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Siamus
Guest
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pablope
Guest
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PRmerger
Guest
As Jharek says, your beliefs are courtesy of the Catholic Church.
Incidentally, you are following a man-made tradition when you say “my beliefs are based on the Bible” because, as you know, the Bible never commands you to make this profession.
T
Tantum_ergo
Guest
Well, he treasures ONE thing inherited from the Catholic Church.
It is astonishing to me that people such as he will unhesitatingly accept the Church’s authority in AD 380 (well after “Constantine”) to determine the canon of the Bible, yet ‘jibe’ at other Church decisions. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ commissioned a Bible or guaranteed inerrancy of the Bible. . .yet people believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (which the Church AGAIN has authoritatively taught without it being ‘in the Bible’ so there is ANOTHER example which nonCatholics will accept Church authority on!). . .
And the same people who tout ‘Bible alone’ refuse to accept the 2000 year Christian teaching (yes, guys, the ORTHODOX accept this too and even many of the first protestants) regarding the Real Presence in the Eucharist AND things like the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Martin LUTHER accepted the PV.
Henry VIII believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
It’s really a ‘pick-and-choose’ mentality which separates protestants from Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The more ANY Christian decides that he will accept “THIS” teaching or “THAT” interpretation, the farther he goes from the authentic Christianity of the Catholics and Orthodox. . and that is the true tragedy of protestantism. . .
It is astonishing to me that people such as he will unhesitatingly accept the Church’s authority in AD 380 (well after “Constantine”) to determine the canon of the Bible, yet ‘jibe’ at other Church decisions. Nowhere in the Bible does it say Christ commissioned a Bible or guaranteed inerrancy of the Bible. . .yet people believe in the inerrancy of the Bible (which the Church AGAIN has authoritatively taught without it being ‘in the Bible’ so there is ANOTHER example which nonCatholics will accept Church authority on!). . .
And the same people who tout ‘Bible alone’ refuse to accept the 2000 year Christian teaching (yes, guys, the ORTHODOX accept this too and even many of the first protestants) regarding the Real Presence in the Eucharist AND things like the perpetual virginity of Mary.
Martin LUTHER accepted the PV.
Henry VIII believed in the Real Presence in the Eucharist.
It’s really a ‘pick-and-choose’ mentality which separates protestants from Catholic and Orthodox Christians. The more ANY Christian decides that he will accept “THIS” teaching or “THAT” interpretation, the farther he goes from the authentic Christianity of the Catholics and Orthodox. . and that is the true tragedy of protestantism. . .
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Siamus
Guest
The Catholic church devised the bible?
John 14:2
In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
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PRmerger
Guest
The Catholic Church discerned for you and me what books where theopneustos, and what books were not.
Do you not agree that the ONLY way you know that the letter to the Hebrews is inspired is because the Catholic Church told you?
Or is there some other way you are proposing that you know this to be inspired?
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pablope
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Apolojez
Guest
The books of the law (also known as the Torah or Pentateuch—Genesis-Deuteronomy) were acknowledged as early as 2 Kings 22. The prophets were identified as Scripture by the end of the second century BC. The Psalms were accepted, but the remaining books varied depending on Jewish sect. The rabbinical school of the Pharisees in Jamnia arrived at a list of twenty-four books, which equate to the thirty-nine books of the Protestant OT.
The Jews in Egypt translated their choices of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek in the second century before Christ. This translation of 46 books, called the Septuagint, had wide use in the Roman world because most Jews lived far from Palestine in Greek cities. Many of these Jews spoke only Greek.
The early Christian Church was born into this world. The Church, with its bilingual Jews and more and more Greek-speaking Gentiles, used the books of the Septuagint as its Bible. Remember the early Christians were just writing the documents what would become the NT. After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition from the fledgling Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.
The process for recognizing and collecting the books of the NT began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the NT books were recognized as inspired. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the OT (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter referred to Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight NT books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).
The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, compiled in A.D. 170, which included all of the NT books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) concluded that only the OT (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the NT were to be read in the churches. The Councils of Hippo (A.D. 393) and Carthage (A.D. 397) reaffirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.
The principles used by the councils to determine whether a NT book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit were fourfold.** First**, the author must be an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle. Second, the book must have been accepted by the body of Christ at large. Third, the book had to contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching. Finally, the book had to bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit as the divine Author. Most importantly, however, it must be recognized that it was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible.
This is how you got your bible. From the Catholic Church.
J
JustaServant
Guest
So what does this passage have anything to do with the Bible?
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maryj
Guest
I was just praying the Rosary and these posts came to mind…never did get an answer from literalist as to why Jesus said this from the cross. Praying for you!!
G
Goya
Guest
Excellent points.
Here’s a fun little exercise to take up with protestants–I’ve never so much as had a single protestant even dignify the question with even an attempt at an answer:
***At what specific point in time–or specific event–between 382 AD and 1517 AD–do you claim that the Catholic Church somehow lost the very same authority she used to determine which books comprised the Bible? ***
Another fun one (again, never so much as dignified with an attempt at a response–just deviation tactics):
Christ prophesized a lot in the Gospels. Sola scriptura is pretty darn significant a doctrine. The Reformation is was a pretty darn significant change of course. Where is sola scriptura prophesized in the Bible? Where is the reformation prophesized? For that matter, where is the Bible even prophesized?
One would think that Christ would have given us some kind of a heads up there, if these were ever part of His Plan.
Needlesss to say, there is plenty of prophecy for the Catholic Church.
