 3:1-17]

And do you think it and alien concept going forward to this very day?
 
Della said:

“Jesus is not an intercessor as you state it here–he’s God after all–he has no need to offer individual prayers from us to God–he is God”

I just gave you the scripture above that states that He is the only acceptable mediator between God and man … He is the only one that can do this … no one else … here is more scriptural evidence [Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25] … additional mediators are the ideas of those who look outside of the Bible

And you appear to reject the clear teaching of scripture that the God head is a trinity

"And Mary and the saints in heaven are not dead, they are alive. We know this because Jesus himself told us so:

He is not God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong."

I need the scriptures that you say Jesus told you about Mary and the saints being alive at this time

And He is the the God of the living who will gain eternal life, but not before His second coming [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58] … and the dead [unbelievers] will end up here [Revelation 20:11-15]

“In Matthew 17 Moses and Elijah appeared with Jesus to talk about his upcoming sufferings. How could they do that if the dead are insensible to us?”

The transfiguration on the mount is a vision given of the Lord’s future kingdom with Moses and Elijah included … both are awaiting their resurrections at His second coming

“You are used to looking at these things through blinders, with only one possible interpretation, but that’s not good bibical exegesis nor is it how believers saw these things for 1500 years until Luther and the other so-called reformers. As I wrote before, the Bible does not interpret itself. Besides, you have to ignore many passages/verses in order to believe in the stripped down version of Christianity that you have embraced.”

I have studied the scriptures for over 40 years including biblical exegesis of the prophetic time line

And I can tell you that scripture does interpret scripture … no doubt

By the way do not agree with reformation theology at all … those of the reformation did not understand Bible prophecy especially with regard to Israel [the reformers were anti-Semits]… and their view of the Pope and the RCC is also flawed for many reasons

And I do not ignore any scripture of the Bible … not one, all of it is God breathed [inspired] … it is when one goes outside of the Bible and adds the traditions of men that generates error and confusion
 
+JMJ+
Literalist said:
RH said:

“A position the early Christians would have found odd. Sola Scriptura would have been an alien concept to them”

This is your response regarding my position that I only accept truth from the scriptures “alone” … and you imply that the early Christians of whom many were Israelites did not know the scriptures of the Lord’s Word

Be reminded of this [John 1:1-14; Revelation 19:11-13]

And this [Acts 17:10-12]

Here are the Lord’s own words: [Matthew 24:42; John 5:39; Revelation 22:18-19]

Do you think Paul as an early Christian thought this was an alien concept?

Here are his own words recorded in scripture: [2 Timothy 2:14-16; 3:1-17]

And do you think it and alien concept going forward to this very day?
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Sola Scriptura is alien in early Christianity because of one simple fact: go early enough, and the early Christians didn’t even have the New Testament.

Can you find in the Bible which books are to be included in the canon of the Bible?

And who told you that the Bible is the Word of God, anyways? Then who told him/her? Then who told that guy/lady who told him/her? Then so on and so forth. Isn’t that tradition?
 
+JMJ+
Literalist said:
I have studied the scriptures for over 40 years including biblical exegesis of the prophetic time line

And I can tell you that scripture does interpret scripture … no doubt

By the way do not agree with reformation theology at all … those of the reformation did not understand Bible prophecy especially with regard to Israel [the reformers were anti-Semits]… and their view of the Pope and the RCC is also flawed for many reasons

And I do not ignore any scripture of the Bible … not one, all of it is God breathed [inspired] … it is when one goes outside of the Bible and adds the traditions of men that generates error and confusion
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And here is the meat of the problem of Protestantism: we do not care how long you or anyone have studied the Bible, but if you couldn’t agree with each other on what your doctrines are (“By the way do not agree with reformation theology at all…”) then your teachings are useless. Why would anyone want to be with you when the fruits of your approach to God (sola scriptura) sows discord among you, totally contrary to what Jesus wants (John 17:21)?
 
Literalist said:
“Jesus is not an intercessor as you state it here–he’s God after all–he has no need to offer individual prayers from us to God–he is God”
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So why then did Jesus say, " Anything you ask from the Father in my name will be given to you "?
 
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