J
Jeanne_S
Guest
She is not the original OP,the title I mentioned in my Question is the OP.
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M
maryj
Guest
Literalist, I am not the OP
L
Literalist
Guest
“She is not the original OP,the title I mentioned in my Question is the OP”
Neither am I the one who started the post
Neither am I the one who started the post
M
maryj
Guest
Literalist, this is not what typology is. Typology is a method of biblical interpretation whereby an element in the Old testament is seen to prefigure one found in the new testament. So you state that excesive use of typology can lead to “some very wrong conclusions with regards to the rendering of scripture” so show me how using typology as a method of biblical interpretation can be wrong in these cases
Jonah’s three days in the belly of the fish-foreshadowing Jesus’ three days in the tomb
the bronze serpent in Numbers-foreshadowed Jesus’ crucifixion
The flood of Noahs’ time-prefigurement of baptism
Adam is a “type” of Christ
And it is obvious that we must read the bible in the literal sense, all other senses of scripture-typological, moral and analogical are based upon the literal.
these examples show how the NT teaches that in the OT persons and events, we are to see doctrines that are made more explicit in the gospels. Can we agree upon that?
St. Paul calls the rock that followed the israelites in the desert “christ”, he did not say the rock was like christ, St. Paul says the rock was christ. He uses this language to stress that the relationship between a type and its NT fulfillment is more than a similarity.
And please don’t worry that you are offending me, I’m pretty tough…I’ve got six brothers!!!
L
Literalist
Guest
Pablope said:
"As I have asked you…can you explain the thousands of different understandings of the written Word?
All claim to be from the HS? But how do you prove which one is truth? How do you prove your understanding is indeed the one truth, and not just one among many?"
There are those who do interpret very much the same as I do, but all who study the scriptures are a different levels of understanding … some more advanced than others
… and I don’t have to “prove” anything to you … I will help anyone if the setting avails, but your attitude who prevent this
There are 1000s of views for sure, but you need to know that the Lord said this would be true [Matthew 7:13-14; 24:4-5]
I will say this again to you … seek His guidence and study yourself approved … this is the only way that you will find out the answer to your questioning … this is possible for anyone to do
Do not rely upon others for the task … you will be held personally responsible for your attention to this requirement
"As I have asked you…can you explain the thousands of different understandings of the written Word?
All claim to be from the HS? But how do you prove which one is truth? How do you prove your understanding is indeed the one truth, and not just one among many?"
There are those who do interpret very much the same as I do, but all who study the scriptures are a different levels of understanding … some more advanced than others
… and I don’t have to “prove” anything to you … I will help anyone if the setting avails, but your attitude who prevent this
There are 1000s of views for sure, but you need to know that the Lord said this would be true [Matthew 7:13-14; 24:4-5]
I will say this again to you … seek His guidence and study yourself approved … this is the only way that you will find out the answer to your questioning … this is possible for anyone to do
Do not rely upon others for the task … you will be held personally responsible for your attention to this requirement
L
Literalist
Guest
Maryj
I do understand the biblical concept of of types and shadows, and it is a valid part of one’s study and correct rendering of the scriptures for overview
However, one can delute the literal interpretation of the scriptures if taken to far and missapplied … I have seen this practice taken to the extreme and this has the capacity to greatly skew the intended meanings of the lynchpin themes of the Lord’s overall and comprehensive Word
All scripture should be interpreted literally because and if symbolism and figurative allegory is presented, you can find the literal meanings either within the context of the passage or in other scriptures
I do understand the biblical concept of of types and shadows, and it is a valid part of one’s study and correct rendering of the scriptures for overview
However, one can delute the literal interpretation of the scriptures if taken to far and missapplied … I have seen this practice taken to the extreme and this has the capacity to greatly skew the intended meanings of the lynchpin themes of the Lord’s overall and comprehensive Word
All scripture should be interpreted literally because and if symbolism and figurative allegory is presented, you can find the literal meanings either within the context of the passage or in other scriptures
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pablope
Guest
C
Credo_in_Deum
Guest
I’m sure this conversation has degenerated from the original subject but in case it hasn’t, I just wanted to mention to my protestant brothers that the Scriptures are in support of venerating Mary and they have been professing her important role in our salvation hisotry from Genesis to Revelations. Just something to think about. 
L
Literalist
Guest
pablope
“So are you saying the 1000 views are all true? Where did Christ say 1000 views are all truth?”