One last fun one:
Was Martin Luther a prophet? Did he even pretend, or claim to be such? Yet isn’t the degree of deviation from the existing Church as it grew organically, which was implemented by Luther, tantamount in degree, to prophecy? i.e.–wouldn’t such a deviation from Revelation, require genuine prophecy?
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stewstew03
Guest
Excellent summary, Apolojez.The books of the law (also known as the Torah or Pentateuch—Genesis-Deuteronomy) were acknowledged as early as 2 Kings 22. The prophets were identified as Scripture by the end of the second century BC. The Psalms were accepted, but the remaining books varied depending on Jewish sect. The rabbinical school of the Pharisees in Jamnia arrived at a list of twenty-four books, which equate to the thirty-nine books of the Protestant OT.
The Jews in Egypt translated their choices of the Hebrew Scriptures into Greek in the second century before Christ. This translation of 46 books, called the Septuagint, had wide use in the Roman world because most Jews lived far from Palestine in Greek cities. Many of these Jews spoke only Greek.
The early Christian Church was born into this world. The Church, with its bilingual Jews and more and more Greek-speaking Gentiles, used the books of the Septuagint as its Bible. Remember the early Christians were just writing the documents what would become the NT. After the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 AD, with increasing persecution from the Romans and competition from the fledgling Christian Church, the Jewish leaders came together and declared its official canon of Scripture, eliminating seven books from the Septuagint.
The process for recognizing and collecting the books of the NT began in the first centuries of the Christian church. Very early on, some of the NT books were recognized as inspired. Paul considered Luke’s writings to be as authoritative as the OT (1 Timothy 5:18; see also Deuteronomy 25:4 and Luke 10:7). Peter referred to Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Peter 3:15-16). Clement of Rome mentioned at least eight NT books (A.D. 95). Ignatius of Antioch acknowledged about seven books (A.D. 115). Polycarp, a disciple of John the apostle, acknowledged 15 books (A.D. 108). Later, Irenaeus mentioned 21 books (A.D. 185). Hippolytus recognized 22 books (A.D. 170-235).
The first “canon” was the Muratorian Canon, compiled in A.D. 170, which included all of the NT books except Hebrews, James, and 3 John. The Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363) concluded that only the OT (along with the Apocrypha) and the 27 books of the NT were to be read in the churches. The Councils of Hippo (A.D. 393) and Carthage (A.D. 397) reaffirmed the same 27 books as authoritative.
The principles used by the councils to determine whether a NT book was truly inspired by the Holy Spirit were fourfold.** First**, the author must be an apostle or have a close connection with an apostle. Second, the book must have been accepted by the body of Christ at large. Third, the book had to contain consistency of doctrine and orthodox teaching. Finally, the book had to bear evidence of high moral and spiritual values that would reflect a work of the Holy Spirit as the divine Author. Most importantly, however, it must be recognized that it was God, and God alone, who determined which books belonged in the Bible.
This is how you got your bible. From the Catholic Church.
[insert pithy PRmerger gif]
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PRmerger
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stewstew03
Guest
perfect!
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Literalist
Guest
Maryj said:
“I was just praying the Rosary and these posts came to mind…never did get an answer from literalist as to why Jesus said this from the cross. Praying for you!!”
What the Lord said about Mary in the passage of scripture you quote and offer simply does not substantiate the view that has been taught to you by the RCC
“I was just praying the Rosary and these posts came to mind…never did get an answer from literalist as to why Jesus said this from the cross. Praying for you!!”
What the Lord said about Mary in the passage of scripture you quote and offer simply does not substantiate the view that has been taught to you by the RCC
P
PRmerger
Guest
Either way, Literalist, you submit to the authority of the Catholic Church each and every time you quote from the New Testament, right?
For there is no other way that you know that, say, the letter to the Hebrews is inspired except through the authority of the CC.
Unless you can tell us some* other way you know that it’s theopneustos*?
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pablope
Guest
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Literalist
Guest
I do not submit to the authority of the RCC [or any other religious organization for that matter and never will … I only believe in the inspired scriptures of the Bible alone, and not the fabricated traditions of the RCC
And I only believe in and follow Jesus alone [John 3:16-18]
When Jesus said “see your mother” He was speaking to His unbelieving Jewish half brothers who were present at the cross [John 7:3-5;19:25-27]
So you and I will not agree upon much because you accept the traditional teachings of the RCC and I do not … I do not believe that RCC tradition and the scriptures line up together same as you do for many reasons
The bottom line is this … when you get to the end of your journey in this temporal life and have nothing to show [no human will have any thing to boast about], it is going to be all about who you know … Jesus Christ [Matthew 7:21-23]
This should be your primary focus … keep the faith … He is coming to the earth again … could be before this day is over … make certain that you are ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]
And I only believe in and follow Jesus alone [John 3:16-18]
When Jesus said “see your mother” He was speaking to His unbelieving Jewish half brothers who were present at the cross [John 7:3-5;19:25-27]
So you and I will not agree upon much because you accept the traditional teachings of the RCC and I do not … I do not believe that RCC tradition and the scriptures line up together same as you do for many reasons
The bottom line is this … when you get to the end of your journey in this temporal life and have nothing to show [no human will have any thing to boast about], it is going to be all about who you know … Jesus Christ [Matthew 7:21-23]
This should be your primary focus … keep the faith … He is coming to the earth again … could be before this day is over … make certain that you are ready [Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10; 3:15-19]
P
PRmerger
Guest
Then who told you that the letter to the Hebrews is theopneustos, if not the Catholic Church, Literalist?
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