It is this kind of statement from you that is unacceptible to me
I said nothing about numerous views all being true … and neither did Jesus Christ say it by the related scriptures that gave you
You either cannot read and comprehend, or you are playing a game
Because of this I will no longer respond to you
“So are you saying the 1000 views are all true? Where did Christ say 1000 views are all truth?”
It is this kind of statement from you that is unacceptible to me
I said nothing about numerous views all being true … and neither did Jesus Christ say it by the related scriptures that gave you
You either cannot read and comprehend, or you are playing a game
Because of this I will no longer respond to you
A
adrift
Guest
No you didn’t say they were true just because you acknowledged that they exist but that still leaves the question How do you know which views are correct?
How do you know who is the false prophet?
FYI
It would be easier reading your post if you would use the quote feature.
M
maryj
Guest
what I’m reading here from you, is that you believe that typology is a valid way of interpreting scripture. And I also stated that the catholic church teaches us that we are to first read scripture in the literal sense, but there is also other ways to read scripture, which you agree, in that, some scripture uses figurative and symbolic ways of teaching. Thus using context of the passage OR in other scripture…thus typology. The New Testament lies hidden in the Old and the Old testament is unveiled in the New. If we read the early church fathers, like St. Justin and St. Irenaeus we can see they were quick to realize this. All Marian beliefs, doctrines, can be found in OT types of Mary…Eve, the ark of the covenant, and Queen mother. Is this taking “it” to the extreme? I don’t believe so,nor does the church, if so many Old testament figures and situations can be found to be types of New testament figures, that teach us doctrines, how is it impossible and extreme that there are not “types” in the OT that teach us of" The Mother of my Lord"…by the way that’s biblical. “All” genertions will call her Blessed!
May God Bless you, and may Jesus Christ be praised!!
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pablope
Guest
P
Philthy
Guest
I’ll expound on what others have pointed out to you:
Claiming to “seek His guidance and study yourself approved” is just another way of rationalizing your disagreements with others who have done exactly what you have done and who happen to disagree with you. Claiming to have studied yourself approved is based on nothing but your personal veracity which, as it turns out, is meaningless in the context of this discussion. Many heretics have done the same, including those you have rebuked.
Furthermore, your claim to “not rely on others” demonstrates that you still do not recognize your own hypocrisy. You claim that early Christians had letters of Peter, James, Paul and others. How do you know this?? Is it not the testimony of others? Or did you “study yourself approved” in claiming to know each of the books you claim as the “word of God”? Of course not. The truth is that you did not and could not - you - we - are hopeless without accepting the testimony of others in knowing that the books contained in our Bibles are truly Sacred Scripture.
Blessings Lone Ranger!
L
Literalist
Guest
Pilthy response above:
My comments:
You and I will just have to disagree Phlthy
But I have to tell you again that the early church had every letter sent to them … and these Epistles are incorporated in the NT … one who reads them learns that the writers addressed these inspired components of God’s Word directly to those who received them
Here is a good sample for you to read, just like the early church at Rome did … before Paul arrived:
Romans
1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Read them all … there are several in the NT
And I must remind you of this:
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
My comments:
You and I will just have to disagree Phlthy
But I have to tell you again that the early church had every letter sent to them … and these Epistles are incorporated in the NT … one who reads them learns that the writers addressed these inspired components of God’s Word directly to those who received them
Here is a good sample for you to read, just like the early church at Rome did … before Paul arrived:
Romans
1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
1:2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
1:6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;
1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.
1:11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
Read them all … there are several in the NT
And I must remind you of this:
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
1:12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks;
1:13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
1:14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
1:15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
Revelation
1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
P
pablope
Guest
Really…and how do you know that? Can you show, without the printing press, how every letter and gospel was copied?
And with the roman persecution…who destroyed any christian writing they could get a hold of, how could each letter be distributed to each location? and with ealry christians…who very few could read and write…how could they spend time to sit down and copy each letter?
And who incorporated them into the NT?
L
Literalist
Guest
Just a reminder pab
I have decided to cease from response to you
When I tell you something I mean it
I have decided to cease from response to you
When I tell you something I mean it
P
pablope
Guest
No worry…the question is not only for you…but others who read the thread…and again, no worry…others will ask the same question I asked…
I
inChristAlone33
Guest
In my absence, my motive for withdrawing from this discussion has been judged incorrectly. My time of reflection and prayer was motivated by God and His Word: “test everything that is said.” 1 Thessalonians 5:21. We test in order to know the truth. In examining the claims expressed in this thread, I felt it necessary to study the Bible (specifically on salvation) and research both Catholic and Protestant doctrine more closely. Ultimately, the search for truth will come down to final Authority and that is where two paths diverge: Authority to both Scripture and tradition (Catholic) and Scripture alone (Protestant). The risk of choosing one path over the other is a matter of life and death. According to the Catholic Church, any deliberate separation from its unity results in “no salvation” (catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church)
For a catholic, the Bible does not claim itself to be “all sufficient,” therefore, it is not. But, what is the implication here? That there are certain Christian doctrines only revealed through the catholic faith? Oh! What a spirit of pride and superiority one puts on when he believes himself righteous through anything else but Christ Himself!
Note that Paul reminds us that “no one is declared righteous by works of the law,” because it is natural for man to assume he is good, not in need of a Savior.
Finally, most importantly, it is written that “righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.”
Charles Spurgeon put it this way: “Let this be to you the mark of true Gospel preaching - where Christ is everything, and the creature is nothing; where it is salvation all of grace, through the work of the Holy Spirit applying to the soul the precious blood of Jesus.”
I have poured over many debates found on this forum that only results in fruitless division. That is neither my goal nor my intent. It is not about knowledge because knowledge without fear of God is void (Proverbs 1:7).
In regards to the thread, “Mary Worship,” I have received responses that confirm many things of Mary that is not Biblical. For me, it comes down to Mary’s prayer in Luke: my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.” Only sinners need a Savior. I trust God’s Word when it gives no exaggerated adoration, worship or mention of Mary. I trust that if Mary was to be prayed to, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary was sinless, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary is “our hope, our sweetness,” the Bible would say so.
When I read God’s Word, none of this is present. Instead, just like Mary demonstrated, our focus should be directly on Christ, our Savior.
I have read other threads on this forum concerning Mary and debate proves fruitless. I have simply understood that Christ changes us. I have prayed (and will continue) that God’s wisdom and revelation will touch each of you and I ask for your prayers as well. I have created a thread, located below, that is simply a Q&A and I would like to see you all respond!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10503750#post10503750
God Bless!
For a catholic, the Bible does not claim itself to be “all sufficient,” therefore, it is not. But, what is the implication here? That there are certain Christian doctrines only revealed through the catholic faith? Oh! What a spirit of pride and superiority one puts on when he believes himself righteous through anything else but Christ Himself!
- No one is righteous
Note that Paul reminds us that “no one is declared righteous by works of the law,” because it is natural for man to assume he is good, not in need of a Savior.
Finally, most importantly, it is written that “righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith.”
Charles Spurgeon put it this way: “Let this be to you the mark of true Gospel preaching - where Christ is everything, and the creature is nothing; where it is salvation all of grace, through the work of the Holy Spirit applying to the soul the precious blood of Jesus.”
I have poured over many debates found on this forum that only results in fruitless division. That is neither my goal nor my intent. It is not about knowledge because knowledge without fear of God is void (Proverbs 1:7).
In regards to the thread, “Mary Worship,” I have received responses that confirm many things of Mary that is not Biblical. For me, it comes down to Mary’s prayer in Luke: my spirit rejoices in God, my Savior.” Only sinners need a Savior. I trust God’s Word when it gives no exaggerated adoration, worship or mention of Mary. I trust that if Mary was to be prayed to, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary was sinless, the Bible would say so. I trust that if Mary is “our hope, our sweetness,” the Bible would say so.
When I read God’s Word, none of this is present. Instead, just like Mary demonstrated, our focus should be directly on Christ, our Savior.
I have read other threads on this forum concerning Mary and debate proves fruitless. I have simply understood that Christ changes us. I have prayed (and will continue) that God’s wisdom and revelation will touch each of you and I ask for your prayers as well. I have created a thread, located below, that is simply a Q&A and I would like to see you all respond!
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=10503750#post10503750
God Bless!
N
nuntym
Guest
+JMJ+
Oh really? Show me that list in Scripture.
P
PRmerger
Guest
Literalist, this is a man-made tradition that you’ve been duped into believing. :sad_yes:
You heard a (fallible) man say this, and perhaps he heard another (fallible) man say this, but no one ever read: “all scripture should be interpreted literally” in a single page of the Bible.
As such, it is a man-made tradition.
Now, Catholic proclaim that the Scriptures should be interpreted literally, but not in a literalist way. It’s a nuance of profound import.
forums.wordsfree.org/index.php?topic=1011.0
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